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13 minutes ago, spudski said:

We can agree to disagree. I use all forms of information to come to my own conclusions.

These were just plucked.

I have no political views on covid.

I distrust all politicians.

I distrust mainstream media owned by powerful people who decide what news we see, for their own agenda.

I distrust paid up scientists owned by the Government.

I look for information across all forms, from as many neutral 'experts' as possible...which is hard, because most have personal agendas.

If you actually believe shutting down the world like we have, has benefited mankind as a whole, long term, and the consequences we will have to try to live with afterwards, is a good thing, then thats your prerogative.

I distrust the figures being banded about and I can't see how putting in all the silly rules and regs we have in place, that contradict one another helps. We are sheep following regs that make no sense what's so ever. 

For what end?

This isn't going away...it's here forever. 

I've no political leanings...the two videos were put up just to show that others disagree with the government information, and that others in the same party are discrediting the science and figures of their own and starting to make noise about it.

So again zero actual discussion on what you were saying. Nobody is talking about any of that stuff above. We all know people have agendas etc. and the government are pretty incompetent.

You're not thinking about what others are saying or thinking for yourself because you're not responding to the actual points related to what you said.

Whether you trust politicians or not is irrelevant to what you've said and posted about COVID. It just sounds foolish if you don't back it up.

I can see one sheep here - the one following widely debunked youtube videos.

"Do your own research"... don't make me laugh.

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13 minutes ago, spudski said:

We can agree to disagree. I use all forms of information to come to my own conclusions.

These were just plucked.

I have no political views on covid.

I distrust all politicians.

I distrust mainstream media owned by powerful people who decide what news we see, for their own agenda.

I distrust paid up scientists owned by the Government.

I look for information across all forms, from as many neutral 'experts' as possible...which is hard, because most have personal agendas.

If you actually believe shutting down the world like we have, has benefited mankind as a whole, long term, and the consequences we will have to try to live with afterwards, is a good thing, then thats your prerogative.

I distrust the figures being banded about and I can't see how putting in all the silly rules and regs we have in place, that contradict one another helps. We are sheep following regs that make no sense what's so ever. 

For what end?

This isn't going away...it's here forever. 

I've no political leanings...the two videos were put up just to show that others disagree with the government information, and that others in the same party are discrediting the science and figures of their own and starting to make noise about it.

 

Dave...the majority of Politicians are self indulgent cocks...see my explanation above ?

The problem I have is firstly you distrust mainstream media (fair enough) but you trust beyond question a random youtube video?

Second highlight, I personally believe is a valid view to hold. Whether I agree or not doesn't matter, I think people are perfectly entitled to believe that the relatively small loss of life doesn't make up for the millions of lives impacted by the lockdown and the continuing restrictons. The problem is attaching nonsense videos to prove a point just discredits the argument and causes further divide.

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38 minutes ago, Notbarrymanc said:

No one thinks that this is for the betterment of the world. No one is benefiting from this situation. That’s the whole point, people are sacrificing to save the lives of those who will die if they catch COVID.
 

My wife’s job and my own are on the line and could well be lost, at the disruption of my son and my unborn child’s future, but of course I’ll go along with that, because the alternative is that my parents and thousands of other elderly and vulnerable people die.

As you’ve seen, other vulnerable people may die as a result of overreacting to COVID, which is incredibly sad, but it’s two evils and we won’t know which was the better evil until we come out the other side. 
 

 

The solution is to isolate the vulnerable.

Carry on as much as normal and wear masks and distance.

We won't be coming out the other side...that is the point.

Everyone agrees it's here to stay, like flu.

It will be here forever...it's not going to go away. We have to live with it.

No magic vaccine is going to come along and make it vanish. 

The effects of business closing and people being unemployed will far outway what's happening now.

The vulnerable need to be protected. 

The likelihood of the majority dieing from it unless they have underlying health issues is very remote. Look at the stats.

We need to build Immunity.

 

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9 minutes ago, spudski said:

The solution is to isolate the vulnerable.

Carry on as much as normal and wear masks and distance.

We won't be coming out the other side...that is the point.

Everyone agrees it's here to stay, like flu.

It will be here forever...it's not going to go away. We have to live with it.

No magic vaccine is going to come along and make it vanish. 

The effects of business closing and people being unemployed will far outway what's happening now.

The vulnerable need to be protected. 

The likelihood of the majority dieing from it unless they have underlying health issues is very remote. Look at the stats.

We need to build Immunity.

 

Yeah I’m not sure that everyone does agree it’s here to stay. It’s not like the flu, of which there are thousands of different strands. Covid 19 is one strand of the coronavirus, which is vaccinable (made up word yolo), hence the many billions being spent in finding a vaccine. 

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21 minutes ago, spudski said:

The solution is to isolate the vulnerable.

Carry on as much as normal and wear masks and distance.

We won't be coming out the other side...that is the point.

Everyone agrees it's here to stay, like flu.

It will be here forever...it's not going to go away. We have to live with it.

No magic vaccine is going to come along and make it vanish. 

The effects of business closing and people being unemployed will far outway what's happening now.

The vulnerable need to be protected. 

The likelihood of the majority dieing from it unless they have underlying health issues is very remote. Look at the stats.

We need to build Immunity.

 

No, that’s not the solution.  A solution is to protect the vulnerable.

You can do that by minimising spread.  You can minimise spread by having an effective track and trace so that you can isolate those with the virus, and those in recent contact.

Through the earlier “lockdown” phases (I’m not gonna go into what constituted lockdown) we got better control on spread.  At that point an effective (we didn’t need world leading bollax) track and trace solution. would have been able to start to pick up cases, identify localised hotspots, etc.  That solution needed local tracers, links to GPS, PHE, etc, not effin’ Serco.  The app was not the be all and end all, and I actually agree with Hancock that should’ve been the cherry on the cake.

Unfortunately (crap word) they didn’t bake the right cake in the first place, but that’s another story.

With manageable numbers a proper T&T could be efficient.  They didn’t need 25k contact tracers, because the numbers of cases outside of the likes of care homes and meat packing plants were smaller.  PHE / Local Health were picking up 90% of cases, because they could pick up e.g. 300 cases in one phone call, because they applied to one location.  

(But T&T was given to Serco - to siphon millions of pounds out of public funds to their mates! Serco’s performance is abysmal.  My mate made 2 calls in 4 months!  I’ll stop on that point there).

So back to numbers bring under semi-control.  Rather than just monitor for a short period, Johnson - the bull in a China shop, started unlocking.  T&T wasn’t ready for what was a gradual increase in cases...and now even less ready now we are back to thousands of cases per day.

I actually think we need to go back into lockdown to try to get us back to where we were pre-summer holidays.  Get T&T working and go from there.  That’s gonna be very difficult for the population to accept.  But the government needs to be accountable for unlocking too early without the correct processes in place.

The 50-60 page “alert level and phased unlocking” document was bloody awful. It had no measures, and the woolly criteria in it, e.g. R < 1 was changed to another R once that didn’t suit their removal of lockdown.

They have failed us....but want to say it’s the public’s fault.

 

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27 minutes ago, spudski said:

We need to build Immunity

Sadly, of the various strains of Covid19 none appear to produce strong or enduring immunity responses. That's why an artificial stimulus is being sought.

Even should one have a strong immune response that doesn't prevent one from transmitting the virus, it's physical measures that prevent the spread.

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22 minutes ago, Notbarrymanc said:

Covid 19 is one strand of the coronavirus, which is vaccinable

Mankind has yet to develop a vaccine to counter the spread of ANY form of Corona virus. Never been done; which questions why Covid19 should differ?

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

No, that’s not the solution.  A solution is to protect the vulnerable.

You can do that by minimising spread.  You can minimise spread by having an effective track and trace so that you can isolate those with the virus, and those in recent contact.

Through the earlier “lockdown” phases (I’m not gonna go into what constituted lockdown) we got better control on spread.  At that point an effective (we didn’t need world leading bollax) track and trace solution. would have been able to start to pick up cases, identify localised hotspots, etc.  That solution needed local tracers, links to GPS, PHE, etc, not effin’ Serco.  The app was not the be all and end all, and I actually agree with Hancock that should’ve been the cherry on the cake.

Unfortunately (crap word) they didn’t bake the right cake in the first place, but that’s another story.

With manageable numbers a proper T&T could be efficient.  They didn’t need 25k contact tracers, because the numbers of cases outside of the likes of care homes and meat packing plants were smaller.  PHE / Local Health were picking up 90% of cases, because they could pick up e.g. 300 cases in one phone call, because they applied to one location.  

(But T&T was given to Serco - to siphon millions of pounds out of public funds to their mates! Serco’s performance is abysmal.  My mate made 2 calls in 4 months!  I’ll stop on that point there).

So back to numbers bring under semi-control.  Rather than just monitor for a short period, Johnson - the bull in a China shop, started unlocking.  T&T wasn’t ready for what was a gradual increase in cases...and now even less ready now we are back to thousands of cases per day.

I actually think we need to go back into lockdown to try to get us back to where we were pre-summer holidays.  Get T&T working and go from there.  That’s gonna be very difficult for the population to accept.  But the government needs to be accountable for unlocking too early without the correct processes in place.

The 50-60 page “alert level and phased unlocking” document was bloody awful. It had no measures, and the woolly criteria in it, e.g. R < 1 was changed to another R once that didn’t suit their removal of lockdown.

They have failed us....but want to say it’s the public’s fault.

 

Isolating is a way of protecting Dave.

Track and Trace doesn't just pick up C19...it picks up other forms of the Corona virus too...it doesn't just isolate C19.

So you are asking people to isolate for 14 days, then go back outside if tested positive. Even though they may never had had C19.

How long does that scenario go on for? It would be never ending as there are so many different types of Corona viruses.

The vulnerable with underlying health issues, like my mother and father will never be totally safe. It's here...like the flu...it's not going away. 

Unfortunately these vulnerable people have been put in an awful situation.

 

 

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

Isolating is a way of protecting Dave.

Track and Trace doesn't just pick up C19...it picks up other forms of the Corona virus too...it doesn't just isolate C19.

So you are asking people to isolate for 14 days, then go back outside if tested positive. Even though they may never had had C19.

How long does that scenario go on for? It would be never ending as there are so many different types of Corona viruses.

The vulnerable with underlying health issues, like my mother and father will never be totally safe. It's here...like the flu...it's not going away. 

Unfortunately these vulnerable people have been put in an awful situation.

 

 

What does this even mean?

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4 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Mankind has yet to develop a vaccine to counter the spread of ANY form of Corona virus. Never been done; which questions why Covid19 should differ?

Because so much more money is being poured into these coronavirus vaccines than ever before. It's a race, a worldwide focus, similar to the moon landing in some respects. Many thought it wasn't scientifically possible until it was.

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4 hours ago, spudski said:

Track and Trace doesn't just pick up C19...it picks up other forms of the Corona virus too...it doesn't just isolate C19.

Sigh. WRONG. Any sources? There was a nonsense facebook post and YouTube video recently spreading this lie.

The "C19" PCR test only finds C19.

https://sciencefeedback.co/claimreview/pcr-tests-for-covid-19-are-specific-for-the-novel-coronavirus-sars-cov-2-and-do-not-detect-other-coronaviruses-contrary-to-claims-in-viral-article-and-video/

https://fullfact.org/online/PCR-test-coronavirus/

https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-pcr-test-accuracy/

https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/wuhan-virus-assay-v1991527e5122341d99287a1b17c111902.pdf

 

It's like when you said this:

On 29/09/2020 at 11:35, spudski said:

Also...as an example...if you get tested positive say back in January, and get knocked down and killed by a bus tomorrow, your death certificate will show it as covid. That's been admitted too.

You. Are. Lying. I don't know how to make it any clearer. It has no effect on the numbers which is what you are trying to imply. The ONS found in a study that only 14% of death certificates mentioning covid did not have it down as the underlying cause. Additonally the government dashboard show deaths 28 days after a positive test. Getting a positive test will not show on your death certificate 9 months later. https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/deaths

Quote

People who died more than 28 days after their first positive test are not included, whether or not COVID-19 was the cause of death. People who died within 28 days of a positive test are included: the actual cause of death may not be COVID-19 in all cases. People who died from COVID-19 but had not been tested or had not tested positive are not included.

It would take 2 minutes for you to find.

Compared to the expected deaths based off previous years we've had around 50,000 extra people die since April (ish). 92% of them had covid mentioned. What do you think happened there? Coincidence? That's a lot of bloody bad bus drivers!! https://fingertips.phe.org.uk/static-reports/mortality-surveillance/excess-mortality-in-england-latest.html

You are just spreading dangerous lies and misinformation. It's morally wrong.

It's not a case of "Let's agree to disagree." as you said earlier. I don't agree to disagree. You are lying and putting people at risk. Stop it. Do your research. Click those links and read - but I bet you wont.

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2 hours ago, Sturny said:

Because so much more money is being poured into these coronavirus vaccines than ever before. It's a race, a worldwide focus, similar to the moon landing in some respects. Many thought it wasn't scientifically possible until it was.

Sadly, money is no guarantee of success. In the early 80's I took part in a Stage One drug trial for what was thought to be a low risk though highly lucrative replacement for one of the world's most popular drugs that was shortly going out of licence.

Over the course of a week I took @ 1/1000th of a single therapeutic dose. No reaction - until I stopped taking it, after which I had a severe adverse reaction, as did, to a lesser extent,  the 3 others first to take it.

The drug and it's $90m+ development was canned overnight.

Corona has interesting properties that make it extremely difficult to combat with any long lasting impact, save, like all viruses, physical attachment of detergent or alcohol that breaks them apart or causes them to lose their ability to attach to cell walls.

Moon landing not a great analogy as we'll have David Icke reminding all that was filmed at Pinewood ?‍?

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23 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Sadly, money is no guarantee of success. In the early 80's I took part in a Stage One drug trial for what was thought to be a low risk though highly lucrative replacement for one of the world's most popular drugs that was shortly going out of licence.

Over the course of a week I took @ 1/1000th of a single therapeutic dose. No reaction - until I stopped taking it, after which I had a severe adverse reaction, as did, to a lesser extent,  the 3 others first to take it.

The drug and it's $90m+ development was canned overnight.

Corona has interesting properties that make it extremely difficult to combat with any long lasting impact, save, like all viruses, physical attachment of detergent or alcohol that breaks them apart or causes them to lose their ability to attach to cell walls.

Moon landing not a great analogy as we'll have David Icke reminding all that was filmed at Pinewood ?‍?

Of course not a guarantee, but it certainly accelerates results and research. I think it's silly to say for certain that we will or won't find a vaccine. 

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26 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Of course not a guarantee, but it certainly accelerates results and research. I think it's silly to say for certain that we will or won't find a vaccine. 

I didn't say mankind wouldn't and hope, beyond hope, it does. I responded to an assertion that Covid19 could/will be vaccinated against and simply pointed out that's never happened before with any virus of its type.

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13 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

I didn't say mankind wouldn't and hope, beyond hope, it does. I responded to an assertion that Covid19 could/will be vaccinated against and simply pointed out that's never happened before with any virus of its type.

I know! And you're right it's never been vaccinated before. I was replying to the question and for me that doesn't erode my hope that we can find one some day for the reasons I mentioned earlier :) 

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4 minutes ago, Sturny said:

I know! And you're right it's never has been vaccinated before. I was replying to the question and for me that doesn't erode my hope that we can find one some day for the reasons I mentioned earlier :) 

On a positive note evolution dictates the ever-changing genome of RNA viruses weaken over time, often quite short periods of time. Could be Covid19 runs rampant but eventually becomes background having a refuced payload and for those it does impact mankind will have developed therapeutics to manage.

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When did people get so entrenched in their views that backtracking and admitting they may have been wrong, misinformed or not fully informed become so difficult? I fully appreciate that many people may have gone back and forth on Lee, the board, players over the years, many refused to changed their opinion even when the results would contradict their opinion, that’s what forums are about I suppose, we all know that one particular poster had it in for a ‘conference manager’, he looked pretty silly as a result. It is still ok to change ones opinion or stick your hand up and admit you may have got something wrong isn’t it?

Anyway, we can all disagree on players, managers, tactics. However when it comes to matters of life and death surely there has to be some general consensus? Yes, there will be nutty conspiracy theorists, but most sane, decent people understand that this isn’t ‘just the flu’ or that ‘all lives matter’ and that there isn’t a group of powerful and famous paedophiles running a child sex trafficking ring from a pizza parlour and that Donald isn’t  the saviour right? 

Anyway, been biting my tongue on this thread, while enjoying good posters put some covidiots in their place. It’s a shame, I used to really enjoy reading one of the more vocal numpties in this thread, didn’t always agree, but enjoyed their contributions and content, now I’m just thinking what a spud. I hope it passes and I can enjoy his content in future, however I used to be a MIchael Jackson fan, but the moment I realised he was a wrong ‘un that stopped and I never listened to him again.

Anyway, never been on Insta, Twitter, FB so my perspective maybes different to most. This is the closest I get to social media. That’s enough iPad and cider, night all. Look after yourselves and importantly one another and if you’re opinions are dangerous keep quiet ✌️

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Since a lot of people want to play "statistician" today, it's worth bearing in mind that the first wave statistics we have are more than likely flawed due to the amount of testing, the debates around who died of Covid and who didn't, etc. That doesn't even take into account whether you trust whoever compiled the stats. IMO, Covid is extremely serious, but whatever side you want to take shouldn't rely on what some basic internet stats will tell you. As football fans, you should know better than to blindly trust stats.

Back to the podcast - long may it continue! For me, it's one of the highlights of this year.

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On 01/10/2020 at 10:12, MarcusX said:

Whether I agree or not doesn't matter, I think people are perfectly entitled to believe that the relatively small loss of life doesn't make up for the millions of lives impacted by the lockdown and the continuing restrictons.

It would be interesting to understand the thoughts of those who adopt such views as to what they think of the NHS and medicine in general?

From a purely economic perspective having a National Health Service when there's a surplus population is nugatory. Provided there are enough punters on the planet to fill any productive voids, keeping folks alive for longer and particularly when in poor health is a stupid idea. Most animals understand this, it's only those creatures with higher congnitive function that develop long-term social values that act otherwise.

So I wonder to what other conditions these folks suggest nature should be allowed to take its course rather than place a social burden on others? I'm also intrigued as to where they might consider the tipping point, when does an acceptable loss become unacceptable? As with the selfishness of the human condition the answer is invariably when it impacts them?

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1 hour ago, EnderMB said:

Back to the podcast - long may it continue! For me, it's one of the highlights of this year.

What praise, quite the compliment after all 2020 is turning out to be an outstanding year.... ?

 

Keep up the good work guys, pod is great and still seems to be improving ?

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1 hour ago, BTRFTG said:

It would be interesting to understand the thoughts of those who adopt such views as to what they think of the NHS and medicine in general?

From a purely economic perspective having a National Health Service when there's a surplus population is nugatory. Provided there are enough punters on the planet to fill any productive voids, keeping folks alive for longer and particularly when in poor health is a stupid idea. Most animals understand this, it's only those creatures with higher congnitive function that develop long-term social values that act otherwise.

So I wonder to what other conditions these folks suggest nature should be allowed to take its course rather than place a social burden on others? I'm also intrigued as to where they might consider the tipping point, when does an acceptable loss become unacceptable? As with the selfishness of the human condition the answer is invariably when it impacts them?

That's a very good point and one beyond anything I've considered to be honest but yes, last sentence seems to be the factor

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