One Team In Keynsham Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said: Disagree. Fer me, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating (of said pudding). Let's have it right on Otibs for once. Without actually filling our face with the pudding, the pudding is neither this or that. Only a pudding. Incidentally, you cannot make a pudding without breaking some eggs. Food for thought for Deano here.... Similarly you can't make an omelette without putting the horse before the cart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 9 minutes ago, phantom said: I disagree, a few months back Morrell was being mentioned as starting in midfield with Walsh this season. As for playing "a decent amount at this level" I wasn’t talking about Joe - I know as well as most how little Joe has played for us (the above doesnt include cup games for us )....I was talking generally about some posters who will say things like - Andreas Weimann is shit. That’s just a stupid comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Oil Services Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, One Team In Keynsham said: Similarly you can't make an omelette without putting the horse before the cart. Tell me about it. I'd like to see Nigella try. What's good for her goose is always worth a gander Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 just to complete my earlier post....look at England’s left sided attack without Joe on the pitch. He didn’t have a good game with the ball, but he was effective w/o it. ....and for info, just been told the plan was to withdraw him at half-time last night. Off to Ireland now. Callum v Joe??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltons Army Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 I’ll chuck my two pennyworth in about Joe Watched him (Him rather than the game) a few times for Lincoln and a fair few times now for Wales I looked at technique , intelligence of positioning in team possession / out of team possession , composure , vision My view is having done so is that he’s a decent player , strengths in his game intelligence / positioning , good technique and composure on the ball, rarely gifts the ball away and decent vision to spot an attacking runner, his organisation of and communication with teamates Hes not a ‘eye catching’ matchwinner , don’t look or expect that from him , that’s not his game / forte The quietist game I’ve seen from him last night , but he wasn’t given the ball when making angles to make himself available and .......He was against some very good direct opponents and ....... . sometimes a player is asked to do a specific role for the team and as a result his own personal show contribution may suffer Depends how you watch a player I guess And opinions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said: I’ll chuck my two pennyworth in about Joe Watched him (Him rather than the game) a few times for Lincoln and a fair few times now for Wales I looked at technique , intelligence of positioning in team possession / out of team possession , composure , vision My view is having done so is that he’s a decent player , strengths in his game intelligence / positioning , good technique and composure on the ball, rarely gifts the ball away and decent vision to spot an attacking runner, his organisation of and communication with teamates Hes not a ‘eye catching’ matchwinner , don’t look or expect that from him , that’s not his game / forte The quietist game I’ve seen from him last night , but he wasn’t given the ball when making angles to make himself available and .......He was against some very good direct opponents and ....... . sometimes a player is asked to do a specific role for the team and as a result his own personal show contribution may suffer Depends how you watch a player I guess And opinions ....Especially when you are playing against a superior opponent (not England’s strongest line-up, but still much stronger than Wales). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Davefevs said: Can’t do Ray Wilkins, but here’s a chart of City since the start of last season, showing forward passes versus sideways and backwards. The chart (I think I am reading it correctly) above seems to back up what many thought we were doing under LJ, i.e. much backwards and sideways possession without getting the ball forward often enough. Perhaps we do watch the same game................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 15 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Off to Ireland now. Callum v Joe??? Winner stays at City, loser out on loan? Would that be a fair way to help Holden trim the squad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 25 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said: Tell me about it. I'd like to see Nigella try. What's good for her goose is always worth a gander There are several things I'd like to see Nigella try...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILINFRANCE Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 49 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said: Disagree. Fer me, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating (of said pudding). Let's have it right on Otibs for once. Without actually filling our face with the pudding, the pudding is neither this or that. Only a pudding. Incidentally, you cannot make a pudding without breaking some eggs. Food for thought for Deano here.... Black Pudding? Sorry, are we still allowed to say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carey 6 Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 Shouldn't read too much into how Morrell performed against England. Let's not forget how bad Kalas looked against them last year. Like Walsh, I don't feel I've seen enough to have an opinion on either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 29 minutes ago, Port Said Red said: There are several things I'd like to see Nigella try...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin phantom Posted October 9, 2020 Admin Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 39 minutes ago, Numero Uno said: The chart (I think I am reading it correctly) above seems to back up what many thought we were doing under LJ, i.e. much backwards and sideways possession without getting the ball forward often enough. Perhaps we do watch the same game................... It looks like the sort of chart LJ would use too. No wonder he was thought to over anyalyse everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 19 minutes ago, phantom said: It looks like the sort of chart LJ would use too. No wonder he was thought to over anyalyse everything Surely you can see the value in it, football teams employ analysts and sports scientists to process various data sets. It's not some 'new fangled nonsense' that only Lee Johnson used. Believe it or not - Sam Allardyce was one of the pioneers of data analysis in UK football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Davefevs said: I don’t think many are praising him to the skies, they are just saying he’s a decent player, who has a chance. To rubbish any City player who has played a decent amount at this level is a bit silly. Even the players who I don’t think have done great or have dropped off, I still think are talented...just not as good as others. We have several players with limited Champ experience - Morrell, Walsh, Bakinson are three. They all have ability. Making it at this level in the tough Championship midfield is hard. Not trying to dismiss Bakinson’s early displays because they’ve been good....but his challenge will come when opponents suss him out and start targeting him. But, boy has he taken his early chance. Given Holden a lot to think about, which is all he can do. And Joe and Liam have got a lot of work to do! There is one particular Otiber I have in mind whose entire mantra is "play the youth". By youth, he means people who are/have been on loan or in the U23s. Some of whom are older than some First Team regulars. I think it's great we have some promising players in the pipeline, but this one particular forum member (I'm sure you know who I mean) seems to think we've fostered some sort of golden generation, without the hard and fast evidence I might add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltons Army Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 16 minutes ago, phantom said: It looks like the sort of chart LJ would use too. No wonder he was thought to over anyalyse everything Analytics has its place , but in its rightful place IMHO Trust your eyes if you are watching carefully , opponents as a side, individual players , particularly your own , team shape, in and out of possession, and team dynamics / flow can all be accurately assessed by watching , closely , maybe back over several times Charts don’t show you the constant changing flow, interactions , of 22 moving players in any moment or passage of play, t Analytics with graphics as @Davefevsregularly does are excellent for showing players or the team particular opposition traits , orDebriefing own players using examples etc - but how has Dave identified those clips - with his eyes , and understanding of the game (Putting them into good graphics with explanations is another skill again , and hats off Dave) Then have a look at any specific number crunching analytics to see particularly if they strongly go with , or against your particular view Id also use analytics to look for anything that they suggested strongly that I had missed or overlooked and review them Thats their place for me IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 27 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said: Analytics has its place , but in its rightful place IMHO Trust your eyes if you are watching carefully , opponents as a side, individual players , particularly your own , team shape, in and out of possession, and team dynamics / flow can all be accurately assessed by watching , closely , maybe back over several times Charts don’t show you the constant changing flow, interactions , of 22 moving players in any moment or passage of play, t Analytics with graphics as @Davefevsregularly does are excellent for showing players or the team particular opposition traits , orDebriefing own players using examples etc - but how has Dave identified those clips - with his eyes , and understanding of the game (Putting them into good graphics with explanations is another skill again , and hats off Dave) Then have a look at any specific number crunching analytics to see particularly if they strongly go with , or against your particular view Id also use analytics to look for anything that they suggested strongly that I had missed or overlooked and review them Thats their place for me IMHO Thanks. I often say that what I want is the data / stats / pictures to confirm what I saw with my eyes. Not always the case though (we all see different things). But last night to me it was clear that Morrell was playing further forward, he wasn’t getting on the ball but that he was part of a set up to stop England progressing down the left side. The pictures posted this morning back up what I posted during the game last night. Last night was great for me, because I spent 90% just watching Joe, whereas when I watch City I’m trying to watch all 11 plus the opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curr Avon Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 6 hours ago, phil_clevedon said: Interesting, the "secret scout" says Joe "could not command the ball" in the second half. Maybe that's because he was subbed at half-time Well named considering his bloody eyesight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeAman08 Posted October 9, 2020 Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 16 hours ago, Davefevs said: No, we had Chris Brunt. The conspiracy theories are way off the mark. One CM for 3 positions. 2 strikers on the bench a specialist cm a specialist lb a gk and a hybrid player in O’Dowda. Not saying conspiracies are true but bit odd imo. 15 hours ago, mozo said: Plus, O'Dowda is cover for both centre mid and (preferably) wide positions, albeit I'd prefer him not to be! Which brings up the question is O’Dowda rated more than Morrell at Morrell’s position? I don’t think so but if DH does then suggests Morrell could go imo. Same with Walsh. I know he hasn’t been fit but where is the contract? You can argue that he should play for one but that just means if he does well he can get offers from elsewhere. I just get a feeling they are the two most likely candidates to leave in the next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin phantom Posted October 9, 2020 Admin Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 2 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said: Surely you can see the value in it, football teams employ analysts and sports scientists to process various data sets. It's not some 'new fangled nonsense' that only Lee Johnson used. Believe it or not - Sam Allardyce was one of the pioneers of data analysis in UK football. It has its use, but it was clear that LJ was getting more and more obsessed with stats and graphs etc and would go a long way to explain why we took our eye off what really needed correcting last season 2 hours ago, Sheltons Army said: Analytics has its place , but in its rightful place IMHOAnalytics with graphics as @Davefevsregularly does are excellent for showing players or the team particular opposition traits , orDebriefing own players using examples etc - but how has Dave identified those clips - with his eyes , and understanding of the game (Putting them into good graphics with explanations is another skill again , and hats off Dave) This kind of thing has its place, but just look at how in depth Davefevs post went earlier in the week. Players don't need to be hearing and seeing pages of pictures about the game, it's no wonder our side looked constantly lost last season. The players wouldn't have a clue whether they were coming and going. With so little time on the ball a player needs to play off instinct, not have to think of a picture that showed which way to pass the ball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin phantom Posted October 9, 2020 Admin Report Share Posted October 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Davefevs said: Last night was great for me, because I spent 90% just watching Joe That was some achievement considering the game bypassed him so much and was hardly on screen But do agree it is easier to watch in a ground Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon bristol Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 Im still waiting to see what a holden managed odowda will look like. Without the shackles of stopping and passing back from the previous manager, and given license to actually play the game, he could look really strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeAman08 Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 3 hours ago, JonDolman said: Not getting into any debate about O'Dowda's ability. But it would seem from last game that Holden prefers O'Dowda to other available box to box options, as otherwise he would not have made the bench. Whether Morrell was available or not, who knows. It might be that Holden doesn't see Walsh and Morrell fitting in with how we play. Will be disappointing if they do go, but i'd trust Holden to get that right. No doubt. That is kind of what I am getting at. I don’t mind who DH rates. Maybe he gets a tune from COD. Willing to see it. From the start of the season it doesn’t seem Morrell is seen as a serious option. Perhaps Brunt and Bakinson have shifted thinking massively. Brunt too good an option to pass up and Bakinson leaping almost everyone in the pecking order. Find ourselves at a crossroads with Morrell and perhaps Walsh it feels like. Add Massengo and Nagy as well. Problem with that is those are the players we have under contract next season. Most of the mainstays in cm are out of contract after this season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 5 hours ago, JonDolman said: I imagine Holden uses fairly simple ways of explaining his tactics. And those tactics seem to be similar every game too. LJ said after covid break that the tactics are complicated. Well yeah they certainly looked complicated to me. The players looked confused. Any tactic that is so intricate it takes x training sessions to embed is either too complicated or too difficult to embed. Suspect it’s a combination of both. And that tactic, if stifled by and opponent, gives you alternative. I don’t think players looked confused, more that they looked constrained. You could imagine Holden at H-T v Wednesday saying simple things like “T - just drag Brown or Bannan (whoever is on you) away from the centre of the pitch to give Tayls room to advance”. Job done. It ain’t rocket science, even at the level I played, we talked about moving players away from area you want to exploit. So players at pro level can do it easily. Dean appears to be able to understand cause and effect - can therefore make subtle tweaks without changing personnel or system. He is mainly using subs in the Rugby “finishers” context. No doubt, LJ would’ve gone double sub and 442 against Wednesday at H-T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 It'll be a fascinating week now. Holden has stated that he'll trim the midfield and he's got a week now to do it 5pm on the 16th I believe). All will be revealed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, mozo said: It'll be a fascinating week now. Holden has stated that he'll trim the midfield and he's got a week now to do it 5pm on the 16th I believe). All will be revealed... I suspect in some respects he will pass this over to Ashton to sort out, whilst he concentrates on prep for Barnsley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted October 11, 2020 Report Share Posted October 11, 2020 On 09/10/2020 at 15:35, phantom said: It has its use, but it was clear that LJ was getting more and more obsessed with stats and graphs etc and would go a long way to explain why we took our eye off what really needed correcting last season This kind of thing has its place, but just look at how in depth Davefevs post went earlier in the week. Players don't need to be hearing and seeing pages of pictures about the game, it's no wonder our side looked constantly lost last season. The players wouldn't have a clue whether they were coming and going. With so little time on the ball a player needs to play off instinct, not have to think of a picture that showed which way to pass the ball We don’t know this for sure in LJ’s defence. It seems the type of thing LJ would be guilty of but there’s no proof really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 11, 2020 Report Share Posted October 11, 2020 On 09/10/2020 at 15:35, phantom said: It has its use, but it was clear that LJ was getting more and more obsessed with stats and graphs etc and would go a long way to explain why we took our eye off what really needed correcting last season This kind of thing has its place, but just look at how in depth Davefevs post went earlier in the week. Players don't need to be hearing and seeing pages of pictures about the game, it's no wonder our side looked constantly lost last season. The players wouldn't have a clue whether they were coming and going. With so little time on the ball a player needs to play off instinct, not have to think of a picture that showed which way to pass the ball They won’t.....they’ll watch brief videos either in group tactical sessions or on clips sent to their iPads (each player is given a club iPad to watch stuff on). If for example Tommy Rowe hadn’t seen Alex Mighten play (he certainly wouldn’t have ever played against him), a couple of quick video clips will get him a bit of familiarity. The only reason my posts seem in-depth is because they’re written. They aren’t in-depth at all. What I’ve written and shown in pictures is pretty basic stuff. None if that would be confusing to a pro...in fact it wouldn’t surprise me if they did read it that their response would be “duh, tell me something I don’t already know”. @Lrrr give us an example of what level of detail would go into a player’s video clip on their iPad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted October 11, 2020 Report Share Posted October 11, 2020 On 10/10/2020 at 06:09, JonDolman said: I imagine Holden uses fairly simple ways of explaining his tactics. And those tactics seem to be similar every game too. LJ said after covid break that the tactics are complicated. Well yeah they certainly looked complicated to me. The players looked confused. Covid must have hit the squad about 18 months before the rest of the country because that's when tactics, formations and selections started to get more confused and muddled! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted October 11, 2020 Report Share Posted October 11, 2020 11 minutes ago, Davefevs said: They won’t.....they’ll watch brief videos either in group tactical sessions or on clips sent to their iPads (each player is given a club iPad to watch stuff on). If for example Tommy Rowe hadn’t seen Alex Mighten play (he certainly wouldn’t have ever played against him), a couple of quick video clips will get him a bit of familiarity. The only reason my posts seem in-depth is because they’re written. They aren’t in-depth at all. What I’ve written and shown in pictures is pretty basic stuff. None if that would be confusing to a pro...in fact it wouldn’t surprise me if they did read it that their response would be “duh, tell me something I don’t already know”. @Lrrr give us an example of what level of detail would go into a player’s video clip on their iPad? Have they given you a club ipad for tactical input Dave? If not why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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