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Joe Morrell - Perm to Luton Confirmed (Merged)


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18 minutes ago, Prinny said:

My word, that was a hard watch. Republic of Ireland games are awful to watch. Dunno why Wales set up to not lose, they should be the better team IMO. The four times I've watched him for Wales he's done the same thing. His job. He's very disciplined, and organised, and an organiser. While I can't pick out voices he was waving his arms a lot and pointing, so assuming he was doing that out there!

So what do we have? A 23 year old disciplined, tactical, organiser who's good on the ball and a continuity player. Which as we've discussed before makes the Brunt signing odd. But hey, Morrell was injured and this is competition, and more experience seemed to have been needed. He should take over Brunts role completely next year as he's here until 2022 (+1) if he's good enough.

I actually don't think Morrell fits the system we're currently playing. I don't want him in Bakinsons role because it would look like Massengo because people directly running at him would be bad and he's not the most positive passer ever. I don't think he's an "8" because he doesn't look like he has the running in him required to get up to the strikers. If you change the dynamic of the midfield I think he'll look comfortable at "championship" level. But lower champ level is very different to facing the current premier league (paid) players at the very top IMO.

Morrell's really an interesting clue as to what Holden will do going forwards.

 

Good view / summary. Caveat - I haven’t watched today’s game yet.

As you say, he’s playing a specific role for Wales, all about discipline, stay in position, stop balls being fizzed into the opposition forward(s), keep the ball moving.  He’s trusted to do that over several other players.  Without Bristol City bias, he’s continually selected over Will Vaulks of Cardiff City, who was excellent at our place post-Covid....so Giggs sees something special in him.  He’s not being picked as a “name” or based on the club he plays for is he?

What we need to do is take onboard the positives of why he’s selected for Wales....but wait until we see performances in a City shirt and what role he’s asked to perform for us.

He’s got ability, but once he gets a chance for City it’s about doing the biz.

 

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25 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Good view / summary. Caveat - I haven’t watched today’s game yet. Don't do it to yourself!

As you say, he’s playing a specific role for Wales, all about discipline, stay in position, stop balls being fizzed into the opposition forward(s), keep the ball moving.  He’s trusted to do that over several other players.  Without Bristol City bias, he’s continually selected over Will Vaulks of Cardiff City, who was excellent at our place post-Covid....so Giggs sees something special in him.  He’s not being picked as a “name” or based on the club he plays for is he? He's very much a Lee Johnson style "player I can trust to do exactly what I tell him" for Giggs IMO. Honestly for us, that will make a him a target of abuse! I see the future Marlon Pack! Who I absolutely hated watching and abused.

What we need to do is take onboard the positives of why he’s selected for Wales....but wait until we see performances in a City shirt and what role he’s asked to perform for us. I think that's key isn't it. You ask your players to do stuff then CAN do. My comments about him are based on what I have seen not what he CAN do, because I've only seen him do two things. That deep lying continuity role, and the slightly advanced tactical role where he wasn't even showing for the ball unless it was "SAFE" to do so. Both those roles are kinda negative, and that's not criticising him or Giggs (who seems pretty clued in tactically defensively IMO) for doing it but I didn't really see sparks of much more. The few passing forward opportunities he did do were not hugely impressive. I remember a counter attack from a previous game where he intercepts a ball in front of the half way line and breaks only to absolutely take too long and THEN waste a pass. It's one moment but it's a real chance to get a goal scoring move going.

He’s got ability, but once he gets a chance for City it’s about doing the biz. With the level of competition we have in there it's all about who performs. And Holden has shown IMO with the inclusion of Bakinson and Paterson and Weimann that that's the only thing he cares about. Not names, not fees, not international caps not even regular positions. Who does it the best. So time to come back and perform every chance you get. I don't care who comes out on top. I know some are desperate for academy players, but I just want a manager to pick the best team regardless.

From Holden I want to know will he change the system to accommodate players who are playing "better"? Play the best players or play the best players for system. I wonder what his priorities are in terms of what he thinks will get us results. We haven't had to change things except to defend leads. time will tell but interesting things to look at going forwards for me.

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11 minutes ago, Prinny said:

From Holden I want to know will he change the system to accommodate players who are playing "better"? Play the best players or play the best players for system. I wonder what his priorities are in terms of what he thinks will get us results. We haven't had to change things except to defend leads. time will tell but interesting things to look at going forwards for me.

All I would add to Morrell in particular is that I think he has more to his game than what Giggs asks him to do for Wales, but that’s my view only.  Up to him to prove it.

Re Holden, I think there is an unknown (currently) whether the current 352 system with a holder, a runner and a technician (or similar terms) is fixed.  Personally I’m not a fan of the way some OTIBers are using these role descriptions or calling it a six and two eights, because I think it’s just a symptom of who he’s picked and what they are asked to do.  I suspect it’s not fixed and his basic system of 352 can be flexed dependent on personnel as well as specific tactics.  But we will have to wait and see.  If Bakinson gets injured or losing form I wouldn’t expect Holden to pick someone and say “I want you to play like Tyreeq”, I’d expect him to weigh up how the new players fits with who else he’s gonna pick, etc.

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6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

All I would add to Morrell in particular is that I think he has more to his game than what Giggs asks him to do for Wales, but that’s my view only.  Up to him to prove it.

Re Holden, I think there is an unknown (currently) whether the current 352 system with a holder, a runner and a technician (or similar terms) is fixed.  Personally I’m not a fan of the way some OTIBers are using these role descriptions or calling it a six and two eights, because I think it’s just a symptom of who he’s picked and what they are asked to do.  I suspect it’s not fixed and his basic system of 352 can be flexed dependent on personnel as well as specific tactics.  But we will have to wait and see.  If Bakinson gets injured or losing form I wouldn’t expect Holden to pick someone and say “I want you to play like Tyreeq”, I’d expect him to weigh up how the new players fits with who else he’s gonna pick, etc.

As an aside, I’m a bit confused about these numbers being used. When I was younger and we used the 1-11 system, I got used to the two centre backs being 5 & 6. Number 4 was a midfielder, number 9 was a forward, assuming 442, the other striker was probably 10 and the other midfielders 7, 8 and 11. 

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1 minute ago, Leveller said:

As an aside, I’m a bit confused about these numbers being used. When I was younger and we used the 1-11 system, I got used to the two centre backs being 5 & 6. Number 4 was a midfielder, number 9 was a forward, assuming 442, the other striker was probably 10 and the other midfielders 7, 8 and 11. 

Same here.  It’s fashionable to talk in this way. I’d rather be unfashionable and discuss what a player brings to their “simple position”, e.g. midfielder, forward etc.

in a recent German squad announcement they listed Goalkeeper, Defenders and Forwards!  

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8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

All I would add to Morrell in particular is that I think he has more to his game than what Giggs asks him to do for Wales, but that’s my view only.  Up to him to prove it.

Re Holden, I think there is an unknown (currently) whether the current 352 system with a holder, a runner and a technician (or similar terms) is fixed.  Personally I’m not a fan of the way some OTIBers are using these role descriptions or calling it a six and two eights, because I think it’s just a symptom of who he’s picked and what they are asked to do.  I suspect it’s not fixed and his basic system of 352 can be flexed dependent on personnel as well as specific tactics.  But we will have to wait and see.  If Bakinson gets injured or losing form I wouldn’t expect Holden to pick someone and say “I want you to play like Tyreeq”, I’d expect him to weigh up how the new players fits with who else he’s gonna pick, etc.

Both Gilmartin and another (can't remember if it was the academy guy or Tinnion) have used those terms on commentary so I think it's pretty canon now. I think there are three roles in there personally but the current iteration of the "8s" both do two of them depending on the situation, but you could have one player more dedicated for each separate role. I hope it's not fixed, because I'm not a fan of completely ignoring what the opposition do, or just doing the same thing over and over! Hey I prefer this jargon over "busy bees" and "box entries".

The counter to the point you make about Bakinson getting injured is the way he set Massengo up in the first game. He made him play that role, despite IMO his lack of suitability for it. Small sample size, lack of available players etc and he did make corrections with Weimann dropping in. But think you'd hope he'd not ask Massengo to do something he can't. Or maybe Massengo can but just failed. Is that a hint of square pegs round holes for the sake of the system? Too early to tell because of the mitigating factors. And hopefully the Weimann tactical shift shows he learned from it.

So bringing it back to Morrell. He's done well at what he can do in the Wales games. Let's hope he's only asked to do that. If he's directly brought in for Bakinson I think it will very much look like Massengo playing there (maybe slightly better 23Y/O vs 19 Y/O) based off of what I've seen. 

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11 minutes ago, Prinny said:

Both Gilmartin and another (can't remember if it was the academy guy or Tinnion) have used those terms on commentary so I think it's pretty canon now. I think there are three roles in there personally but the current iteration of the "8s" both do two of them depending on the situation, but you could have one player more dedicated for each separate role. I hope it's not fixed, because I'm not a fan of completely ignoring what the opposition do, or just doing the same thing over and over! Hey I prefer this jargon over "busy bees" and "box entries".

no, naive to think you can ignore the opposition.  But that’s very different to people thinking “we are gonna impose our football on them” takes no regard for your opponent either!

The counter to the point you make about Bakinson getting injured is the way he set Massengo up in the first game. He made him play that role, despite IMO his lack of suitability for it. Small sample size, lack of available players etc and he did make corrections with Weimann dropping in. But think you'd hope he'd not ask Massengo to do something he can't. Or maybe Massengo can but just failed. Is that a hint of square pegs round holes for the sake of the system? Too early to tell because of the mitigating factors. And hopefully the Weimann tactical shift shows he learned from it.

we will possibly disagree here!!

There were a number of “team issues” that needing resolving v Coventry, and I think this made people think it was a straight Bakinson coming on sorted out Massengo’s alleged shortcomings.

Paterson went missing for 35 minutes in the first half (after he scored).  He realised and started coming deeper to pick up the ball and keep it moving.  It had been a feature of his play during the Holden caretaker spell.  Imho the goal went to his head and he forgot to do the basics.

Taylor Moore at LCB against Coventry’s 2 AMs (Allen predominantly) couldn’t build any attacks down our left side.

Famara Diedhiou two fold - 1) rusty from pre-season and couldn’t hold the ball up. 2) his inability to press allowed Coventry’s CBs to feed their WBs easily or get the ball into Hamer or Shipley, dragging Weimann and Paterson forward, leaving a huge gap for O’Hare and Allen to overload Massengo.

Cause and effect....but a combination of factors that pointed towards the criticism of Massengo.

I honestly don’t think it matters who you played in there during the first half where Coventry exposed us.

Thankfully Holden saw the issues and made changes immediately during the ht break.

He dragged back Weimann into a more left centre midfield position and he pushed the side CBs wider in possession.  This dragged O’Hare and Allen out of their comfortable central zones, whilst ensuring Massengo had an extra body if things broke down.  We started the second half slightly better.

Then the double sub.  It’s a bit blinkered to say it was all about Bakinson for Massengo (don’t get me wrong he did well), but for me Martin for Diedhiou had as big an effect if not more...because we suddenly had a base to build attacks and pressure.

So bringing it back to Morrell. He's done well at what he can do in the Wales games. Let's hope he's only asked to do that. If he's directly brought in for Bakinson I think it will very much look like Massengo playing there (maybe slightly better 23Y/O vs 19 Y/O) based off of what I've seen.

I think with all these selections we need to consider who else is picked in the team / midfield and the expectations of them too.

If I had a £1 for every time the Match Day thread pre-kick off says “our midfield will get over run today” I probably could stop looking for a job.  There will be parts of games where it happens, that’s the fluidity of football, but it happened regularly under LJ, and rarely under Holden.

👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

 

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26 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

we will possibly disagree here!!

There were a number of “team issues” that needing resolving v Coventry, and I think this made people think it was a straight Bakinson coming on sorted out Massengo’s alleged shortcomings.

Paterson went missing for 35 minutes in the first half (after he scored).  He realised and started coming deeper to pick up the ball and keep it moving.  It had been a feature of his play during the Holden caretaker spell.  Imho the goal went to his head and he forgot to do the basics.

Taylor Moore at LCB against Coventry’s 2 AMs (Allen predominantly) couldn’t build any attacks down our left side.

Famara Diedhiou two fold - 1) rusty from pre-season and couldn’t hold the ball up. 2) his inability to press allowed Coventry’s CBs to feed their WBs easily or get the ball into Hamer or Shipley, dragging Weimann and Paterson forward, leaving a huge gap for O’Hare and Allen to overload Massengo.

Cause and effect....but a combination of factors that pointed towards the criticism of Massengo.

I honestly don’t think it matters who you played in there during the first half where Coventry exposed us.

Thankfully Holden saw the issues and made changes immediately during the ht break.

He dragged back Weimann into a more left centre midfield position and he pushed the side CBs wider in possession.  This dragged O’Hare and Allen out of their comfortable central zones, whilst ensuring Massengo had an extra body if things broke down.  We started the second half slightly better.

Then the double sub.  It’s a bit blinkered to say it was all about Bakinson for Massengo (don’t get me wrong he did well), but for me Martin for Diedhiou had as big an effect if not more...because we suddenly had a base to build attacks and pressure.

I don't think we disagree too much except on a couple of points. You can add all those fair mitigating factors into why Massengo didn't play so well.

But I still think it DID matter who we played there. I'm sure you're making the point loosely just because we were playing ineffectively. As they have different skills and abilities. I don't see a player with lower mobility and a more negative passing style (Massengo/Morell) suiting the "6" if they're on their own, whatever the game state. Unless there's literally no pressure on them ever. In the Wales games where they're actually trying to score there's very little pressure on Joe and he's got multiple options ahead of him. And he's quick to get things going which is a good point of his. But I don't see that happening in the championship as the games are so much faster usually.

In the Villa game, Bakinson came on and improved it (albeit at 2/3-0) and Massengo came on and looked better in the slightly forward role similar to where Morrell played vs England. There was a highlight video of Massengo playing for Monaco when we signed him. It showed him playing around the midfield, winning or receiving the ball in advanced areas and then turning on players then playing forwards and/or getting fouled a lot and earning free kicks with excellent body control. LJ tried to make him Korey Smith, old Korey Smith who could run.

The other thing I disagree on is the valuation of Bakinson. His ability to cover larger areas is a big upgrade on Massengo who can't IMO. And his tendency to pass forwards rather than side or back is rare in that position. I liken it to a winger and a full back. Bakinson plays facing their goal. Massengo plays facing ours. I think that's huge. Yes he looks better when the team is better. Everyone will. But he's one of the DIRECT reasons WHY it's better. Like Martin, like Mawson. We have a spine of the team that is playing REALLY well IMO. Bentley, Mawson, Bakinson, Weimann, Martin. And that goes all the way from GK to attack. On current form those are my current "undroppables".

It's very important teams are able to "Self Scout" and identify what players can do what. I think we seem ok at it right now. Mawson immediately brought in as Moore could not play LCB. Moore as the central centre back. Diedhiou dropped for Martin. Semenyo as the first change for Wells. But it's all pretty obvious stuff IMO. It's certainly better than under LJ.

My self scouting as a supporter is Morrell is good but limited in what he can do. I think some people are really really high on him. Where I think so far he'll be ok but in limited roles. Morrell's from what I've seen are the two things he's done for Wales. Which we currently aren't using in the starting formation 1A

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7 minutes ago, Prinny said:

I don't think we disagree too much except on a couple of points.

probably not in reality 👍🏻Just coming at it in different ways.

You can add all those fair mitigating factors into why Massengo didn't play so well.

But I still think it DID matter who we played there. I'm sure you're making the point loosely just because we were playing ineffectively. As they have different skills and abilities. I don't see a player with lower mobility and a more negative passing style (Massengo/Morell) suiting the "6" if they're on their own, whatever the game state. Unless there's literally no pressure on them ever. In the Wales games where they're actually trying to score there's very little pressure on Joe and he's got multiple options ahead of him. And he's quick to get things going which is a good point of his. But I don't see that happening in the championship as the games are so much faster usually.

In the Villa game, Bakinson came on and improved it (albeit at 2/3-0) and Massengo came on and looked better in the slightly forward role similar to where Morrell played vs England. There was a highlight video of Massengo playing for Monaco when we signed him. It showed him playing around the midfield, winning or receiving the ball in advanced areas and then turning on players then playing forwards and/or getting fouled a lot and earning free kicks with excellent body control. LJ tried to make him Korey Smith, old Korey Smith who could run.

yes, that’s why I’ve never believed Massengo was a DM.  Interestingly Korey was never a DM either until Pack was sold....he was just a better “sniffer” than Nagy or Massengo.

The other thing I disagree on is the valuation of Bakinson. His ability to cover larger areas is a big upgrade on Massengo who can't IMO. And his tendency to pass forwards rather than side or back is rare in that position. I liken it to a winger and a full back. Bakinson plays facing their goal. Massengo plays facing ours. I think that's huge. Yes he looks better when the team is better. Everyone will. But he's one of the DIRECT reasons WHY it's better. Like Martin, like Mawson. We have a spine of the team that is playing REALLY well IMO. Bentley, Mawson, Bakinson, Weimann, Martin. And that goes all the way from GK to attack. On current form those are my current "undroppables".

yes, agree Bakinson passes forward more, it’s a good trait.  His challenge will be to continue the kind of ratio of fwd passes (circa 40%) this season.  That is very good....even for a “deep midfielder”.  I think your point re “way they are facing is very valid, it’s why I argue profusely that most CBs can play DM until they need to get the ball and play forward.  I know from experience that as a CB when I played DM, I could get it facing my CBs, and I could go back to them or to my Full-backs....but I couldn’t open up and advance the ball.  For those suggesting Vyner as a DM, he would be as constrained as I was (at my level).

It's very important teams are able to "Self Scout" and identify what players can do what. I think we seem ok at it right now. Mawson immediately brought in as Moore could not play LCB. Moore as the central centre back. Diedhiou dropped for Martin. Semenyo as the first change for Wells. But it's all pretty obvious stuff IMO. It's certainly better than under LJ.

obvious maybe, but amazing how reputations come into team selection....Holden just seems to pick who he thinks is best.  

My self scouting as a supporter is Morrell is good but limited in what he can do. I think some people are really really high on him. Where I think so far he'll be ok but in limited roles. Morrell's from what I've seen are the two things he's done for Wales. Which we currently aren't using in the starting formation 1A

that is totally fair.  As I’ve said before there’s a huge difference in “not being good enough for this level” and “not being better than the players picked in the team / system”.

Some people suggesting that if he isn’t on the bench on Saturday must mean there’s something up, or he’s on his way out, or he’s not good enough, etc etc.  We have a group of players - all imho are good enough to play Championship football....the manager can only pick 11 starters and 7 subs.

 

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6 minutes ago, Tangle Foot said:

Just wondered. Does anyone think that Giggs would pick Bakinson over Morrell, if Bakinson qualified to play for Wales?

COYR.

Depends whether he thinks he can do the job he asks Morrell to do.  It’s a pretty clear Giggs sees him as quite key to the way he wants Wales to play.

We need to see more of Bakinson, can he organise, can he be disciplined, etc.

Im wondering more whether he should play instead of Declan Rice 😂😂😂

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16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

that is totally fair.  As I’ve said before there’s a huge difference in “not being good enough for this level” and “not being better than the players picked in the team / system”.

Some people suggesting that if he isn’t on the bench on Saturday must mean there’s something up, or he’s on his way out, or he’s not good enough, etc etc.  We have a group of players - all imho are good enough to play Championship football....the manager can only pick 11 starters and 7 subs.

I think most sensible people would argue for a squad of at least 22 in modern football. So if there's 18 in a squad. To declare something must be up with at least 4 players every week is silly IMO. If we went down and retained this squad every player would easily be "good enough" and we'd still have to leave people out. Some people like and enjoy conspiracy theories, I just think it's useless if there's literally no evidence other than a players absence.

We have 27 first team players listed. So aliens, chem trails, lizard people, strong girders, and flags fluttering in zeroG can only account for so many.

The promised "breath of fresh air" has been Holden's own views, and how they match up with reality so far. 

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43 minutes ago, Tangle Foot said:

Just wondered. Does anyone think that Giggs would pick Bakinson over Morrell, if Bakinson qualified to play for Wales?

COYR.

And when does Bakinson get his England call up?! 

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7 hours ago, Lrrr said:

Well we know he’s fit then.... wait and see for Saturday 

Yep, with O’Dowda pretty unlikely to be involved now, Williams having played no football since July & Walsh still not fit, if he cannot even make the bench after proving his fitness by playing back to back internationals in 4 days it does make you wonder about his future in BS3.

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2 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Yep, with O’Dowda pretty unlikely to be involved now, Williams having played no football since July & Walsh still not fit, if he cannot even make the bench after proving his fitness by playing back to back internationals in 4 days it does make you wonder about his future in BS3.

Probably a choice between Morrell and Palmer....although if Kalas comes into 18 too that surely means one of the defenders misses out.  Bench last game had Sessegnon and Dasilva.

Long way to go til Friday’s deadline though!

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39 minutes ago, Alan Dicks' Barmy Army said:

This thread is very interesting in that of all of our fringe players Joe gets such exposure on here

It does remind me just like the furore that used to surround Wes Burns.

Both their careers very similar up to now. . . . .

Wes was voted player of the season for his club and starting games for a side 21st in the fifa rankings? 

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On 11/10/2020 at 19:04, Leveller said:

As an aside, I’m a bit confused about these numbers being used. When I was younger and we used the 1-11 system, I got used to the two centre backs being 5 & 6. Number 4 was a midfielder, number 9 was a forward, assuming 442, the other striker was probably 10 and the other midfielders 7, 8 and 11. 

When some of us were younger we were used to 5 being the centre half, 2 & 3 right& left backs, 4&5 right and left halves, 8 & 10 inside right & left, 7 & 11 right & left wing and 9 centre forward. 

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Probably a choice between Morrell and Palmer....although if Kalas comes into 18 too that surely means one of the defenders misses out.  Bench last game had Sessegnon and Dasilva.

Long way to go til Friday’s deadline though!

True.

I’d expect Sessegnon to drop out of the 18 if Kalas is fit, Vyner (though it is harsh to drop him anyway) is far more versatile as a sub.

Palmer is the more logical replacement for O’Dowda on the bench, I just think he isn’t rated.

May be wrong but I’m not expecting anyone to leave this week.

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8 hours ago, downendcity said:

When some of us were younger we were used to 5 being the centre half, 2 & 3 right& left backs, 4&5 right and left halves, 8 & 10 inside right & left, 7 & 11 right & left wing and 9 centre forward. 

Yep - except of course the half backs were 4 & 6 under the 235 lineup. I'm not sure when anybody last actually lined up as 235 - if they did. Wasn't the no 5 centre half always at the back between the full backs?

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  • elhombrecito changed the title to Joe Morrell - Perm to Luton Confirmed (Merged)

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