The cure for insomnia

[Northern Red]

1 hour ago, 2015 said:

Ignore the fact that our performances lately have been very negative. We set up to not lose, which shouldn't be the case with the attacking players we have. Been the case since we lost to Czech Republic. If you can't see that then i don't know what you're watching

Since we lost to the Czech Republic:

Played 7, Won 6, Drawn 1, Goals For 23, Goals Against 1.

That sequence includes wins of 7-0, 6-0, 4-0 and 3-0

If you don't think Southgate is the right man then that's a fair enough view, but don't just make stuff up in order to have a go.

[2015]

2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I found the Greenwood/Foden situation frustrating.

Both are huge talents, for me Foden is our best breakthrough talent since Rooney in 2003/2004. By all means they needed to be punished and made an example of (to an extent). But freezing them out of the team is disproportionate and counter productive.

I appreciate it's a sensitive issue, but it doesn't really benefit anyone when you deny them of match experience. 

I'm also baffled by his treatment of Grealish. I find it quite bizarre really. 

100%. His treatment towards them has been very poor man management in my eyes. Two of our brightest young talents and he alienates them like that. Have a pop at them, tell them off then move on, don't drag it out. He did the same with Gomez/Sterling last year. It doesn't look good, but because the media like Southgate, he gets it off lightly.
Really bizarre how he treats Grealish, we really lack a player who can run with the ball and create something from nothing and he is that man. I don't really rate Mount myself.

He just reminds me a lot of Lee Johnson. Very eloquent, a bit of a yes man, questionable man management skills and sets up to not lose games.

3 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

Since we lost to the Czech Republic:

Played 7, Won 6, Drawn 1, Goals For 23, Goals Against 1.

That sequence includes wins of 7-0, 6-0, 4-0 and 3-0

If you don't think Southgate is the right man then that's a fair enough view, but don't just make stuff up in order to have a go.

Against who of note though? Bulgaria and Montenegro? That's about par for the standard of opposition. I guess you watched us against Denmark and Iceland and ignored those matches too. 
We were playing fast attacking football, we have stopped doing this based on recent performances, the results are irrelevant when you watch back the past 4 games you'll see a team playing very conservatively and not playing a system which suits the players. My view on it.

[Phileas Fogg]

1 minute ago, 2015 said:

100%. His treatment towards them has been very poor man management in my eyes. Two of our brightest young talents and he alienates them like that. Have a pop at them, tell them off then move on, don't drag it out. He did the same with Gomez/Sterling last year. It doesn't look good, but because the media like Southgate, he gets it off lightly.
Really bizarre how he treats Grealish, we really lack a player who can run with the ball and create something from nothing and he is that man. I don't really rate Mount myself.

He just reminds me a lot of Lee Johnson. Very eloquent, a bit of a yes man, questionable man management skills and sets up to not lose games.

I generally quite liked LJ but I too can see some parallels. I think Southgate is probably a very nice guy, he's intelligent, eloquent and has some interesting ideas. I just don't think he's a winner.

It's possible I'm subconsciously making the same sort of parallels people did with LJ by remembering him as a player. I know Southgate was a good player in his own right, but I remember him mainly (for England) for the penalty miss!

[Red-Robbo]

4 hours ago, MarcusX said:

 

 

When was the last time you were in the box attacking (or defending) a corner, or attempting to win a header anywhere on the pitch? The slightest touch or push can be enough to put you off, especially once you're off the ground. It may have appeared soft but he pulled him enough to restrict him. I'm actually surprised it was given as usually they aren't.

 I don't actually think he pulled him. Just put a hand on him to balance himself. When you look at the slow-mo, Henderson feels a touch then dives forward, with the obligatory shout of "arghhhhhh".  Not a penalty, although you see them given all the time.

As an ex-defender I'd hate to play now with the sort of 'no touching, this is netball for blokes' interpretation of the rules modern refs have to impose. 

[MarcusX]

5 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 I don't actually think he pulled him. Just put a hand on him to balance himself. When you look at the slow-mo, Henderson feels a touch then dives forward, with the obligatory shout of "arghhhhhh".  Not a penalty, although you see them given all the time.

As an ex-defender I'd hate to play now with the sort of 'no touching, this is netball for blokes' interpretation of the rules modern refs have to impose. 

As a current defender, I see where you are coming from

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 I don't actually think he pulled him. Just put a hand on him to balance himself. When you look at the slow-mo, Henderson feels a touch then dives forward, with the obligatory shout of "arghhhhhh".  Not a penalty, although you see them given all the time.

As an ex-defender I'd hate to play now with the sort of 'no touching, this is netball for blokes' interpretation of the rules modern refs have to impose. 

Meunier got wrong side.  Imho the hand wasn’t to balance himself but to lessen Henderson’s run.  Poor defending, and a softish penalty, but that’s what you get these days.  Defenders need to learn rather than play victim.

[Red-Robbo]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Meunier got wrong side.  Imho the hand wasn’t to balance himself but to lessen Henderson’s run.  Poor defending, and a softish penalty, but that’s what you get these days.  Defenders need to learn rather than play victim.

 

I'm setting the Defenders' Union lawyers on you, Fevs.

They're like the Goalies' Union, but not as mad.  

[Davefevs]

Just now, Red-Robbo said:

 

I'm setting the Defenders' Union lawyers on you, Fevs.

Their like the Goalies' Union, but not as mad.  

I am a member of the DU....although also part of a central splinter group - the CBU....we don’t allow full-backs or wingbacks.

[Red-Robbo]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I am a member of the DU....although also part of a central splinter group - the CBU....we don’t allow full-backs or wingbacks.

 

People talk about great centre backs being 'hard but fair'.

I was 'hard but unfair'.  A sort of Chopper Harris, but without the panache. 

[Davefevs]

59 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

People talk about great centre backs being 'hard but fair'.

I was 'hard but unfair'.  A sort of Chopper Harris, but without the panache. 

I wasn’t a great CB, so wouldn’t know

[redysteadygo]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I wasn’t a great CB, so wouldn’t know

I was versatile. From schooldays in the 50s I was a wing half, then when the 70s arrived and "sweepers" became the vogue I was ideally suited as I could "read a game", was only 5ft 7ins tall and had deceptive pace i.e. I looked a lot quicker than I actually was. Eventually moved to full back where my reading of the game had to be at it's best as the flying wingers somehow became faster and as I played into my 50s I have to admit I was no angel.

 

 

[grifty]

4 hours ago, 2015 said:

Ignore the fact that our performances lately have been very negative. We set up to not lose, which shouldn't be the case with the attacking players we have. Been the case since we lost to Czech Republic. If you can't see that then i don't know what you're watching

I agree we shouldn't set up not to lose against the majority of teams, but Belgium isn't one of them. If we attacked them from the get go, they have the players to cut us apart in Carrasco, De Bruyne, etc.

I agreed with you regarding the set up v Iceland, we didn't need 3 centre backs against a team who only ever got 1 player in our half at any time. I'm not sure why you've ignored that and gone defensive about it?

[grifty]

3 hours ago, 2015 said:

Interesting point really. I think he certainly favours his tried and tested players. I still scratch my head as to why Grealish hasn't played more games for England yet Eric Dier has loads of caps.

You really can't see why Grealish hasn't played more games and yet Dier has? Really?

Eric Dier has 178 Prem appearances scoring 10 goals and is a naturally more defensive player either CDM or CB

Grealish has 73 Prem appearances scoring 12 goals. Nearly half of these appearances were just last season including 8 of these goals.

You said in an earlier post "We will get found out soon by all this tinkering from Southgate and giving caps to players who have only played like 20 prem games",

So appearances in the prem should have a direct affect on who is picked, which is why Dier has more appearances for England.

Up until August 2014, Grealish was in the Irish U-21 squad and in September 2015 made his England U-21 debut. April 2015 was when he was caught inhaling nitrous oxide. In November 2015 he was out clubbing after losing 4-0 to Everton. In March 2020 he broke COVID lockdown and I believe that's when he crashed his car and ran from the scene.

The only thing I can think Dier did was run up into the stand to confront someone who he thought was slagging him off in front of his brother/family.

So even though they don't play in the same position, there are a number of reasons why Dier has more caps than Grealish.

Grealish's first season where he performed well in the Prem has lead to him getting 2 caps so far.

Southgate has given debuts to 24 players, Out of the 15 players involved v Belgium, Southgate has given 10 of them their debuts...

[JamesBCFC]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

What stats?  Balls in the onion bag?  Read plenty of my posts....I talk about that stat being the only really important one.

I think you misinterpreted my post....I’m saying we aren’t generally a good “team”, but a bunch of individuals.  And for fans to think that a bunch of individuals can rock up and expect to win against a “team” like Belgium is disrespectful.  I don’t think Southgate thinks that, but he is still struggling to build a team.

Im not sure where stats needs to come into it?

One of the challenges of a national team manager.

Do you stick with a group until they are able to play as a cohesive unit (something you can never guarantee) or reward players in the best form, potentially changing half the squad every time.

 

Wasn't there something about in the past all the Liverpool, Arsenal, Man Utd players would stay in their own cliques, which meant there was never any chemistry on the pitch.

[2015]

1 minute ago, grifty said:

You really can't see why Grealish hasn't played more games and yet Dier has? Really?

Eric Dier has 178 Prem appearances scoring 10 goals and is a naturally more defensive player either CDM or CB

Grealish has 73 Prem appearances scoring 12 goals. Nearly half of these appearances were just last season including 8 of these goals.

You said in an earlier post "We will get found out soon by all this tinkering from Southgate and giving caps to players who have only played like 20 prem games",

So appearances in the prem should have a direct affect on who is picked, which is why Dier has more appearances for England.

Up until August 2014, Grealish was in the Irish U-21 squad and in September 2015 made his England U-21 debut. April 2015 was when he was caught inhaling nitrous oxide. In November 2015 he was out clubbing after losing 4-0 to Everton. In March 2020 he broke COVID lockdown and I believe that's when he crashed his car and ran from the scene.

The only thing I can think Dier did was run up into the stand to confront someone who he thought was slagging him off in front of his brother/family.

So even though they don't play in the same position, there are a number of reasons why Dier has more caps than Grealish.

Grealish's first season where he performed well in the Prem has lead to him getting 2 caps so far.

Southgate has given debuts to 24 players, Out of the 15 players involved v Belgium, Southgate has given 10 of them their debuts...

I was using Dier as an example of a very average player who has more caps for England than he should

[Carey 6]

4 hours ago, JonDolman said:

What would your back 3 be?

Is he reverting back to a back 3 now then? I thought his plan was to bin that off once the World Cup was over. 

Wan Bissaka is going to play for Congo I believe. Don't think he's too happy about being our 5th choice RB behind TAA, Trippier, Walker & James.

I wouldn't experiment much more before the Euros, I think Gomez/Walker, Coady and Maguire would be mine. 

I don't rate Dier in any position he plays, but there must be a reason managers love to have him in their side. 

3 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I found the Greenwood/Foden situation frustrating.

I'm also baffled by his treatment of Grealish. I find it quite bizarre really. 

I think he had to leave them out of this squad, they're young & if let off they'd not take him seriously. They'll be back in the next one, I don't think they'll be frozen out!

Heard the same from my mates this weekend, but if he had a problem with Grealish, he wouldn't call him up or play him in the Wales game would he? I bet he's just fed up of being asked about him when it's a squad game. It's like whenever a manager get asked if 'player' is leaving over and over again, they get pissed off with the subject. 

Unrelated to either of your posts:

Pickford has done a good job for England, for years we had players picked who were great in the Premier League, but never transferred it across to the national side, anyone who performs well for England should keep their spot imo. I had many arguments with people about Wilshere/Welbeck over this as well. 

Also for other forum posters, it's SAKA not Sakho. Cheers 

[grifty]

3 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I found the Greenwood/Foden situation frustrating.

Both are huge talents, for me Foden is our best breakthrough talent since Rooney in 2003/2004. By all means they needed to be punished and made an example of (to an extent). But freezing them out of the team is disproportionate and counter productive.

I appreciate it's a sensitive issue, but it doesn't really benefit anyone when you deny them of match experience. 

I'm also baffled by his treatment of Grealish. I find it quite bizarre really. 

Can I ask how he has frozen them out? They were not picked in the Wales squad because of the COVID rules after they tried to have an orgy in the team hotel. They were never going to be picked for a game v Belgium, possibly Foden could have been a used sub. Or do you believe they are above all these because they are huge talents? 

Abraham, Chilwell and AN Other I've forgotten decided to have a party during lockdown so were also not picked for this game.

Maguire did whatever he did in Greece and was dropped for one game.

I'd actually argue Southgate has handled these 'professional' players being idiots very well without damaging their progress with regards to their England careers. (apart from maybe Maguire where he said he believes Maguire side of the story and then the next day he was found guilty. I found that quite funny actually).

[Phileas Fogg]

29 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

 

I think he had to leave them out of this squad, they're young & if let off they'd not take him seriously. They'll be back in the next one, I don't think they'll be frozen out!

Heard the same from my mates this weekend, but if he had a problem with Grealish, he wouldn't call him up or play him in the Wales game would he? I bet he's just fed up of being asked about him when it's a squad game. It's like whenever a manager get asked if 'player' is leaving over and over again, they get pissed off with the subject. 

 

25 minutes ago, grifty said:

Can I ask how he has frozen them out? They were not picked in the Wales squad because of the COVID rules after they tried to have an orgy in the team hotel. They were never going to be picked for a game v Belgium, possibly Foden could have been a used sub. Or do you believe they are above all these because they are huge talents? 

Abraham, Chilwell and AN Other I've forgotten decided to have a party during lockdown so were also not picked for this game.

Maguire did whatever he did in Greece and was dropped for one game.

I'd actually argue Southgate has handled these 'professional' players being idiots very well without damaging their progress with regards to their England careers. (apart from maybe Maguire where he said he believes Maguire side of the story and then the next day he was found guilty. I found that quite funny actually).

Frozen out wrong phrase in hindsight. I just think that the two of them, especially Foden, need the gametime at international level. By all means, give them a dressing down in private - but depriving them of playing time doesn't really help anyone. I'd argue that Abraham, Chilwell and Maguire don't have the same potential as Greenwood and particularly Foden. Whether it's worth it in hindsight to stop them playing i'm not so sure. Difficult one to manage. I suppose he needs to set a precedent and stick to it and it's a sensitive issue.

RE: Grealish - it seems to have come about post-Wales where he was asked a question about Grealish and then made the answer about Mason Mount (who he seems to rate highly). The argument is that Grealish is in excellent form and is ready to be in the first team. I agree.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, JamesBCFC said:

One of the challenges of a national team manager.

Do you stick with a group until they are able to play as a cohesive unit (something you can never guarantee) or reward players in the best form, potentially changing half the squad every time.

 

Wasn't there something about in the past all the Liverpool, Arsenal, Man Utd players would stay in their own cliques, which meant there was never any chemistry on the pitch.

All I would say is that there is a tendency to want to pick who the media think are in form.

[Galway Red]

Couldn't be bothered to watch it once I saw the team and Grealish wasn't playing , was it any more entertaining than the usual negative dross or are people just happy because England won? (genuine question) 

[2015]

52 minutes ago, Galway Red said:

Couldn't be bothered to watch it once I saw the team and Grealish wasn't playing , was it any more entertaining than the usual negative dross or are people just happy because England won? (genuine question) 

It was boring. Very boring

[cityexile]

Round 2!

Back 5 and 2 DMFs again. Let’s hope for a good result.

[Rob k]

Thought the sending off was harsh personally 

And how on earth is that a penalty?

[2015]

Same rubbish. Maguire sent off for 2 stupid fouls. Southgate continues to be conservative.

[Guest]

What on earth was that a pen for

[Globe Trotter]

Well this is going well 

[TheCulturalBomb]

The players we have on the bench, and we persist with this awful nonsense.

Imagine any other international team with Trent, Sancho and Grealish on the bench.. but you can't because they would be starting for the country.

 

Wouldn't have Southgate manage an under 11's team.

[AberRed]

Beating number 1 ranked Belgium then losing to Denmark would be the most England thing ever.

[Rob k]

3 minutes ago, TomF said:

What on earth was that a pen for

I’ve watched it 10 times and still can’t see anything - i don’t know what the refs seen 

[2015]

1 minute ago, TheCulturalBomb said:

The players we have on the bench, and we persist with this awful nonsense.

Imagine any other international team with Trent, Sancho and Grealish on the bench.. but you can't because they would be starting for the country.

 

Wouldn't have Southgate manage an under 11's team.

Wouldn't have him manage a piss up in a brewery if i'm honest. The guy is the international version of Lee Johnson.

2 minutes ago, AberRed said:

Beating number 1 ranked Belgium then losing to Denmark would be the most England thing ever.

We got lucky against Belgium to be honest.