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Cocu’s out at Derby?


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3 hours ago, frenchred said:

Overrated player wow! He's englands record goalscorer ffs. 

I'd humbly suggest that, if Bobby Charlton had been able to play games against the likes of San Marino, Lichtenstein, Lithuania etc, he would still be England's record goalscorer and not Rooney. There's a context to everything - literally! - and in this case the context you might want to consider is "Who were the goals scored against?" and "What type of game were they scored in?". For starters, there were no endless European Championship qualifiers against cannon fodder opposition in Charlton's day. Furthermore, when it mattered most, Bobby Charlton turned it on for England - example? How about the winning goals in a World Cup quarter final? How about the Germans being so petrified of his abilities they specifically man marked him in 2 World Cups. Not that it did them much good. In contrast, when it mattered most, Rooney was either shite (World Cup 2010) or a liability (red card Euros 2006). For that reason alone - failing too many times to turn up for England when it mattered most - I'd say he was overrated too. Not rubbish but overrated - if you were picking an all time England XI he wouldn't get anywhere near it, imho.           

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29 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I'd humbly suggest that, if Bobby Charlton had been able to play games against the likes of San Marino, Lichtenstein, Lithuania etc, he would still be England's record goalscorer and not Rooney. There's a context to everything - literally! - and in this case the context you might want to consider is "Who were the goals scored against?" and "What type of game were they scored in?". For starters, there were no endless European Championship qualifiers against cannon fodder opposition in Charlton's day. Furthermore, when it mattered most, Bobby Charlton turned it on for England - example? How about the winning goals in a World Cup quarter final? How about the Germans being so petrified of his abilities they specifically man marked him in 2 World Cups. Not that it did them much good. In contrast, when it mattered most, Rooney was either shite (World Cup 2010) or a liability (red card Euros 2006). For that reason alone - failing too many times to turn up for England when it mattered most - I'd say he was overrated too. Not rubbish but overrated - if you were picking an all time England XI he wouldn't get anywhere near it, imho.           

Bobby Charlton. What a player (from tv clips only)!!!

A player I really wish I’d seen live. 

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56 minutes ago, Midred said:

Yes, I don't think he got as many A levels as Frank!

He's just so f@ckin dull. Whinges like a wrong un on the pitch as well. 'Cmo'n ref it must be a free kick, do you know who I am?'

In addition, when he plays for Derby and squares a 10 yard ball to another player under no pressure the commentators whip out their old felly and proceed to frape themselves furiously.

(Again, I'm not sure if this comes across well via text.)

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27 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I'd humbly suggest that, if Bobby Charlton had been able to play games against the likes of San Marino, Lichtenstein, Lithuania etc, he would still be England's record goalscorer and not Rooney. There's a context to everything - literally! - and in this case the context you might want to consider is "Who were the goals scored against?" and "What type of game were they scored in?". For starters, there were no endless European Championship qualifiers against cannon fodder opposition in Charlton's day. Furthermore, when it mattered most, Bobby Charlton turned it on for England - example? How about the winning goals in a World Cup quarter final? How about the Germans being so petrified of his abilities they specifically man marked him in 2 World Cups. Not that it did them much good. In contrast, when it mattered most, Rooney was either shite (World Cup 2010) or a liability (red card Euros 2006). For that reason alone - failing too many times to turn up for England when it mattered most - I'd say he was overrated too. Not rubbish but overrated - if you were picking an all time England XI he wouldn't get anywhere near it, imho.           

Of his 53 international goals, one was scored in a summer WC finals competition, and not in qualification. 

There were six in Euro finals, although four of these came early doors in that first tournament when he looked very promising. 

That leaves 46 of his England goals in qualification games - ie pub teams - and friendlies. He did manage to score twice v Brasil, in friendlies. And v Holland, in a friendly. And the Dutch, yes, in a friendly. And France, in a friendly. He was not to be under-rated in friendlies.

There were five of his 53 nabbed against San Marino, and these were not friendly. Far from it. He also managed one v Liechtenstein. Again, this was an unfriendly game. Three more came v Kazakhstan, in qualification games. 

 

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49 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I'd humbly suggest that, if Bobby Charlton had been able to play games against the likes of San Marino, Lichtenstein, Lithuania etc, he would still be England's record goalscorer and not Rooney. There's a context to everything - literally! - and in this case the context you might want to consider is "Who were the goals scored against?" and "What type of game were they scored in?". For starters, there were no endless European Championship qualifiers against cannon fodder opposition in Charlton's day. Furthermore, when it mattered most, Bobby Charlton turned it on for England - example? How about the winning goals in a World Cup quarter final? How about the Germans being so petrified of his abilities they specifically man marked him in 2 World Cups. Not that it did them much good. In contrast, when it mattered most, Rooney was either shite (World Cup 2010) or a liability (red card Euros 2006). For that reason alone - failing too many times to turn up for England when it mattered most - I'd say he was overrated too. Not rubbish but overrated - if you were picking an all time England XI he wouldn't get anywhere near it, imho.           

I'd humbly suggest that throughout the history of international football it has always had a splattering of shite teams. Those teams have progressed and been replaced by others! Do you think charlton scored all his goals against the top nations (as they were then)

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2 hours ago, Banned User said:

Only 162 goals in under 500 appearances. The 8th most goals ever scored in the Premier League.

For context - Premier League stats;

Rooney - 491 appearances 208 goals 111 assists

Defoe -   496 appearances 163 goals 27 assists

Both quite impressive.

 

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1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I'd humbly suggest that, if Bobby Charlton had been able to play games against the likes of San Marino, Lichtenstein, Lithuania etc, he would still be England's record goalscorer and not Rooney. There's a context to everything - literally! - and in this case the context you might want to consider is "Who were the goals scored against?" and "What type of game were they scored in?". For starters, there were no endless European Championship qualifiers against cannon fodder opposition in Charlton's day. Furthermore, when it mattered most, Bobby Charlton turned it on for England - example? How about the winning goals in a World Cup quarter final? How about the Germans being so petrified of his abilities they specifically man marked him in 2 World Cups. Not that it did them much good. In contrast, when it mattered most, Rooney was either shite (World Cup 2010) or a liability (red card Euros 2006). For that reason alone - failing too many times to turn up for England when it mattered most - I'd say he was overrated too. Not rubbish but overrated - if you were picking an all time England XI he wouldn't get anywhere near it, imho.           

I feel like sometimes when you call someone "overrated", other misinterpret that as "shit".

No one is saying he is shit, he was a very good striker, but also one of the most overrated players of the last 30 years.

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46 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

For context - Premier League stats;

Rooney - 491 appearances 208 goals 111 assists

Defoe -   496 appearances 163 goals 27 assists

Both quite impressive.

 

Rooney in his prime was a superb player, but when you are a striker it certainly helps your stats that you played in the dominant team of the era and one that was a an almost irresistible attacking force.

Would Defoe have done appreciably less well than Rooney had he  played in the same Man U team?

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3 hours ago, Midred said:

With as many friendlies as are now played the term "top striker" is all relative.

Beckham got to his 100 caps by coming on for the last 10 minutes of his  last few games.

Hmmm, and just a little bit closer to home, a certain Louis Carey is the player with the most appearances for City.

When the one club man and England international, the late John Atyeo, was playing for City, substitutes were not even allowed.... 

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8 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Rooney in his prime was a superb player, but when you are a striker it certainly helps your stats that you played in the dominant team of the era and one that was a an almost irresistible attacking force.

Would Defoe have done appreciably less well than Rooney had he  played in the same Man U team?

Problem is, Rooney's prime lasted about 18 months, when he was about 22 and had Ronaldo alongside him.

So then you have a (very good) 23-24 year old (at the end of his prime) who still has a decade of his playing career ahead of him, who will always have the hype around him because he starts for Manchester and was seen as undroppable for England.

Quote

For context - Premier League stats;

Rooney - 491 appearances 208 goals 111 assists

Defoe -   496 appearances 163 goals 27 assists

Both quite impressive.

when looking at those stats provided by @bcfc01, and then considering the sides both players were at, either one of them (Defoe) is vastly underrated, one (Rooney) is vastly overrated, or a bit of both. 

Edited by JamesBCFC
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59 minutes ago, frenchred said:

I'd humbly suggest that throughout the history of international football it has always had a splattering of shite teams. Those teams have progressed and been replaced by others! Do you think charlton scored all his goals against the top nations (as they were then)

I agree there have always been shite teams. But nowhere near as many in Charlton's day as there are now.

Furthermore, Charlton never had the chance to play against opposition that was cannon fodder, i.e. teams made up - literally - of amateurs. Whereas Rooney helped himself to 5 goals against the butchers, bakers and candlestick-makers of San Marino alone.  

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8 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

and the Grannies,

don't forget the Grannies

They could have been bakers or candlestick makers.  They were certainly professional, as Im sure I read that some were solicitors - or something like that.  :shocking:

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Rooney had an almost 1 in 2 goal ratio for Man U in the league - and that will be from not even playing upfront every game (almost 400 PL games). You don't get anywhere near that if you aren't a brilliant player. He also had over 100 assists. That's goal involvement in almost 75% of games. Pretty incredible.

Whereas he didn't quite go on and be an all-time great for England (I think probably because of injuries, much like happened to Owen), he was still a top player.

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1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I agree there have always been shite teams. But nowhere near as many in Charlton's day as there are now.

Furthermore, Charlton never had the chance to play against opposition that was cannon fodder, i.e. teams made up - literally - of amateurs. Whereas Rooney helped himself to 5 goals against the butchers, bakers and candlestick-makers of San Marino alone.  

Also Charlton played in an era where robust defending was still allowed unlike now and Rooney did score a few penalties for England too, i also think Linekar would’ve scored more than Rooney had he played in the modern era 

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7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I know I’ve told this story before but when City played Crawley in 14/15 (late Luke Ayling winner), John Gregory walked past the wheelchair section and came over to chat to Joe.  Was with him for ages, chatting about Xmas presents, favourite players etc.  He was with him so long his assistant had to run out of the changing rooms and remind him he’d not sent the team sheet in.

I always assumed he was a bit of a big-head, but he was absolutely brilliant with Joe

That's good to hear.   

When Stan Collymore disclosed his mental health problems many years ago, John Gregory was far from sympathetic. I thought was shocking.  Thankfully times have changed and I'd like to think he wouldn't react the same now. 

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Interesting debate on Rooney here. 

Re his stats for Man United, I’d love to rewind time and swap him with Ade Akinbiyi or Shaun Goater. I guarantee that they’d have got a hatful too (granted not as many). He benefited from the best service any striker in his time got.

WR was a very good striker. But he wasn’t a great like Shearer or Henry. 

And on that point, I’d argue that the latter Is the all time great PL striker. 

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6 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I'd humbly suggest that, if Bobby Charlton had been able to play games against the likes of San Marino, Lichtenstein, Lithuania etc, he would still be England's record goalscorer and not Rooney. There's a context to everything - literally! - and in this case the context you might want to consider is "Who were the goals scored against?" and "What type of game were they scored in?". For starters, there were no endless European Championship qualifiers against cannon fodder opposition in Charlton's day. Furthermore, when it mattered most, Bobby Charlton turned it on for England - example? How about the winning goals in a World Cup quarter final? How about the Germans being so petrified of his abilities they specifically man marked him in 2 World Cups. Not that it did them much good. In contrast, when it mattered most, Rooney was either shite (World Cup 2010) or a liability (red card Euros 2006). For that reason alone - failing too many times to turn up for England when it mattered most - I'd say he was overrated too. Not rubbish but overrated - if you were picking an all time England XI he wouldn't get anywhere near it, imho.           

Of Charltons 49 goals 

6 were against Northern Ireland

5 v Luxembourg

5 v Wales

4 v Scotland

4 v USA

4 v Mexico

28 goals v real giants of world football there!!!

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4 hours ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Hmmm, and just a little bit closer to home, a certain Louis Carey is the player with the most appearances for City.

When the one club man and England international, the late John Atyeo, was playing for City, substitutes were not even allowed.... 

I was thinking that just after I posted!

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2 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

Interesting debate on Rooney here. 

Re his stats for Man United, I’d love to rewind time and swap him with Ade Akinbiyi or Shaun Goater. I guarantee that they’d have got a hatful too (granted not as many). He benefited from the best service any striker in his time got.

WR was a very good striker. But he wasn’t a great like Shearer or Henry. 

And on that point, I’d argue that the latter Is the all time great PL striker. 

I wouldn't argue with that, but would add that Bergkamp was probably the best imo albeit with not the same goal return.

Started something now...

 

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I've said this publicly on Twitter - that when Cocu gets the heave-ho from Derby (which is only a matter of time) then its a great set up for Lee Johnson.
I know the obvious thing seems to be Rooney taking over. But despite poor decisions in his personal life, when it comes to football - he aint as daft as you might think. And I think he will perhaps appreciate that he isn't quite ready yet to be the number one at a club.

I can well imagine that LJ takes over as head coach. Rooney steps back from playing and becomes number two. If things go wrong, the blame doesnt land at Rooney's door and he gets a shot at being head coach after learning more in the meantime while LJ takes the fall. If it goes well, Rooney gets a gig in his own right eventually.... OR it turns out that Johnson and Rooney are a management dream team! 

 

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9 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I'd humbly suggest that, if Bobby Charlton had been able to play games against the likes of San Marino, Lichtenstein, Lithuania etc, he would still be England's record goalscorer and not Rooney. There's a context to everything - literally! - and in this case the context you might want to consider is "Who were the goals scored against?" and "What type of game were they scored in?". For starters, there were no endless European Championship qualifiers against cannon fodder opposition in Charlton's day. Furthermore, when it mattered most, Bobby Charlton turned it on for England - example? How about the winning goals in a World Cup quarter final? How about the Germans being so petrified of his abilities they specifically man marked him in 2 World Cups. Not that it did them much good. In contrast, when it mattered most, Rooney was either shite (World Cup 2010) or a liability (red card Euros 2006). For that reason alone - failing too many times to turn up for England when it mattered most - I'd say he was overrated too. Not rubbish but overrated - if you were picking an all time England XI he wouldn't get anywhere near it, imho.           

I agree. It's a sad reality now that football now is a different sport but the records still get counted as they are:

1 19 April 1958 Hampden Park, Glasgow, Scotland 1 23px-Flag_of_Scotland.svg.png Scotland 3–0 4–0 1957–58 Home Championship [6]
2 7 May 1958 Wembley Stadium, London, England 2 23px-Flag_of_Portugal.svg.png Portugal 1–0 2–1 Friendly [11]
3 2–1
4 4 October 1958 Windsor Park, Belfast, Northern Ireland 4 23px-Ulster_Banner.svg.png Northern Ireland 1–1 3–3 1958–59 Home Championship [12]
5 3–3
6 22 October 1958 Wembley Stadium, London, England 5 23px-Flag_of_the_Soviet_Union.svg.png Soviet Union 4–0 5–0 Friendly [13]
7 11 April 1959 Wembley Stadium, London, England 6 23px-Flag_of_Scotland.svg.png Scotland 1–0 1–0 1958–59 Home Championship [14]
8 6 May 1959 Wembley Stadium, London, England 7 23px-Flag_of_Italy.svg.png Italy 1–0 2–2 Friendly [15]
9 28 May 1959 Wrigley Field, Los Angeles, United States 11 23px-Flag_of_the_United_States_%281912-1 United States 3–1 8–1 Friendly [16]
10 6–1
11 7–1
12 28 October 1959 Wembley Stadium, London, England 13 23px-Flag_of_Sweden.svg.png Sweden 2–3 2–3 Friendly [17]
13 9 April 1960 Hampden Park, Glasgow, Scotland 14 23px-Flag_of_Scotland.svg.png Scotland 1–1 1–1 1959–60 Home Championship [18]
14 8 October 1960 Windsor Park, Belfast, Northern Ireland 18 23px-Ulster_Banner.svg.png Northern Ireland 3–1 5–2 1960–61 Home Championship [19]
15 19 October 1960 Stade Municipal, Luxembourg City, Luxembourg 19 23px-Flag_of_Luxembourg.svg.png Luxembourg 1–0 9–0 1962 FIFA World Cup qualification [20]
16 2–0
17 7–0
18 23 November 1960 Wembley Stadium, London, England 21 23px-Flag_of_Wales_%281959%E2%80%93prese Wales 2–0 5–1 1960–61 Home Championship [21]
19 10 May 1961 Wembley Stadium, London, England 23 23px-Flag_of_Mexico_%281934-1968%29.svg. Mexico 2–0 8–0 Friendly [22]
20 6–0
21 7–0
22 28 September 1961 Highbury, London, England 27 23px-Flag_of_Luxembourg.svg.png Luxembourg 3–0 4–1 1962 FIFA World Cup qualification [23]
23 4–1
24 22 November 1961 Wembley Stadium, London, England 30 23px-Ulster_Banner.svg.png Northern Ireland 1–0 1–1 1961–62 Home Championship [24]
25 2 June 1962 Estadio Braden Copper, Rancagua, Chile 36 23px-Flag_of_Argentina.svg.png Argentina 2–1 2–1 1962 FIFA World Cup [25]
26 29 May 1963 Tehelné pole, Bratislava, Czechoslovakia 42 23px-Flag_of_the_Czech_Republic.svg.png Czechoslovakia 3–1 4–2 Friendly [26]
27 2 June 1963 Zentralstadion, Leipzig, East Germany 43 23px-Flag_of_East_Germany.svg.png East Germany 2–1 2–1 Friendly [27]
28 5 June 1963 St. Jakob Park, Basel, Switzerland 44 16px-Flag_of_Switzerland.svg.png  Switzerland 1–0 8–1 Friendly [28]
29 5–1
30 8–1
31 12 October 1963 Ninian Park, Cardiff, Wales 45 23px-Flag_of_Wales_%281959%E2%80%93prese Wales 4–0 4–0 1963–64 Home Championship [8]
32 17 May 1964 Estádio Nacional, Lisbon, Portugal 50 23px-Flag_of_Portugal.svg.png Portugal 2–1 4–3 Friendly [29]
33 27 May 1964 Downing Stadium, New York City, United States 52 23px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png United States 8–0 10–0 Friendly [30]
34 10 April 1965 Wembley Stadium, London, England 57 23px-Flag_of_Scotland.svg.png Scotland 1–0 2–2 1964–65 Home Championship [31]
35 20 October 1965 Wembley Stadium, London, England 59 23px-Flag_of_Austria.svg.png Austria 1–0 2–3 Friendly [32]
36 2 April 1966 Hampden Park, Glasgow, Scotland 63 23px-Flag_of_Scotland.svg.png Scotland 4–2 4–3 1965–66 Home Championship [33]
37 4 May 1966 Wembley Stadium, London, England 64 23px-Flag_of_Yugoslavia_%281946-1992%29. Yugoslavia 2–0 2–0 Friendly [34]
38 16 July 1966 Wembley Stadium, London, England 69 23px-Flag_of_Mexico_%281934-1968%29.svg. Mexico 1–0 2–0 1966 FIFA World Cup [35]
39 26 July 1966 Wembley Stadium, London, England 72 23px-Flag_of_Portugal.svg.png Portugal 1–0 2–1 1966 FIFA World Cup [36]
40 2–0
41 16 November 1966 Wembley Stadium, London, England 76 23px-Flag_of_Wales_%281959%E2%80%93prese Wales 3–1 5–1 1966–67 Home Championship,
UEFA Euro 1968 qualification
[37]
42 21 October 1967 Ninian Park, Cardiff, Wales 78 23px-Flag_of_Wales_%281959%E2%80%93prese Wales 2–0 3–0 1967–68 Home Championship,
UEFA Euro 1968 qualification
[38]
43 22 November 1967 Wembley Stadium, London, England 79 23px-Ulster_Banner.svg.png Northern Ireland 2–0 2–0 1967–68 Home Championship,
UEFA Euro 1968 qualification
[39]
44 3 April 1968 Wembley Stadium, London, England 82 23px-Flag_of_Spain_%281945%E2%80%931977% Spain 1–0 1–0 UEFA Euro 1968 qualification [40]
45 22 May 1968 Wembley Stadium, London, England 84 23px-Flag_of_Sweden.svg.png Sweden 2–0 3–1 Friendly [10]
46 8 June 1968 Stadio Olimpico, Rome, Italy 86 23px-Flag_of_the_Soviet_Union.svg.png Soviet Union 1–0 2–0 UEFA Euro 1968 [41]
47 7 May 1969 Wembley Stadium, London, England 91 23px-Flag_of_Wales_%281959%E2%80%93prese Wales 1–1 2–1 1968–69 Home Championship [42]
48 21 April 1970 Wembley Stadium, London, England 100 23px-Ulster_Banner.svg.png Northern Ireland 3–1 3–1 1969–70 Home Championship [43]
49 20 May 1970 Estadio El Campín, Bogotá, Colombia 101 23px-Flag_of_Colombia.svg.png Colombia 3–0 4–0 Friendly
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