Kasey Palmer to Swansea Confirmed - Season Long Loan

[Jeez]

12 minutes ago, BOSRed said:

So no sale included in loan. If that’s the case, it baffles me why we would strengthen a division rival?

only thing I can think is if he gets a good run of games and hits real form his value will be much higher next summer window when hopefully things are back to some sort of normality.

or he comes back to us fit and in form.

This might be the catalyst for the Wilson loan. 

Frees up the wages and makes room to bring in a different type of attacking mid.

Given the choice between the 2 players I know which one I pick.

[Taz]

7 minutes ago, BOSRed said:

So no sale included in loan. If that’s the case, it baffles me why we would strengthen a division rival?

only thing I can think is if he gets a good run of games and hits real form his value will be much higher next summer window when hopefully things are back to some sort of normality.

or he comes back to us fit and in form.

A bit like Paterson after his loan. For me, up until then,  he had been frustrating - one game brilliant, and the next 2 or 3 anonymous.

In fairness to him, he came back from his loan, refreshed, reinvigorated and has looked a great player. It was the right decision for him at that time.

I still think he is one of those players that needs direct competition for his place, otherwise he gets too comfortable, and may as well not be on the pitch.

As good as Palmer is on his best day, I think he is a bit like Jet, in the respect of needing continuity in one position, and a regular run of games. When Jet was here, we were a level lower, and to some extent could afford to accommodate a player who didn't need to be on it for 90 minutes. At this level you wouldn't be able to play Jet every week and not have him on it for 90 mins, you need every player 100% focused at all times. 

Kasey is a bit of a luxury player, and in the right team/formation, would tear teams apart at this level. Unfortunately I don't think it will happen for him here, and I think the bigger picture when we signed him permanently was to sell him on at a big profit, after he had shown what he can do. If we break even, it would be a good deal. 

Kasey Palmer was a vanity signing. Whether that was a Johnson or Ashton vanity signing, I guess only a few people will ultimately know. It definitely looks like an Ashton "investment" though, as he wasn't a permanent fixture when he was on loan, and Johnson went on record as saying he "wanted a pre-season with KP to get the best out of him".

The fact that he signed so late in the day, I think points towards KP being an Ashton signing.

[TBW]

15 hours ago, steviestevieneville said:

Don’t see the problem with him going to another championship club. Swansea have korey & possibly Palmer in their line up. Two players not good  enough to get into our squad , never mind the starting 11

Paterson wasn't good enough to get into our line-up either. 

 

[YorksRed]

29 minutes ago, BOSRed said:

So no sale included in loan. If that’s the case, it baffles me why we would strengthen a division rival?

only thing I can think is if he gets a good run of games and hits real form his value will be much higher next summer window when hopefully things are back to some sort of normality.

or he comes back to us fit and in form.

Any option to buy would be based on current prices and would be an option not an obligation.  Hopefully he shines and comes back or we sell at a better price than what would be built into a loan agreement now.  

[mozo]

1 hour ago, Carey 6 said:

Currently undergoing a medical there. 

I think this could be a mistake, especially if Paterson reverts back to his usual level of inconsistency. 

Lets hope it doesn't bite us on the arse. 

 

I think Williams and Walsh are our natural 8s waiting for Weimann or Paterson to slip up. They're both supposed to be creative types.

What we lose with Palmer (and Elliasson) is that natural flair, a possible game-changer, but neither of those two would want to sit around waiting for the odd moment to shine.

[Davefevs]

Imho Pato needs a carrot.  He has 2 carrots dangling at the mo’....1) his place in the team if his form drops off 2) contract ends this summer.  From his recent interview he seems to have grown up, realised what he has here at Bristol City.

He is the best technical player we have, playing in a system that suits him.  Has flat spots in game, but generally he’s been a key player in Holden’s 352.

I see Walsh as his threat now.

[JoeAman08]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Imho Pato needs a carrot.  He has 2 carrots dangling at the mo’....1) his place in the team if his form drops off 2) contract ends this summer.  From his recent interview he seems to have grown up, realised what he has here at Bristol City.

He is the best technical player we have, playing in a system that suits him.  Has flat spots in game, but generally he’s been a key player in Holden’s 352.

I see Walsh as his threat now.

Agree about the growing up. You get a sense that the Derby loan was a wake up call for his career. He could have just taken whatever minutes for the next 18 months and coasted and someone in the championship would have given him a contracts but probably lower tier. Instead he kicked on and got serious. 
 

About Walsh I agree but is quite different types of players. I know Walsh has that goal he scored where he dribbles past a few defenders but that is kind of the exception. Walsh seems more of a passing creator whereas Pato is a dribbler. Paterson is a better goal scorer and more agile player. Anyway it isn’t like for like which is fine I just wonder if Walsh can bring enough to be an upgrade on Pato in that position. Always saw Walsh as a deeper CM. 

[Selred]

1 hour ago, BOSRed said:

So no sale included in loan. If that’s the case, it baffles me why we would strengthen a division rival?

 

Because we have too many players (so hard to keep everyone happy) plus as someone else said, it would save around £500k in wages.

[TomThumb84]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Imho Pato needs a carrot.  He has 2 carrots dangling at the mo’....1) his place in the team if his form drops off 2) contract ends this summer.  From his recent interview he seems to have grown up, realised what he has here at Bristol City.

He is the best technical player we have, playing in a system that suits him.  Has flat spots in game, but generally he’s been a key player in Holden’s 352.

I see Walsh as his threat now.

I agree Pato is key to this side, but not sure that Walsh is his main threat.

I think a midfield with Walsh and Pato both in would be an option as Walsh likes to pick out runners and can switch a ball quickly. Midfield runners off this and second balls off Martin/Diedhiou would be an option.

We do seem to like to flood the final third with runners once we get the ball in the right areas and Pato seems to be able to ghost around and is quite quick.

I think when you add Weimann and Williams into the mix, and with the emergence of Bakinson, the reality is that we will rotate the midfield around and not have a “set 3”, more a horses for courses approach to games. This is exciting if it is the case as it will really test the tactics and prep from Dean and his two coaches. They have good selection problems ahead!

[awbb]

The way I see it, loaning Kasey fills 2 needs. 1; DH doesn't have to worry about keeping him happy when it's clear we don't really have room for him and 2 we presumably get some or all of his wages off the books.

The only downside is, if he clicks regularly he will make Swansea better. From what we have seen of him at City it's unlikely to be over a long enough period to make that much difference.

I think it's a fair enough move as a result, agreed sale fee or not.

(My feeling on the Paterson loan was much the same, though I was still scratching my head about why we signed both Szmodics and Palmer at that point)

[LondonBristolian]

Bottom line is that, like Eliasson, Palmer just doesn't have a role in the current team. Even if Paterson's form dips, I think Walsh, Nagy or Brunt are better options within our formation. It's a shame as, bar a brief period at the start of last season, he's never had a system that works for him but I just think the fairest thing is to move him on. 

[TonyTonyTony]

53 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Imho Pato needs a carrot.

Sod that  - give the boy a burger. If he had more bulk he would be even more dangerous

RE: KP - time to move on. Its clearly not happening for him here. I think a lot of fans get giddy over certain players based on what they think they can do, rather than what have actually demonstrated (Morrell etc.) Aside from a few brilliant moments he just drifted about. Clearly talented but needs to learn to put a shift in. The modern game doesn't put up with "lazy" players - look at Ozil etc

 

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, Selred said:

Because we have too many players (so hard to keep everyone happy) plus as someone else said, it would save around £500k in wages.

True, but really disappointed we haven’t held firmer on making a permanent deal a feature of this.

His career so far suggests it is highly likely they will send him back at the end of the season, if not we can expect some pathetic bid (£500k probably) from Swansea for a player who cost us seven times that amount.

[LondonBristolian]

2 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

True, but really disappointed we haven’t held firmer on making a permanent deal a feature of this.

His career so far suggests it is highly likely they will send him back at the end of the season, if not we can expect some pathetic bid (£500k probably) from Swansea for a player who cost us seven times that amount.

I guess the risk is, had we held too firm, Swansea may have walked away and we'd have ended up with too many players in that position. At least this way, we save his wages, we don't pay a player who isn't going to get game and, if he does deliver for Swansea, we're in a much stronger negotiating position come May. 

[Selred]

3 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

True, but really disappointed we haven’t held firmer on making a permanent deal a feature of this.

 

I mean I don't like Ashton, but he can do a deal. This is probably the best deal we can get right now!

[GrahamC]

3 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I guess the risk is, had we held too firm, Swansea may have walked away and we'd have ended up with too many players in that position. At least this way, we save his wages, we don't pay a player who isn't going to get game and, if he does deliver for Swansea, we're in a much stronger negotiating position come May. 

All true.

If he goes we then have a squad of 25, large but not ridiculous & with Morrell going this week, Eliasson last & a few out on loan since Szmodics left, we have made some savings.

I just think we are in a weak bargaining position by agreeing to this without a permanent deal lined up & in May Covid will be the reason they offer us a pitiful amount if they want him.

[Shuffle]

29 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

All true.

If he goes we then have a squad of 25, large but not ridiculous & with Morrell going this week, Eliasson last & a few out on loan since Szmodics left, we have made some savings.

I just think we are in a weak bargaining position by agreeing to this without a permanent deal lined up & in May Covid will be the reason they offer us a pitiful amount if they want him.

Think you’re writing off the possibility that Palmer would be successful as know you are not a fan. He could go out and be a huge success which makes him more marketable to not just Swansea.  Palmer has definitely split opinions amongst fans but if he’s not going to play then take the saving in wages.

Good luck to Kasey as hope he proves a lot of people wrong.

[Port Said Red]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Imho Pato needs a carrot.  He has 2 carrots dangling at the mo’....1) his place in the team if his form drops off 2) contract ends this summer.  From his recent interview he seems to have grown up, realised what he has here at Bristol City.

He is the best technical player we have, playing in a system that suits him.  Has flat spots in game, but generally he’s been a key player in Holden’s 352.

I see Walsh as his threat now.

I was shocked in that interview when he said that he has been here 5 years, I was still thinking of him as "that guy we bought from Forest". For all his so called inconsistency, he has still scored nearly 1 in 5 from midfield and has added a good work rate to cover for when he isn't at the top of his game.. 
As for kasey Palmer, to come down to that lack of consistency, the question is, is he inconsistent because he hasn't had a run of games, or does he not get a run of games because he is inconsistent. Either way, he isn't going to get a run of games here so he needs to go elsewhere. Maybe when he gets to Pato's age he will have a better understanding of how to effect games even when he is out of form.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

Agree about the growing up. You get a sense that the Derby loan was a wake up call for his career. He could have just taken whatever minutes for the next 18 months and coasted and someone in the championship would have given him a contracts but probably lower tier. Instead he kicked on and got serious. 
 

About Walsh I agree but is quite different types of players. I know Walsh has that goal he scored where he dribbles past a few defenders but that is kind of the exception. Walsh seems more of a passing creator whereas Pato is a dribbler. Paterson is a better goal scorer and more agile player. Anyway it isn’t like for like which is fine I just wonder if Walsh can bring enough to be an upgrade on Pato in that position. Always saw Walsh as a deeper CM. 

Yep, creative midfielders....but in different ways.  Think we will see all remaining midfielders blended in different ways throughout the season.  

2 hours ago, TomThumb84 said:

I agree Pato is key to this side, but not sure that Walsh is his main threat.

I think a midfield with Walsh and Pato both in would be an option as Walsh likes to pick out runners and can switch a ball quickly. Midfield runners off this and second balls off Martin/Diedhiou would be an option.

We do seem to like to flood the final third with runners once we get the ball in the right areas and Pato seems to be able to ghost around and is quite quick.

I think when you add Weimann and Williams into the mix, and with the emergence of Bakinson, the reality is that we will rotate the midfield around and not have a “set 3”, more a horses for courses approach to games. This is exciting if it is the case as it will really test the tactics and prep from Dean and his two coaches. They have good selection problems ahead!

As you say no reason why Walsh and Pato couldn’t play together. I just see most of Pato’s “lost minutes” going to Walsh....but Walsh a role to play elsewhere too.
 

it’s gonna be good to see when they’re all fit.

[GrahamC]

59 minutes ago, Shuffle said:

Think you’re writing off the possibility that Palmer would be successful as know you are not a fan. He could go out and be a huge success which makes him more marketable to not just Swansea.  Palmer has definitely split opinions amongst fans but if he’s not going to play then take the saving in wages.

Good luck to Kasey as hope he proves a lot of people wrong.

That is clearly a possibility.

Problem is as the pandemic continues the transfer market below the Prem is going to get flatter & flatter & even lower fees will be offered.

Nothing in this case to do with my opinion of him, just think a poor negotiating tactic not to get a fee agreed now.

[Major Isewater]

3 hours ago, Taz said:

The fact that he signed so late in the day, I think points towards KP being an Ashton signing.

I think it was, on paper, too good an opportunity to resist.

That it hasn’t worked out is just unfortunate and that happens with some transfers.

[Red-Robbo]

If it means I won't have to hear that cringeworthy song again, I'm in favour.

[Coxy27]

1 minute ago, Red-Robbo said:

If it means I won't have to hear that cringeworthy song again, I'm in favour.

You seem a little bitter, I presume he really did shag your wife?

[Merrick's Marvels]

8 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

If it means I won't have to hear that cringeworthy song again, I'm in favour.

Agree 1000% (out of likes for the day). 

[Red-Robbo]

15 minutes ago, Coxy27 said:

You seem a little bitter, I presume he really did shag your wife?

She'd have zero interest in him. 

I'd be worried if I saw Andi Weimann's car parked outside my house though. 

[LondonBristolian]

2 hours ago, GrahamC said:

All true.

If he goes we then have a squad of 25, large but not ridiculous & with Morrell going this week, Eliasson last & a few out on loan since Szmodics left, we have made some savings.

I just think we are in a weak bargaining position by agreeing to this without a permanent deal lined up & in May Covid will be the reason they offer us a pitiful amount if they want him.

To be honest. I think we are in a weak position in any case. We've spent £4 million or whatever on a player we didn't need and haven't used and, if he's in the squad and not playing, he's just deprecating in value. Loaning him to Swansea is a risk but, if Swansea were not interested in a permanent, I think it better we loan him and hope he proves his value rather than and maybe we can get more money from him. It's a gamble though, of course. 

[Merrick's Marvels]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Imho Pato needs a carrot.  He has 2 carrots dangling at the mo’....1) his place in the team if his form drops off 2) contract ends this summer.  From his recent interview he seems to have grown up, realised what he has here at Bristol City.

He is the best technical player we have, playing in a system that suits him.  Has flat spots in game, but generally he’s been a key player in Holden’s 352.

I see Walsh as his threat now.

I think it was you, Dave, who described our midfield 3 in broad terms as one holding, one creative, one runner. As I see it, this now looks like:

Holding: Bakinson, Brunt (Williams/Massengo/Nagy)

Creative: Paterson, Walsh (Nagy)

Runner: Weimann, Williams (Massengo) 

Broad descriptions only. Williams is more than just a runner, as is Weimann tbf when you consider the goals he brings.

Massengo and Nagy very much last in line for me. I'd much prefer it to have been Nagy leaving instead of Morrell but I think it's best to let go of that one. What's done is done.    

As for Palmer, the pass for Rowe to score at Birmingham and the pass for Brownhill to score at home against ??? were Premier League class in their vision and execution but he simply hasn't done enough to warrant a run in the side and has proved an astronomical waste of money. 

Swansea may have a great season, even without Palmer, but they can only take 1 of the top 6 positions - that still leaves another 5 places up for grabs. They could have a great season and Palmer make a massive contribution along the way - on the avaiilable evidence, this seems unlikely and so our decision to let him go to a rival is - on balance - a calculated, but understandable, gamble. If I was going to have a bet, I'd say Swansea will be there or thereabouts and Palmer will perform just as he has everywhere else he's been.       

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I think it was you, Dave, who described our midfield 3 in broad terms as one holding, one creative, one runner. As I see it, this now looks like:

Holding: Bakinson, Brunt (Williams/Massengo/Nagy)

Creative: Paterson, Walsh (Nagy)

Runner: Weimann, Williams (Massengo) 

Broad descriptions as Williams is more than just a runner, as is Weimann tbf when you consider the goals he brings. Massengo and Nagy very much last in line for me. 

I'd much prefer it to have been Nagy leaving instead of Morrell but I think it's best to let go of that one. What's done is done.    

Nah, not me....I dislike the terminology as much as the latest vogue for calling it “a 6 and two 8s”.  I’m old skool.  I get why people have described them like this, and I get the blend.  They aren’t wrong, I just don’t like it per se.  Silly old fart that I am!

They are just midfielders to me, asked to play in a way to benefit the team.  And it is exactly that pigeon-holing of a player like Williams who has so many facets to his game that slightly frustrates me.

[GrahamC]

34 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I think it was you, Dave, who described our midfield 3 in broad terms as one holding, one creative, one runner. As I see it, this now looks like:

Holding: Bakinson, Brunt (Williams/Massengo/Nagy)

Creative: Paterson, Walsh (Nagy)

Runner: Weimann, Williams (Massengo) 

Broad descriptions only. Williams is more than just a runner, as is Weimann tbf when you consider the goals he brings.

Massengo and Nagy very much last in line for me. I'd much prefer it to have been Nagy leaving instead of Morrell but I think it's best to let go of that one. What's done is done.    

As for Palmer, the pass for Rowe to score at Birmingham and the pass for Brownhill to score at home against ??? were Premier League class in their vision and execution but he simply hasn't done enough to warrant a run in the side and has proved an astronomical waste of money. 

Swansea may have a great season, even without Palmer, but they can only take 1 of the top 6 positions - that still leaves another 5 places up for grabs. They could have a great season and Palmer make a massive contribution along the way - on the avaiilable evidence, this seems unlikely and so our decision to let him go to a rival is - on balance - a calculated, but understandable, gamble. If I was going to have a bet, I'd say Swansea will be there or thereabouts and Palmer will perform just as he has everywhere else he's been.       

Agree with every word of that, so would just add that at only 18 & in England for the first time Massengo was ridiculously overused in the first half of last season after we sold Pack, with Nagy was regularly injured up until November.

He was 19 in June, so in fact he is even younger than Louis Britton who has just been loaned to Torquay.

I am therefore completely comfortable having him around the squad this season without actually playing that much, he has years to improve yet (despite someone seriously saying to me he has “regressed” since being at City).

Nagy is a very different issue though & certainly one to resolve in January.

[LondonBristolian]

47 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Nah, not me....I dislike the terminology as much as the latest vogue for calling it “a 6 and two 8s”.  I’m old skool.  I get why people have described them like this, and I get the blend.  They aren’t wrong, I just don’t like it per se.  Silly old fart that I am!

They are just midfielders to me, asked to play in a way to benefit the team.  And it is exactly that pigeon-holing of a player like Williams who has so many facets to his game that slightly frustrates me.

Is this the time for me to sheepishly raise my hand and say it might have been me who was talking about the runners, holders and creators? (Other posters may have done it too). To be clear, as @Merrick's Marvelssays, it was a deliberate over-simplification to broadly explain the mix rather than any attempt to pigeonhole the players.  Clearly all of them have more to their game than one simple attribute.