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Silvio Dante

By Silvio Dante
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If you punch a player when they’re offside you’ll still be sent off but it’s seemingly fine to go in two footed knee high.  Hope VD is ok as that could easily be knee ligaments territory 

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Silvio Dante

Silvio Dante

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I wonder what the limits of VAR are here. Clearly they checked the offside, and they have the remit to check violent conduct. However, is it the case that once VAR has confirmed it’s offside they then can’t give the Pickford decision, as in effect the ball is dead and VAR doesn’t have authority over non “in play” scenarios?

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Midred

Midred

Posted
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26 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I wonder what the limits of VAR are here. Clearly they checked the offside, and they have the remit to check violent conduct. However, is it the case that once VAR has confirmed it’s offside they then can’t give the Pickford decision, as in effect the ball is dead and VAR doesn’t have authority over non “in play” scenarios?

So have the referees given over all responsibility and authority to VAR?

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Nibor

Nibor

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40 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Violent conduct is violent conduct whether player was offside or not. Ref could have sent him off and bottled it.  

It's on the ball so it's serious foul play not violent conduct.

The offside is irrelevant to it, I don't know how he stayed on but it wasn't because of the offside.

It was a worse challenge than the one Richarlison has just been sent off for.

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Luxo Jr.

Luxo Jr.

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Just now, Banjo Island said:

The biggest problem with var is we have a tosspot ref giving decisions on the pitch and a tosspot ref giving decisions in the var booth there really is no hope 

But Michael Oliver allowed the goal and didn't see the challenge? He really didn't have a bad game today.

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CiderJar

CiderJar

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3 hours ago, RedYoshi said:

Pretty sure it’s already possible. Referees can book/send off players at any point before/during/after the match. And in this case, he should’ve done.

... and Pickford was not penalised at all, and yet Callum O'Dowda.....

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Baba Yaga

Baba Yaga

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Would have killed the game if Pickford was sent off, still very lucky though. The offside call at the end was more of a scandal for me personally, lots of spin on Henderson's shot but Pickford got away with another one there too. He made a couple of good saves but very much a mixed performance.

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LondonBristolian

LondonBristolian

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I'm not defending Pickford - it was an utterly atrocious tackle - but I thought it was more the reckless uncoordinated lunge of a player who doesn't do slide tackles very often rather someone going out to deliberately cause harm. Obviously the end point is the same though and it certainly should have been a red card. 

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Lrrr

Lrrr

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It’s a straight red no doubt about it every single time, he’s lunged totally out of control and made contact just below the knee. Look at Dunk’s red, white still a red it’s similar in how he lunged and jumped forward.

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Numero Uno

Numero Uno

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It was a poor challenge and deserved a red. However it was clumsy more than anything and I do not believe for a second that Pickford set out to "do Van Dyke"..........have a look at Roy Keane's tackle on Alfe Inge Haaland years ago, that's how you "do" someone with intent (and if Keane is to be believed he had good reason). It is very unfortunate that Van Dyke is out for months but this does happen in football unfortunately.....occupational hazard as we know at this club more than most it seems. However and possibly predictably there are plenty of Liverpool "fans" on social media who are calling for legal action to be taken against both Pickford and Everton.

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Numero Uno

Numero Uno

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, BanburyRed said:

Might want to keep his head down in and around Liverpool.....

The only time Jordan Pickford will EVER be in Liverpool is to either drive to Goodison on matchday or to the training ground the rest of the week. He will no doubt be living in a very expensive pad in some nice, small Cheshire town somewhere. He won't be picking up a packet of fags from some Norris Green newsagent on his way home from training......

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1960maaan

1960maaan

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24 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

It was a poor challenge and deserved a red. However it was clumsy more than anything and I do not believe for a second that Pickford set out to "do Van Dyke"

This is pretty much where I stand. In that position 90% of keepers would make some sort of challenge there, and probably by spreading themselves too. Clumsy? Definitely, Reckless? Probably. Deliberate? not for me. 

In the current climate with VAR I am surprised they didn't look at it, but they seem too scared to make any common sense decisions or make the Ref look at things. Yes technically play had stopped as soon as the offside was given, but it had been a punch they would have flagged it, I don't see the difference. VAR is next to useless .

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Super

Super

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38 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

This is pretty much where I stand. In that position 90% of keepers would make some sort of challenge there, and probably by spreading themselves too. Clumsy? Definitely, Reckless? Probably. Deliberate? not for me. 

In the current climate with VAR I am surprised they didn't look at it, but they seem too scared to make any common sense decisions or make the Ref look at things. Yes technically play had stopped as soon as the offside was given, but it had been a punch they would have flagged it, I don't see the difference. VAR is next to useless .

It's the idiots using it that are useless.

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1960maaan

1960maaan

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16 minutes ago, Super said:

It's the idiots using it that are useless.

TBF to those idiots , and I don't disagree with that term, they aren't helped by the rules. 
The offside needs to be simplified. Maybe use a players boots as a reference point , slightly less chance of error?
The handball rule needs an overhaul.
The whole thing needs to be time sensitive. If you haven't made a decision in 3/4 looks or 2 minutes give up.
Plus I'd still relegate Villa now on the non goal from last year. 

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Denbury Red

Denbury Red

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Just seen that VAR apparently considered the challenge wasn’t a Red Card at the time hence no further action will be taken.

This is absolutely disgusting - it was as clear a Red Card as you could see.

In other Prem Games when VAR is considering if Violent Play has taken place we a message shown on the big screens advising us this was being considered - there was no message of this sort at the time meaning VAR didn’t even consider it.

The FA should be ashamed of themselves - admit when they have got it wrong.

Does this give licence to any player to jump through the air and take a player down in the same way Pickford has done - and then insist they have done nothing wrong!!!

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Numero Uno

Numero Uno

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50 minutes ago, Denbury Red said:

Just seen that VAR apparently considered the challenge wasn’t a Red Card at the time hence no further action will be taken.

This is absolutely disgusting - it was as clear a Red Card as you could see.

In other Prem Games when VAR is considering if Violent Play has taken place we a message shown on the big screens advising us this was being considered - there was no message of this sort at the time meaning VAR didn’t even consider it.

The FA should be ashamed of themselves - admit when they have got it wrong.

Does this give licence to any player to jump through the air and take a player down in the same way Pickford has done - and then insist they have done nothing wrong!!!

Only if said player is so thick and stupid that he is prepared to run the risk of the referee seeing the incident and awarding a red card that will not get overturned. I don't think the manager of any player who took that view would give his player a lot of sympathy, put it that way.

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Laner

Laner

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1 hour ago, Denbury Red said:

Just seen that VAR apparently considered the challenge wasn’t a Red Card at the time hence no further action will be taken.

This is absolutely disgusting - it was as clear a Red Card as you could see.

In other Prem Games when VAR is considering if Violent Play has taken place we a message shown on the big screens advising us this was being considered - there was no message of this sort at the time meaning VAR didn’t even consider it.

The FA should be ashamed of themselves - admit when they have got it wrong.

Does this give licence to any player to jump through the air and take a player down in the same way Pickford has done - and then insist they have done nothing wrong!!!

They'd never admit they got it wrong. And VAR gives them another level of bureaucracy to hide behind.

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grifty

grifty

Posted
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1 hour ago, Denbury Red said:

Just seen that VAR apparently considered the challenge wasn’t a Red Card at the time hence no further action will be taken.

This is absolutely disgusting - it was as clear a Red Card as you could see.

In other Prem Games when VAR is considering if Violent Play has taken place we a message shown on the big screens advising us this was being considered - there was no message of this sort at the time meaning VAR didn’t even consider it.

The FA should be ashamed of themselves - admit when they have got it wrong.

Does this give licence to any player to jump through the air and take a player down in the same way Pickford has done - and then insist they have done nothing wrong!!!

It wasn't as clear a red as you could see and in real time could be construed as a clash or coming together. It's when you watch it 3/4 times over a replay is when you can see it's a very clumsy, awkward challenge that if happening in open play would have been a red and penalty. But this is when Var should step in and advise the ref to go a review on the pitch-side monitor.

The second bit is just stupid.

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maxjak

maxjak

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25 minutes ago, grifty said:

It wasn't as clear a red as you could see and in real time could be construed as a clash or coming together. It's when you watch it 3/4 times over a replay is when you can see it's a very clumsy, awkward challenge that if happening in open play would have been a red and penalty. But this is when Var should step in and advise the ref to go a review on the pitch-side monitor.

The second bit is just stupid.

Agreed ........very silly comment regarding licencing players to act similarly.  But I have to say, when I saw the challenge in real time, I was suprised that Pickford was not red carded.....as it seemed reckless, dangerous and very high, and you could also tell that VVD was in a lot of pain. Straight Red for me.

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JamesBCFC

JamesBCFC

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6 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

TBF to those idiots , and I don't disagree with that term, they aren't helped by the rules. 
The offside needs to be simplified. Maybe use a players boots as a reference point , slightly less chance of error?
The handball rule needs an overhaul.
The whole thing needs to be time sensitive. If you haven't made a decision in 3/4 looks or 2 minutes give up.
Plus I'd still relegate Villa now on the non goal from last year. 

Rule changes still won't fix the issues with VAR, thickness of lines, or what part of the body is all irrelevant when they do not (cannot) pinpoint the exact frame where the ball leaves the foot of the person playing the pass (talking about offsides for this case).

If the pause is a tenth of a second off, you could easily have enough movement between the forward and defender to change whether the decision should be offside or onside.

Its still a shambles regardless as it was meant to be brought in for clear and obvious errors,  but it is used to quibble over whether someone's pube was offside or not.

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downendcity

downendcity

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6 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

It was a poor challenge and deserved a red. However it was clumsy more than anything and I do not believe for a second that Pickford set out to "do Van Dyke"..........have a look at Roy Keane's tackle on Alfe Inge Haaland years ago, that's how you "do" someone with intent (and if Keane is to be believed he had good reason). It is very unfortunate that Van Dyke is out for months but this does happen in football unfortunately.....occupational hazard as we know at this club more than most it seems. However and possibly predictably there are plenty of Liverpool "fans" on social media who are calling for legal action to be taken against both Pickford and Everton.

I don't think the award of a red card is determined by whether the player had any intent intent on “doing” the opposition player. In fact I would say that a majority of straight reds are clumsy/mistimed with no intent to harm the other player.

As a post script, I caught Adrian Durham discussing the challenge on Talksport when I was on the way home a little earlier. He felt that Michael Oliver was waiting for VAR to kick in and make the decision, which of course didn’t happen. This is  a concern and something I think happens more and more, and especially with potentially contentious decisions. Rather than make a decision and risk the embarrassment of the decision being overturned by VAR, are referees now happy to let it ride and if VAR picks it up they can always argue that they didn't see the incident/see it clearly enough as a get out of jail free card?

I think when it was introduced most of us envisioned VAR being used to decide those marginal offsides that always cause debate and disagreement. However, as VAR has become increasingly involved in almost every decision and even incidents occurring prior to a goal, the real danger is that referees increasingly abdicate their responsibility to make on field decisionsdecisions. 

 

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Numero Uno

Numero Uno

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1 minute ago, downendcity said:

I don't think the award of a red card is determined by whether the player had any intent intent on “doing” the opposition player. In fact I would say that a majority of straight reds are clumsy/mistimed with no intent to harm the other player.

As a post script, I caught Adrian Durham discussing the challenge on Talksport when I was on the way home a little earlier. He felt that Michael Oliver was waiting for VAR to kick in and make the decision, which of course didn’t happen. This is  a concern and something I think happens more and more, and especially with potentially contentious decisions. Rather than make a decision and risk the embarrassment of the decision being overturned by VAR, are referees now happy to let it ride and if VAR picks it up they can always argue that they didn't see the incident/see it clearly enough as a get out of jail free card?

I think when it was introduced most of us envisioned VAR being used to decide those marginal offsides that always cause debate and disagreement. However, as VAR has become increasingly involved in almost every decision and even incidents occurring prior to a goal, the real danger is that referees increasingly abdicate their responsibility to make on field decisionsdecisions. 

 

Agreed, a clear red card. My point is aimed at the nutters on twitter asking for legal action, compensation and all that kind of stuff.

Also agree that VAR is stopping officials do what they are paid to do ie make decisions.

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Denbury Red

Denbury Red

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VAR has a place in football - what we seem to have got wrong is the implementation in allowing the final decision to be that of the VAR referee rather than the on field ref.

If football insisted the on field Ref look at the monitor whenever a marginal decision needed to be made and then was made to be responsible for the final decision things would improve.

I watched Exeter Chiefs yesterday, and one phrase which Rugby refs regularly use is “is there any reason why I can’t award a try?” - the TMO (Rugby’s VAR) then helps the Ref make the final decision.

This seems to be streets ahead of football in the use of technology.

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Akira

Akira

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44 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Death threats to both Pickford and Richarlison being looked into. Is it any wonder Liverpool FC have an “always the victim” reputation?
 

All I am waiting for is some total weapon on here to justify it.........

Don't think you'll get anyone on here justifying death threats, regardless of how much of a tool they are. 

 

Totally unacceptable. And just makes you and your club look pathetic. 

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Carey 6

Carey 6

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45 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Death threats to both Pickford and Richarlison being looked into. Is it any wonder Liverpool FC have an “always the victim” reputation?
 

All I am waiting for is some total weapon on here to justify it.........

No surprise is it. Even Gerrard got threats when he nearly signed for Chelsea.

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The Bard

The Bard

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Posted
17 hours ago, Denbury Red said:

VAR has a place in football - what we seem to have got wrong is the implementation in allowing the final decision to be that of the VAR referee rather than the on field ref.

If football insisted the on field Ref look at the monitor whenever a marginal decision needed to be made and then was made to be responsible for the final decision things would improve.

I watched Exeter Chiefs yesterday, and one phrase which Rugby refs regularly use is “is there any reason why I can’t award a try?” - the TMO (Rugby’s VAR) then helps the Ref make the final decision.

This seems to be streets ahead of football in the use of technology.

The first step to resolving this has got to be transparency and that means having the conversations between VAR and the ref broadcast live.    

In Rugby you can hear everything what is said, which means the commentators apologising everytime there's a scrum because of the language of the players.  I'm not suggesting that in football, but I would suggest that as soon as there is any potential VAR involvement, they should turn on the mikes of the VAR person and the Referee and assistants and the decision making process is carried out with people being able to be hear. 

It will have a number of benefits:-

1.  Make decision making process clearer to everyone.

2. Allow for better assessment of VAR and referees' performance ongoing as it will lay bare their failings and successes.  They are guessing at the moment.

3.  Ensure ownership of decisions by the referee rather than someone in an office in London which is deeply suspicious.

4.  Should promote more understanding of the referees' situation and appreciation of the refs who are good at what they do.  It will also make the likes of 'Jamie' with his permanent whingeing look like even more of a manual manipulator.

Clear and obvious should be kept to with offsides rather than drawing little lines over a screen to show a player's armpit hair was offside.  Referee should decide that not someone on a ******* computer.  The ridiculous thing about Mane's offside at the weekend was he came from a milimetre offside back into an obviously onside position.  No advantage was gained.

VAR is the obvious role for retiring refs to go into.  Wayne Barnes was the TMO for the Exeter v Bath game last weekend and that was refereeed superbly as he kept the ref right on his toes. The Bristol v Wasps game on the same day was a shambles.  The ref got loads of decisions clearly wrong as there was a mute in the TMO role.  

What English football has come up with is completely shit.  

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