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IGNORED

Well done Callum


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2 hours ago, IAmNick said:

Not O'Dowda's biggest fan but I actually thought he was doing pretty well and looked bright after coming on. He often gets accused of hiding a bit, but I don't think he was this game which was good to see.

That goes out the window though as I thought it was a foolish challenge to make (easy to say in hindsight!), he was late, and I'm not wholly convinced he was really trying to win the header. However if he'd stood there and let the guy head it on unchallenged he'd be getting pelters too. You could ask why Callum was there with two men and no support.

Here's the clip I took - make your own mind up: https://streamja.com/vVmAA

Thank you for posting that, and yes it was a clear penalty. Callum was clearly picking up the wider of the two players, and then seeing that the ball was going to the free one of the two came rushing in late from the wrong side. Certainly a poor challenge, but someone else wasn't picking up their man either. A pity, because up to that time he had looked good. Time to support that lad - he could be a good player for us this year.

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

No, that would’ve been better decision making Jon. Sollbauer was 60/40 favourite to make, but the best he was gonna do was head it towards the player to the right of him.  

If you can’t win the ball without seriously risking giving away a free-kick right on the edge of the area, or a penalty for fear of getting hurt....don’t make the challenge!  Had Callum stood off, he’d have been better positioned to close down the player on the outside (had he got to the ball).

Its harsh.  It’s a split second decision - ultimately the wrong one.  But I think it is made because he’s trying not to get hurt.

As I said, I thought he did well today, but this is about one action where he got it wrong.  Just like Max getting caught flat footed for their goal, just like Vyner did for Helik to score.  Just like Wells did by taking a poor touch in the first half.

Sometimes criticism of an action is the right thing.  One poor action doesn’t need to be excused or over defended because you rate a player.  Today was the most encouraged I’ve been in Callum in a long long time.

 

But that's not lack of commitment and heart. You think he's made the wrong decision. He very strongly challenged for it. How on earth can that be lack of commitment and heart?

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16 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

But that's not lack of commitment and heart. You think he's made the wrong decision. He very strongly challenged for it. How on earth can that be lack of commitment and heart?

A strong challenge?  You mean recklessly / cowardly leading with an elbow.  That’s not a strong challenge.  That’s a “bottler’s” challenge.  If he was “brave” (heart and commitment) he’d have been prepared to get injured to defend it fairly.  I think he could’ve avoided making the challenge by showing intelligence and awareness of the situation.  Instead he exposed his lack of bravery.

Its unfortunate, it’s split-second stuff.  I certainly don’t blame him though for costing us points, like some are.  There are several things to pick up on as to why the ball came to be in that position, but this thread is about him / the penalty / his challenge.

The reason I’m going on about this is because it’s one of many times I’ve seen him display these traits.  He’s not prepared to put his body on the line.

He has other skills that may compensate for that overall.  You seem to take any criticism of something Callum does as a criticism of you, because of your view of him as player.

I’m cool that you rate him....you see things in him that I don’t.  That’s fine.  Today he displayed some of those things you like about him....which encouraged me too (maybe Holden will make him - fantastic if he does).  But he also showed in that instance one of his weaknesses too.

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9 minutes ago, Super said:

Amazed people still cant see it!

It's a penalty, end of super. I totally agree with you and JJT.

We never win at Oakwell so I'll take that and move on to 'Boro. Yes, it's tough when you leading very, very late on but it's a certain penalty.

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54 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

It's a penalty, end of super. I totally agree with you and JJT.

We never win at Oakwell so I'll take that and move on to 'Boro. Yes, it's tough when you leading very, very late on but it's a certain penalty.

You are right totally, move on it’s gone and let’s focus on the next, however he is a player that splits opinion on many levels and to be fair/honest when LJ begged him to stay gave him a lucrative contract and then said we’ve signed a £10m player, there  is the problem!!! He is definitely not a starter maybe a we’re 1 or 2 behind go and see what you can do type, but you would never build a team around him cause he is just not good enough, simple as that. But and I’m sorry Dean got it wrong today as he is also not a close it out away from home and take the hard fought win player, simple as that, should not have even been on the pitch in the first place!!!

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Just watched it over and over again. Sorry, its late, reckless and frankly ridiculous. To do that on 18 yards when your team is 30 seconds from victory is scandalous. What is he thinking?

By the way this is not an attack on COD, but a very damning verdict on his action in that moment. 
 

I am so annoyed cause that was 5 from 5 right there. I reckon Dean Holden is a stand up bloke but I would find that decision making from Callum very hard to forget.

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

A strong challenge?  You mean recklessly / cowardly leading with an elbow.  That’s not a strong challenge.  That’s a “bottler’s” challenge.  If he was “brave” (heart and commitment) he’d have been prepared to get injured to defend it fairly.  I think he could’ve avoided making the challenge by showing intelligence and awareness of the situation.  Instead he exposed his lack of bravery.

Its unfortunate, it’s split-second stuff.  I certainly don’t blame him though for costing us points, like some are.  There are several things to pick up on as to why the ball came to be in that position, but this thread is about him / the penalty / his challenge.

The reason I’m going on about this is because it’s one of many times I’ve seen him display these traits.  He’s not prepared to put his body on the line.

He has other skills that may compensate for that overall.  You seem to take any criticism of something Callum does as a criticism of you, because of your view of him as player.

I’m cool that you rate him....you see things in him that I don’t.  That’s fine.  Today he displayed some of those things you like about him....which encouraged me too (maybe Holden will make him - fantastic if he does).  But he also showed in that instance one of his weaknesses too.

On reflection I’m probably being a tad harsh in what I’ve written above in terms of it being a “bottler’s challenge”....but it wasn’t brave either! 😀

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32 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

On reflection I’m probably being a tad harsh in what I’ve written above in terms of it being a “bottler’s challenge”....but it wasn’t brave either! 😀

It was a bottlers challenge. He wanted to look like he was challenging but was scared to. However it’s done now

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He dont score , seldom assists and not good in defensive. Wrote last season it was a big ? that he was playing instead of Eliasson. Yesterday he had fresh legs and in a way I can understand DH to bring in on. He semester to be a Nice guy, he was on Robins TV once. In my opinion he should not be even on the bench.  As a Cityfan I really want him doing good when he plays but that happens seldom. The pen yesterday shows that he dont know how to act in our own box, the situation was not a clear chance for Barnsley. Think it would take a while before he plays again. We have Brunt, Dasilva, Nagy, Walsh and Williams.

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8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

A strong challenge?  You mean recklessly / cowardly leading with an elbow.  That’s not a strong challenge.  That’s a “bottler’s” challenge.  If he was “brave” (heart and commitment) he’d have been prepared to get injured to defend it fairly.  I think he could’ve avoided making the challenge by showing intelligence and awareness of the situation.  Instead he exposed his lack of bravery.

Its unfortunate, it’s split-second stuff.  I certainly don’t blame him though for costing us points, like some are.  There are several things to pick up on as to why the ball came to be in that position, but this thread is about him / the penalty / his challenge.

The reason I’m going on about this is because it’s one of many times I’ve seen him display these traits.  He’s not prepared to put his body on the line.

He has other skills that may compensate for that overall.  You seem to take any criticism of something Callum does as a criticism of you, because of your view of him as player.

I’m cool that you rate him....you see things in him that I don’t.  That’s fine.  Today he displayed some of those things you like about him....which encouraged me too (maybe Holden will make him - fantastic if he does).  But he also showed in that instance one of his weaknesses too.

I just don't think he bottled it. He went in hard. This has nothing to do with O'Dowda, but any player doing that I'd see it the same way. I don't think he has ever shown to be a bottler in challenges either. I'd say he is better challenging in the air than a fair few others we have. And is stronger at tackling than some we have too. I wouldn't say any of our players are bottlers or cowards.

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13 hours ago, Newquay-Red said:

As I’ve said previously; I’m delighted with how we are doing. One highlight is seeing new players like Bakinson come through and excel, and how we are using these players instead of odd loan signings. It is a sign of how far we have come and I doubt today’s result will have any significant impact in the grand scheme of things.

However for me COD has has numerous chances, has not developed and now it seems that we aren’t overpaying him too, so nobody wants to take him.

I always want any negative opinion I hold about this club or any of its players to be proven as false and moronic but O’Dowda as far as I’m concerned is a negative opinion of mine that he unfortunately proven to be correct.

I think my point is that had he not given away the last second penalty, I assume you wouldn’t have started this thread about what is the point of COD. 

But him making a very costly mistake is a different conversation from his overall use to City as a player. 

And given where we are, and given how wrongheaded a lot of fans are being made to look currently in light of some pre-season doom and gloom and name calling on here (‘are the Lansdowns like the Glazers’ thread being the pinnacle)... given all that, I think it’s best we all start with a blank slate, Including COD. 
 

 

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10 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

ODowda is probably the only one who could score that goal at Norwich last year, and that's what I mean. He runs at players, takes them on and regularly beats them. I think he would have been a major part of the team if he hadn't got injured just as he looked good. After that he didn't hit the same levels, Johnson chopping and changing was never going to help, but he does bring a more disciplined defensive side. I get that people don't rate him for some things I said above, but in a side playing with better movement, more confidence and more structure I think he could shine. The way he skipped passed tackles today shows his worth against tiring defenders

Unfortunately, he does not normally do what you say. Confronted by opponents, he is much more likely to stop, turn 180 degrees and head back toward his own goal.

Anyway, as I wasn't at the match, but listening on RB, Gary Owers said that he thought it was a penalty. He is always forthright with his comments so I take his opinion.

Having just seen the video earlier in this thread, I consider that he led with his elbow which collided with opponents head. Dangerous play? Could have been a red card?

And where it occurred on the edge of the penalty area, if he'd not challenged, would it have created a clear goal scoring opportunity? Doubtful.

Callum has plenty of football skills but lacks what is needed to become a very good team player. The top two inches! 

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15 hours ago, Prinny said:

Well if you ignore the Zak Vyner marking and the Max O'Leary dying starfish for the first goal yeah...

I don't like O'Dowda that much, he was doing ok, one good run, and an absolute moronic challenge which has ended up really hurting someone. Horrifically ill timed, and dangerous to the point where the stretcher comes out.

but it's DEFINITELY not single handed.

That was never a pen

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32 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Unfortunately, he does not normally do what you say. Confronted by opponents, he is much more likely to stop, turn 180 degrees and head back toward his own goal.

Anyway, as I wasn't at the match, but listening on RB, Gary Owers said that he thought it was a penalty. He is always forthright with his comments so I take his opinion.

Having just seen the video earlier in this thread, I consider that he led with his elbow which collided with opponents head. Dangerous play? Could have been a red card?

And where it occurred on the edge of the penalty area, if he'd not challenged, would it have created a clear goal scoring opportunity? Doubtful.

Callum has plenty of football skills but lacks what is needed to become a very good team player. The top two inches! 

First thought was foul, so hard to argue but annoying.
What he does next, and who is fit will have a massive impact on whether he has a future here. 

As for turn 180, that's a trade that all do to some extent, even Eliasson . @Davefevs made a good point about the challenge, he's not being brave and not trying to win the ball. He goes into wanting to protect himself. Even if he doesn't make the challenge and just makes himself 'big' he could block the ball. You could say it's a forwards challenge to some extent.
I thought he would have been sold in the recent cull, but I'm not sure there was interest seeing as he's not played much. I thought the things he can do would be perfect in yesterdays situation, and to that point they had been. It's harsh blaming him for the dropped points alone yesterday. Now if the discussion was do I think he has a long term career here, or do I think he'll be a major part in this season then that's a different thing, I doubt it. 

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10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

A strong challenge?  You mean recklessly / cowardly leading with an elbow.  That’s not a strong challenge.  That’s a “bottler’s” challenge.  If he was “brave” (heart and commitment) he’d have been prepared to get injured to defend it fairly.  I think he could’ve avoided making the challenge by showing intelligence and awareness of the situation.  Instead he exposed his lack of bravery.

Its unfortunate, it’s split-second stuff.  I certainly don’t blame him though for costing us points, like some are.  There are several things to pick up on as to why the ball came to be in that position, but this thread is about him / the penalty / his challenge.

The reason I’m going on about this is because it’s one of many times I’ve seen him display these traits.  He’s not prepared to put his body on the line.

He has other skills that may compensate for that overall.  You seem to take any criticism of something Callum does as a criticism of you, because of your view of him as player.

I’m cool that you rate him....you see things in him that I don’t.  That’s fine.  Today he displayed some of those things you like about him....which encouraged me too (maybe Holden will make him - fantastic if he does).  But he also showed in that instance one of his weaknesses too.

Agree Dave. Maybe not 'bottlers' but rash, unnecessary, thoughtless, dangerous. 

I always remember listening to Louis Carey talking about Sean O'Driscoll who, whatever people thought of him as a manager, players like Louis rated hugely as a coach. 

He talked about how one of the many ways in which SOD got them thinking differently was about whether you always need to make aerial challenges, especially when they are 40/60 or worse against you. He encouraged them not to be averse to stepping back, not from a lack of commitment (even if that's how the crowd would view it) but because usually the opposition player would do nothing constructive as a result. Obviously it's a judgement call, a right time and a wrong time, but it's about thinking and making the right call as a player, not just flying in. I used to watch after I heard that, and it was amazing how often the ball would come straight back to us.

Yesterday was a case in point; there was no need to make the challenge in the first place, never mind that recklessly. 

And, for me, 100% a penalty. Frustrating. 

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10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

A strong challenge?  You mean recklessly / cowardly leading with an elbow.  That’s not a strong challenge.  That’s a “bottler’s” challenge.  If he was “brave” (heart and commitment) he’d have been prepared to get injured to defend it fairly.  I think he could’ve avoided making the challenge by showing intelligence and awareness of the situation.  Instead he exposed his lack of bravery.

Its unfortunate, it’s split-second stuff.  I certainly don’t blame him though for costing us points, like some are.  There are several things to pick up on as to why the ball came to be in that position, but this thread is about him / the penalty / his challenge.

The reason I’m going on about this is because it’s one of many times I’ve seen him display these traits.  He’s not prepared to put his body on the line.

He has other skills that may compensate for that overall.  You seem to take any criticism of something Callum does as a criticism of you, because of your view of him as player.

I’m cool that you rate him....you see things in him that I don’t.  That’s fine.  Today he displayed some of those things you like about him....which encouraged me too (maybe Holden will make him - fantastic if he does).  But he also showed in that instance one of his weaknesses too.

I remember a similiar stupid foul against Villa at home a few seasons ago (drew 1-1 i think). Gave away a free kick needlessly that Bjarnason scored from.

COD has always struck me as a bit if a liability in defensive situations. Gets turned easily, and is often out of position. 

Heh ho, we go again.

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I’m not O’Dowda’s biggest fan, but my opinion is that he’s never been a brave footballer. By that I mean he’s not up for a 50/50 challenge generally he’ll turn and jump away from the ball as the opponent comes through expecting a clash of legs. Those are in situations where he won’t have much time to make a decision.

This is a slightly different circumstance but if the above has been identified by the coaching staff and he’s been told to improve that side of his game then outcomes like this are an understandable if frustrating consequence.
 

Ultimatelt, He appears to have no natural ability at judging when to challenge for a 50/50 as he is used to not getting involved. He can certainly improve this but it’s going to be a while l, if he can bring himself to risk getting hurt to win the ball... albeit this time he was the one who caused the injury to his opponent.
 

An aside of this, I was always taught that ducking out of a challenge was far more likely to get you hurt than if you commit to it. This might have just been ancient coaches encouraging mild violence between their pre-adolescent charges though.

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It's very blatantly a foul. I don't think it is the worst challenge in the world, and it is unfortunate the guy got hurt, but - when you watch it back - it seems pretty clear to me he was not tight enough to challenge to the guy, realised too late he wasn't in a position to challenge effectively, piled into it anyway and caught him well after the ball had left. It was utterly reckless. I don't think he even had a 30/70 chance of getting the ball and it would have been better to hold off, accept the mistake and hope someone cleared. I don't think it is by any means the worst thing anyone has done in the heat of the moment of a football match but it was absolutely definitely a foul. 

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2 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

First thought was foul, so hard to argue but annoying.
What he does next, and who is fit will have a massive impact on whether he has a future here. 

As for turn 180, that's a trade that all do to some extent, even Eliasson . @Davefevs made a good point about the challenge, he's not being brave and not trying to win the ball. He goes into wanting to protect himself. Even if he doesn't make the challenge and just makes himself 'big' he could block the ball. You could say it's a forwards challenge to some extent.
I thought he would have been sold in the recent cull, but I'm not sure there was interest seeing as he's not played much. I thought the things he can do would be perfect in yesterdays situation, and to that point they had been. It's harsh blaming him for the dropped points alone yesterday. Now if the discussion was do I think he has a long term career here, or do I think he'll be a major part in this season then that's a different thing, I doubt it. 

Agree.  I don’t blame him at all.  His just made a poor judgement to go for the ball, and then executed it badly.

1 hour ago, italian dave said:

Agree Dave. Maybe not 'bottlers' but rash, unnecessary, thoughtless, dangerous. 

I always remember listening to Louis Carey talking about Sean O'Driscoll who, whatever people thought of him as a manager, players like Louis rated hugely as a coach. 

He talked about how one of the many ways in which SOD got them thinking differently was about whether you always need to make aerial challenges, especially when they are 40/60 or worse against you. He encouraged them not to be averse to stepping back, not from a lack of commitment (even if that's how the crowd would view it) but because usually the opposition player would do nothing constructive as a result. Obviously it's a judgement call, a right time and a wrong time, but it's about thinking and making the right call as a player, not just flying in. I used to watch after I heard that, and it was amazing how often the ball would come straight back to us.

Yesterday was a case in point; there was no need to make the challenge in the first place, never mind that recklessly. 

And, for me, 100% a penalty. Frustrating. 

Exactly my point.  Sollbauer’s header was never going towards goal.  O’Dowda would’ve been better letting him win it and try to cover where the ball lands.

Having decided to go for the ball had he gone in with his head, it would’ve been a sickening clash of heads (eek!), but I suspect the ref would’ve seen it as a fair (fairer?) challenge and he might’ve actually made contact with the ball.  Less chance if a penalty being given.

@JonDolmanwe have two players in our squad who don’t tackle properly, and dangle their legs....Pato and COD.  Pato got injured late last season (might’ve been final game) for dangling a leg in a challenge.  He didn’t want to do a proper block challenge for fear of getting hurt.  Ultimately he did though.  
 

Generally Callum does ok in the air, he’s tall, decent spring.  Pato yesterday blocked a shot, I was quite shocked 😉.

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

It's very blatantly a foul. I don't think it is the worst challenge in the world, and it is unfortunate the guy got hurt, but - when you watch it back - it seems pretty clear to me he was not tight enough to challenge to the guy, realised too late he wasn't in a position to challenge effectively, piled into it anyway and caught him well after the ball had left. It was utterly reckless. I don't think he even had a 30/70 chance of getting the ball and it would have been better to hold off, accept the mistake and hope someone cleared. I don't think it is by any means the worst thing anyone has done in the heat of the moment of a football match but it was absolutely definitely a foul. 

It is one of those that if the opposing player doesnt fall over then it would look fine. I think it was about as much as a pen as other things that are not given as pens, like all the physical contact we see in the penalty area. There should technically be a lot more penalties than there, absolutely loads of them. How many times do we see a player challenge a player who has just shot and goes into player. Happens all the time and is never a pen. Or a nudge to put the player off, or holding etc.

The Barnsley player seems to me to very slightly pull out when he sees O'Dowda coming at him so quickly. I think that's what caused him to get so badly hurt.

As for his positioning, I think he had another player on the outside. Rowe was marking no one in the middle. Would have been better if Rowe had shifted across and then O'Dowda would have been marking the player on the outside.

He was marking 2 players and was kind of trying to be in a position to deal with both, which means he couldn't be close enough to whichever one it went to. If he'd marked either one then the other is completely free.

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27 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

It is one of those that if the opposing player doesnt fall over then it would look fine. I think it was about as much as a pen as other things that are not given as pens, like all the physical contact we see in the penalty area. There should technically be a lot more penalties than there, absolutely loads of them. How many times do we see a player challenge a player who has just shot and goes into player. Happens all the time and is never a pen. Or a nudge to put the player off, or holding etc.

The Barnsley player seems to me to very slightly pull out when he sees O'Dowda coming at him so quickly. I think that's what caused him to get so badly hurt.

As for his positioning, I think he had another player on the outside. Rowe was marking no one in the middle. Would have been better if Rowe had shifted across and then O'Dowda would have been marking the player on the outside.

He was marking 2 players and was kind of trying to be in a position to deal with both, which means he couldn't be close enough to whichever one it went to. If he'd marked either one then the other is completely free.

Jeeez Jon.  Sollbauer won the header on the stretch...how do you “slightly pull out” on the stretch.  He got badly hurt because he was committed and prepared to get hurt, and on watching again this morning he’s made initial contact with Callum’s arm / elbow and then Callum’s shoulder.

Absolutely there are many other factors in what led to the situation, which is why I don’t lay blame at Callum’s feet (or his elbow / shoulder) for us conceding a late penalty...shit happens.  I would only blame a player if they did something stupid like punch a player, or try a dragback on their 6 yard line 😂

But your continued defence of his challenge is the equivalent of him going on an army march and walking out of step, but you’d argue he’s the only one in step and everyone else is out of step.  😉😉😉

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Having took time away from the game yesterday to reflect as was really annoyed at the time, it was a bad decision from Callum to go flying in like he did, just naive. He needs to really snap that out of his game, it's been 4 years now. I am not however blaming him for the 2 points dropped entirely. The defending for the first goal from Vyner was terrible and first half generally was terrible. 

Barnsley can be a hard team to play against, we never seem to get the 3 points done at Oakwell. 

Move onto Tuesday, get a win against Boro and 4 points from the 2 games is a positive return. Still a great start to the season

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