Prinny Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 This is obviously assuming Kalas is ready/for WHEN he's ready. Both had not great games today as well as some good moments. Both had big glaring errors. Vyner obviously on the goal. Moore let someone (Woodrow?) just run around him and into the area. Neither were great on the ball today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmNick Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 I like Vyner, but his distribution seriously frustrates me. So many long balls upfield which seem (to me at least) to always end up either nowhere near our player, or at least us surrendering possession. I remember last year he came on a few times and had shots from range which never did anything and wasted good opportunities - don't know if it's a bit of a rush of blood to the head or what, but I'd like him to cut it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tin Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 Vyner. The penny needs to drop soon with him when it comes to keeping it simple with his distribution. While I want him to do well, I don’t think he has the same potential as Moore. Moore should also be kept in the middle of the three when Kalas is fully fit, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2015 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 Cannot stand it when Vyner smashes the ball up the pitch. For that reason alone it has to be him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeAman08 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 Depends on where Kalas is playing. If central then Moore for me because I don’t think he is as comfortable in the wide positions. Vyner needs to calm down on going long but we don’t know if he is being told to do that. Also Vyner covers for the other two very well and think is probably the fastest of the CBs and he has bailed us out a few times. He did today but then unfortunately fell asleep on the corner. Think better at the cross field switch too which opens up some good attacks If Kalas is playing right then Moore stays in easily enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveybadger Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 They’ve both had good games this season but I still fear there are mistakes in both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 8 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said: Depends on where Kalas is playing. If central then Moore for me because I don’t think he is as comfortable in the wide positions. Vyner needs to calm down on going long but we don’t know if he is being told to do that. Also Vyner covers for the other two very well and think is probably the fastest of the CBs and he has bailed us out a few times. He did today but then unfortunately fell asleep on the corner. Think better at the cross field switch too which opens up some good attacks If Kalas is playing right then Moore stays in easily enough. What Joe says Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 24 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said: Depends on where Kalas is playing. If central then Moore for me because I don’t think he is as comfortable in the wide positions. Very good point, caused me to rethink a little. Vyner does have a habit of switching off or relaxing and misplacing a pass or letting a runner go. He seems to do it a few times a game. TM has been solid and the only time I think he's struggled is when he played left side, he did look very uncomfortable. I think Vyner has covered the space left by Hunt getting forward well, I would probably play Moore there , at east to begin with. There will be chances to rotate, injuries etc, but to start I'd just give TM the nod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo88 Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 Pros and cons for both. A difficult decision - that’s why being a manager isn’t as easy as it sounds and successful managers get paid a lot of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malago Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 Vyner is a fine prospect who will go on to have a fine career. I would compare him to a young Louis Carey. However, like Louis did when he is young, he has a habit of switching off. He got caught sleeping for a throw in a Forest which almost cost a goal; and today he was at fault for the first goal. Undoubtedly, he will learn from these mistakes and has the advantage that like LC, he can play a bit. However, I think if I were Dean Holden at this moment in time it would be Zak I would take out for Tomas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 Just now, Malago said: Vyner is a fine prospect who will go on to have a fine career. I would compare him to a young Louis Carey. However, like Louis did when he is young, he has a habit of switching off. He got caught sleeping for a throw in a Forest which almost cost a goal; and today he was at fault for the first goal. Undoubtedly, he will learn from these mistakes and has the advantage that like LC, he can play a bit. However, I think if I were Dean Holden at this moment in time it would be Zak I would take out for Tomas. It was a real shame, because he’d defended the mis-hit shot into Woodrow’s path brilliantly that led to the corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted October 18, 2020 Report Share Posted October 18, 2020 Vyner spent more time trying to block his man than being aware where the ball was. Frustrates the hell out of me when they do that instead of attacking the ball. Two young players at error. Max allowed himself to get blocked and Vyner just watching his opposition. We miss Fam at defending set pieces...he actually attacks the ball. I actually believe he would have made a better CB than striker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickolas Posted October 18, 2020 Report Share Posted October 18, 2020 12 hours ago, Davefevs said: It was a real shame, because he’d defended the mis-hit shot into Woodrow’s path brilliantly that led to the corner. And then switched off 30 seconds later to lose his man from the corner for the goal. Young players do need to learn, but silly errors like this will cost us against the better teams too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NcnsBcfc Posted October 18, 2020 Report Share Posted October 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, nickolas said: And then switched off 30 seconds later to lose his man from the corner for the goal. Young players do need to learn, but silly errors like this will cost us against the better teams too. Really poor defending on that corner. Switched off for 1 second, and that's all it took. Hopefully he will learn, but the Championship is an unforgiving league; he may have got away with it in L1 or L2. I prefer Kalas in the centre. Moore rcb, and Mawson lcb. Allows Moore more scope to bring the ball out of the defence (one of his strengths i think). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeAman08 Posted October 18, 2020 Report Share Posted October 18, 2020 41 minutes ago, nickolas said: And then switched off 30 seconds later to lose his man from the corner for the goal. Young players do need to learn, but silly errors like this will cost us against the better teams too. Yes but they need to play to learn. It is what it is. Hopefully mistakes made in September and October mean more focused and mature in April/May. He won’t keep getting away with mistakes though but mistakes are how you get better. Being a club that wants to develop players to sell it is something we need to live with. 33 minutes ago, ncnsbcfc said: Really poor defending on that corner. Switched off for 1 second, and that's all it took. Hopefully he will learn, but the Championship is an unforgiving league; he may have got away with it in L1 or L2. I prefer Kalas in the centre. Moore rcb, and Mawson lcb. Allows Moore more scope to bring the ball out of the defence (one of his strengths i think). I don’t think DH wants the wide CBs carrying the ball out too much. Vyner is more than capable being a RB and midfielder for much of his pro career. Mawson the same but you don’t see it much. Moore not as comfortable a passer as Vyner or Mawson. Think Moore on the right people will have similar complaints to Vyner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 18, 2020 Report Share Posted October 18, 2020 With the beauty of hindsight, might DH have been better getting a CB on loan rather than Sessegnon....seeing that Hunt is on top form, and Vyner could cover him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexukhc Posted October 18, 2020 Report Share Posted October 18, 2020 13 hours ago, Malago said: Vyner is a fine prospect who will go on to have a fine career. I would compare him to a young Louis Carey. However, like Louis did when he is young, he has a habit of switching off. One for the stats heads, out of interest how many career appearances has Vyner made compared to Carey has at the age He is now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 18, 2020 Report Share Posted October 18, 2020 9 minutes ago, alexukhc said: One for the stats heads, out of interest how many career appearances has Vyner made compared to Carey has at the age He is now? Vyner 115 Carey - not as easy to be sure, but looks like around the 150 mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halestone Posted October 18, 2020 Report Share Posted October 18, 2020 What I like about having vyner in a defensive 3 is that he is able to play full back, coming further up the pitch leaving 2 CB's back. If we're going to have 3 at the back, its good to have a player with the ability to be more attacking. With Kalas and Mawson holding the line, it would give vyner the option to move up and support Hunt without crippling our defence. It reminds me of Shaw at utd last season when they also played 3 CB's, with shaw at RCB having the ability to bring the ball down the wing and support their RWB. Havent seen him do it much recently, but I wonder whether hes been told to stay back to support Moore & Mawson, it being a weaker defence without Kalas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviestevieneville Posted October 18, 2020 Report Share Posted October 18, 2020 People talking about his distribution, but for me it’s his level of concentration . We’ve seen him switch off numerous times and its going to cost us , like it did yesterday. I do question a long term promotion push If Zak and a lesser extent taylor Moore plays most games this season . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 18, 2020 Report Share Posted October 18, 2020 23 minutes ago, halestone said: What I like about having vyner in a defensive 3 is that he is able to play full back, coming further up the pitch leaving 2 CB's back. If we're going to have 3 at the back, its good to have a player with the ability to be more attacking. With Kalas and Mawson holding the line, it would give vyner the option to move up and support Hunt without crippling our defence. It reminds me of Shaw at utd last season when they also played 3 CB's, with shaw at RCB having the ability to bring the ball down the wing and support their RWB. Havent seen him do it much recently, but I wonder whether hes been told to stay back to support Moore & Mawson, it being a weaker defence without Kalas. Vyner is probably a smidge better than Moore in wide positions I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted October 18, 2020 Report Share Posted October 18, 2020 7 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said: People talking about his distribution, but for me it’s his level of concentration . We’ve seen him switch off numerous times and its going to cost us , like it did yesterday. I do question a long term promotion push If Zak and a lesser extent taylor Moore plays most games this season . You have to hope they`re both learning all the time and those occasions will become less frequent as they gain experience. It`s the classic dilemma - most of us want to see young players coming through and establishing themselves so we have to put up with the occasional clanger along the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviestevieneville Posted October 18, 2020 Report Share Posted October 18, 2020 2 hours ago, Lanterne Rouge said: You have to hope they`re both learning all the time and those occasions will become less frequent as they gain experience. It`s the classic dilemma - most of us want to see young players coming through and establishing themselves so we have to put up with the occasional clanger along the way. Agree totally and I hope your right . Fingers crossed it doesn’t cost us too many points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcofisher Posted October 18, 2020 Report Share Posted October 18, 2020 10 hours ago, Davefevs said: With the beauty of hindsight, might DH have been better getting a CB on loan rather than Sessegnon....seeing that Hunt is on top form, and Vyner could cover him? I genuinely forgot we had signed him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcofisher Posted October 18, 2020 Report Share Posted October 18, 2020 10 hours ago, JoeAman08 said: Yes but they need to play to learn. It is what it is. Hopefully mistakes made in September and October mean more focused and mature in April/May. He won’t keep getting away with mistakes though but mistakes are how you get better. Being a club that wants to develop players to sell it is something we need to live with. I don’t think DH wants the wide CBs carrying the ball out too much. Vyner is more than capable being a RB and midfielder for much of his pro career. Mawson the same but you don’t see it much. Moore not as comfortable a passer as Vyner or Mawson. Think Moore on the right people will have similar complaints to Vyner. I would say Moore is the best at bringing the ball out and best passer of all the back three. Mawson is also a good passer and a better defender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted October 18, 2020 Report Share Posted October 18, 2020 10 hours ago, Davefevs said: With the beauty of hindsight, might DH have been better getting a CB on loan rather than Sessegnon....seeing that Hunt is on top form, and Vyner could cover him? I also wondered if that was the reason why Sessegnon was on the bench yesterday, because he isn’t exactly versatile, yet Holden said he had O’Dowda on it instead of Dasilva simply because he is. For me Dasilva (LWB cover) should have been on the bench alongside O’Dowda, because with Kalas there too, Vyner could have switched to RWB if necessary & Sessegnon should have been the one who was left out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderMB Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 I don't think that one needs to be outright dropped. We're in a great situation in that we have competition, and this should be used to full advantage. I'd initially drop Vyner, but I'd want a mentality across the entire team that anyone can be dropped, and that mistakes can cost a player their place in the starting eleven. Hell, maybe Kalas doesn't need to go into the team right away? Maybe introduce him as a sub, and put him in at a later date to replace whoever didn't meet the bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prinny Posted October 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 12 hours ago, EnderMB said: I don't think that one needs to be outright dropped. We're in a great situation in that we have competition, and this should be used to full advantage. I'd initially drop Vyner, but I'd want a mentality across the entire team that anyone can be dropped, and that mistakes can cost a player their place in the starting eleven. Hell, maybe Kalas doesn't need to go into the team right away? Maybe introduce him as a sub, and put him in at a later date to replace whoever didn't meet the bar. People were very critical how LJ was after players made mistakes, not only they thought he was harsh but also inconsistent with certain players. Which I think is fair criticism, your policy should be consistent IMO. I didn't have a problem with how he treated Taylor Moore for example, I wanted him to go make his mistakes for someone else then come back and be better but I know a lot of posts were very upset over it. How many big errors should a player get before they are taken out the team? When there's a quality player behind them, is it one, two, three, or more? And getting the right mix between creating competition, playing who's on form and creating an atmosphere of fear where players know they get dropped for making mistakes is a hard balancing act we haven't had to see from Holden yet. How he treats the CBs after their weekend performance is a good indicator on him going forwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prinny Posted October 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2020 21 hours ago, Prinny said: People were very critical how LJ was after players made mistakes, not only they thought he was harsh but also inconsistent with certain players. Which I think is fair criticism, your policy should be consistent IMO. I didn't have a problem with how he treated Taylor Moore for example, I wanted him to go make his mistakes for someone else then come back and be better but I know a lot of posts were very upset over it. How many big errors should a player get before they are taken out the team? When there's a quality player behind them, is it one, two, three, or more? And getting the right mix between creating competition, playing who's on form and creating an atmosphere of fear where players know they get dropped for making mistakes is a hard balancing act we haven't had to see from Holden yet. How he treats the CBs after their weekend performance is a good indicator on him going forwards. Bumped for relevance. Thought Vyner was very good, saved a goal, good outlet and we were successful when he brought the ball out. Half chance from poor marking again this week at the far post. Moore another critical error, and this time it really hurt us. But we don't if Mawson's hurt have another fit senior centre back so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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