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Time for 4-4-2


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3 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Do you really think that will happen?

Completely change all our plans & formation because we have lost one game?

Two games have gone wrong, in fairness. But I just think he needs to be looking for a plan B. Creating nothing tonight, and he only swaps the two strikers!

Not knocking Dean, I've liked what I've seen until tonight.

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30 minutes ago, The Horse With No Name said:

Maybe now is the time to change tack, bearing in mind our centre backs are dropping like flies, and getting over run in midfield recently. Personally would like to see a midfield of Nagy, Brunt, Paterson and Weimann for Saturday.

So...

You want to see a 4-4-2 where the (assumed) wide midfielders aren’t wide midfielders, where the fbs still want to push on and where we don’t really have a DM to help cover?

I think the problem tonight was inherently midfield, and Colin saw that and pressed it. I’d stick 5-3-2 but tweak (JD in, look to play at least one more natural CM) but baby and bath water seems a bit much to me

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16 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

So...

You want to see a 4-4-2 where the (assumed) wide midfielders aren’t wide midfielders, where the fbs still want to push on and where we don’t really have a DM to help cover?

I think the problem tonight was inherently midfield, and Colin saw that and pressed it. I’d stick 5-3-2 but tweak (JD in, look to play at least one more natural CM) but baby and bath water seems a bit much to me

Tonight was the night where @1960maaancalled it on twitter.  He said that when Bakinson is struggling, the blend of MF3 with Pato and Weimann gets exposed....and neither of them are the type of player to sit in with him and help him out.

Systems are only as good as the players in it.  That blend of 3 has worked pretty well this season, tonight it didn’t.  There might be recognition from Dean that against this type of press, you either play a different blend of MF3 or you look for different ways of exploiting the emphasis put on those 3 by the opposition, either by:

- playing over it

- playing round it

For me, our best passages of play were when we got it to Vyner and to a lesser extent Mawson.  I think if Vyner had been a tad more courageous, Warnock would’ve had to change the plan.  There was one moment when Vyner went through late first half - where he fouled the defender....that should’ve been the cue to do more of it.

Easy in hindsight.

But throwing the system out the window would not be my next step.

We can freshen up for Saturday...we have options.  Swansea are a different type of team to Boro. 

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1 hour ago, The Horse With No Name said:

Maybe now is the time to change tack, bearing in mind our centre backs are dropping like flies, and getting over run in midfield recently. Personally would like to see a midfield of Nagy, Brunt, Paterson and Weimann for Saturday.

Issue is I don't think we have players with the quality to play wingers. Weimann is at best inconsistent on the right, and Pato on the left has never worked, that's before we consider general squad depth.

If we have to, I'd rather us sign a free agent, there are a few options.

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8 hours ago, AppyDAZE said:

Two games have gone wrong, in fairness. But I just think he needs to be looking for a plan B. Creating nothing tonight, and he only swaps the two strikers!

Not knocking Dean, I've liked what I've seen until tonight.

The Barnsley game didn’t go wrong.  We played well, established a lead and managed it well until the 95th minute.  It was nothing to do with the formation that we conceded a dodgy penalty.  Last night we were bullied by a Warnock side.  It was an off night, but we need to learn from it and move in.  I’m sure that we won’t see any kneejerk reaction from Dean.

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9 hours ago, The Horse With No Name said:

Maybe now is the time to change tack, bearing in mind our centre backs are dropping like flies, and getting over run in midfield recently. Personally would like to see a midfield of Nagy, Brunt, Paterson and Weimann for Saturday.

Sorry but this rubbish . We constantly got overran in midfield playing a 2 

everyone plays with 3 central midfielders in the modern game . It’s not the system . We’ve had one really poor performance , boro did a job and stopped us getting the ball into pato , wells and Martin . When we did , we were poor with it. 
your suggestion is exactly what we all moaned at Johnson about . Throwing the baby out with the bath water after a poor result . He believes in it , so stick to it . The more we train with this system every day , the players get used to it and better at it. 

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You don't change, you double down. Change players, but you certainly don't change formation and tactics. 

For the last few years, we've had a plan B, c, D, e,f.  Guess what we didn't seem to have: identity. 

They best teams are where everybody knows their role. They can have evolving jobs down to game management, but everyone knows. 

Last night was down to a lack of changes and tiredness. That's down to a management phylosophy of continuity from which they'll have to learn. 

 

Double down, build an identity. Then live or die by it. Now is not the moment to abandon it. 

 

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10 hours ago, The Horse With No Name said:

Maybe now is the time to change tack, bearing in mind our centre backs are dropping like flies, and getting over run in midfield recently. Personally would like to see a midfield of Nagy, Brunt, Paterson and Weimann for Saturday.

That's not a midfield, that's 2 midfielders and 2 number 10's

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When you look at last night most of the problems were with the players. Movement wasn't the best ( it was still better than under Johnson) , first touch and passing was poor, decision making was off and confidence in possession was poor. Against a team that press high and hard, first touch is vital, also when we broke line control seemed to let us down. Players over ran the ball, or were forced into hurried passes. It did look a lot like games under Johnson. 

When we have players fit, the system has options, take 2 first choice CMF's and 2 first choice CB's out of any team and it will be difficult, add 2 players out of favour. Last night the control from MF was poor and so we created nothing, Bakinson has carried the midfield so far and he had an off night with Pato & Weimann anonymous. I thought changing the 2 strikers was bizarre, the fact we hadn't created any chance was not down to the guys up front, not entirely at least. IMO COD could have been what we were missing last night, he goes past payers which could have opened up space, and maybe we wouldn't have looked so rushed.
But it's gone now, another game, different problems . The team needs freshening, I would play Brunt LCB and probably rest Pato for COD. Fam would come in along side Wells. I would maybe consider swapping a WB, but not both. My team would be something like.

                                                 Bentley

            Vyner/Moore.................Kalas...............Brunt

     Hunt  ................................ Bakinson ..........................DaSilva

                        Weimann. ..........................  ODowda

                                    Fam. ..................  Wells

The only other option I can see is Moore or Rowe LCB, neither fills me full of confidence there, Brunt into CMF and Bakinson moves into Pato or Weimann spot, or gets a rest.

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2 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

The Barnsley game didn’t go wrong.  We played well, established a lead and managed it well until the 95th minute.  It was nothing to do with the formation that we conceded a dodgy penalty.  Last night we were bullied by a Warnock side.  It was an off night, but we need to learn from it and move in.  I’m sure that we won’t see any kneejerk reaction from Dean.

This is the thing with Colin. Love or loathe his style of play you cannot question his knowledge of the game. He came up with the perfect plan to shut us out and he didn't really have to resort to some of the shithousery that we have seen from many of his sides. He came up with the plan to win the midfield area, the only issue was whether his players would carry it out and they did, to the letter, in fairness to them.

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10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Tonight was the night where @1960maaancalled it on twitter.  He said that when Bakinson is struggling, the blend of MF3 with Pato and Weimann gets exposed....and neither of them are the type of player to sit in with him and help him out.

Systems are only as good as the players in it.  That blend of 3 has worked pretty well this season, tonight it didn’t.  There might be recognition from Dean that against this type of press, you either play a different blend of MF3 or you look for different ways of exploiting the emphasis put on those 3 by the opposition, either by:

- playing over it

- playing round it

For me, our best passages of play were when we got it to Vyner and to a lesser extent Mawson.  I think if Vyner had been a tad more courageous, Warnock would’ve had to change the plan.  There was one moment when Vyner went through late first half - where he fouled the defender....that should’ve been the cue to do more of it.

Easy in hindsight.

But throwing the system out the window would not be my next step.

We can freshen up for Saturday...we have options.  Swansea are a different type of team to Boro. 

Spot on. Really, since Forest, teams have pressed TB and the system has looked like it needs adjusting. 

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1 hour ago, Roger Red Hat said:

Spot on. Really, since Forest, teams have pressed TB and the system has looked like it needs adjusting. 

Agreed. Bakinson is not yet at the level where he can deal with it on his own (if and when he gets there he won't be hanging around Ashton Gate for much longer unless we get to the Premiership ourselves either) and last night he needed a bit of help in there. Nagy, Massengo or Brunt would all have been options last night with Walsh and Williams to come. Paterson and Weimann have different qualities but helping out an inexperienced CDM who is being pressed hard by at least one and sometimes two players is not one of them. There will be some games where we might have to ditch a bit of flair for more solidity.........in hindsight we've just lost one of them.

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4 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

When you look at last night most of the problems were with the players. Movement wasn't the best ( it was still better than under Johnson) , first touch and passing was poor, decision making was off and confidence in possession was poor. Against a team that press high and hard, first touch is vital, also when we broke line control seemed to let us down. Players over ran the ball, or were forced into hurried passes. It did look a lot like games under Johnson. 

When we have players fit, the system has options, take 2 first choice CMF's and 2 first choice CB's out of any team and it will be difficult, add 2 players out of favour. Last night the control from MF was poor and so we created nothing, Bakinson has carried the midfield so far and he had an off night with Pato & Weimann anonymous. I thought changing the 2 strikers was bizarre, the fact we hadn't created any chance was not down to the guys up front, not entirely at least. IMO COD could have been what we were missing last night, he goes past payers which could have opened up space, and maybe we wouldn't have looked so rushed.
But it's gone now, another game, different problems . The team needs freshening, I would play Brunt LCB and probably rest Pato for COD. Fam would come in along side Wells. I would maybe consider swapping a WB, but not both. My team would be something like.

                                                 Bentley

            Vyner/Moore.................Kalas...............Brunt

     Hunt  ................................ Bakinson ..........................DaSilva

                        Weimann. ..........................  ODowda

                                    Fam. ..................  Wells

The only other option I can see is Moore or Rowe LCB, neither fills me full of confidence there, Brunt into CMF and Bakinson moves into Pato or Weimann spot, or gets a rest.

Re the subs, my explanation is that the midfield wasn’t working, so Dean thought, let’s just go long and bypass them....and get them running onto the loose ball / nod downs. In some respects it worked, Bakinson fouled off a Diedhiou flick, Diedhiou flicking another across the box, Rowe getting in at the back post and almost setting up Fam.  Not pretty but almost effective.  It’s what other direct teams have done to us in the past.

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5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Re the subs, my explanation is that the midfield wasn’t working, so Dean thought, let’s just go long and bypass them....and get them running onto the loose ball / nod downs. In some respects it worked, Bakinson fouled off a Diedhiou flick, Diedhiou flicking another across the box, Rowe getting in at the back post and almost setting up Fam.  Not pretty but almost effective.  It’s what other direct teams have done to us in the past.

You could be right, but in that case I'd ask why take both strikers off? OK you want Fam's prescience in and around the box. So you could have had Fam/Wells , Wells being the best finisher at the club. Fam/Martin , two chance of the first ball. Or go 3 strikers. It's the straight swap that makes no sense to me. 

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5 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

My team would be something like.

                                                 Bentley

            Vyner/Moore.................Kalas...............Brunt

     Hunt  ................................ Bakinson ..........................DaSilva

                        Weimann. ..........................  ODowda

                                    Fam. ..................  Wells

The only other option I can see is Moore or Rowe LCB, neither fills me full of confidence there, Brunt into CMF and Bakinson moves into Pato or Weimann spot, or gets a rest.

I think we'd get dicked if we lineup like that against Swansea, although I agree with the rest of your post. 

I'd go 3-5-2: Bentley; Vyner, Moore, Kalas; Hunt, Massengo, Bakinson, Brunt, Dasilva; Martin, Wells. That assumes Williams and Walsh are both out of contention again. The problem with my XI is we lack a No.10, but we would be more solid in the middle of the park. 

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16 minutes ago, tin said:

I think we'd get dicked if we lineup like that against Swansea, although I agree with the rest of your post. 

I'd go 3-5-2: Bentley; Vyner, Moore, Kalas; Hunt, Massengo, Bakinson, Brunt, Dasilva; Martin, Wells. That assumes Williams and Walsh are both out of contention again. The problem with my XI is we lack a No.10, but we would be more solid in the middle of the park. 

 

What I've been saying from the start of the season, the MF isn't strong enough, although I did hold my hands up and say Pato/Weimann was working after the 4th win.
My team was based on what DH has done so far and that HNM & Nagy are out of favour. I think we need a natural left foot in the back 3 and I'd put Brunt in there. If it turns out Williams or Walsh can play, then all things change again, not holding my breath on that. As it stands it looks like we could have an LJ situation, players disappear only to come straight into the starting line up, then disappear again. 

Big decisions for Holden.

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7 hours ago, The turtle said:

You don't change, you double down. Change players, but you certainly don't change formation and tactics. 

For the last few years, we've had a plan B, c, D, e,f.  Guess what we didn't seem to have: identity. 

They best teams are where everybody knows their role. They can have evolving jobs down to game management, but everyone knows. 

Last night was down to a lack of changes and tiredness. That's down to a management phylosophy of continuity from which they'll have to learn. 

 

Double down, build an identity. Then live or die by it. Now is not the moment to abandon it. 

 

Good post, I'd only add that you also try and identify where you ight be able to improve within the system. Last night we saw some joy when Vyner pushed forward into midfield - so maybe work on that for the next time we play Boro (or any other side with a similar game). 

Bear in mind as well that they're sole shot on target came from our own defensive howler - a howler that could have happened in a 442, WM, 424, 433 or any other formation. 

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18 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Tonight was the night where @1960maaancalled it on twitter.  He said that when Bakinson is struggling, the blend of MF3 with Pato and Weimann gets exposed....and neither of them are the type of player to sit in with him and help him out.

Systems are only as good as the players in it.  That blend of 3 has worked pretty well this season, tonight it didn’t.  There might be recognition from Dean that against this type of press, you either play a different blend of MF3 or you look for different ways of exploiting the emphasis put on those 3 by the opposition, either by:

- playing over it

- playing round it

For me, our best passages of play were when we got it to Vyner and to a lesser extent Mawson.  I think if Vyner had been a tad more courageous, Warnock would’ve had to change the plan.  There was one moment when Vyner went through late first half - where he fouled the defender....that should’ve been the cue to do more of it.

Easy in hindsight.

But throwing the system out the window would not be my next step.

We can freshen up for Saturday...we have options.  Swansea are a different type of team to Boro. 

Spot on about Vyner, Dave and he only fouled their defender because of a poor return pass. I don't know if Chris Wilder has continued this, but didn't his left and right sided centre backs in a 3-5-2 provide the Blades width with forward runs? It's certainly a way of springing a tight back line when you have a spare defender.

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2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Good post, I'd only add that you also try and identify where you ight be able to improve within the system. Last night we saw some joy when Vyner pushed forward into midfield - so maybe work on that for the next time we play Boro (or any other side with a similar game). 

Bear in mind as well that they're sole shot on target came from our own defensive howler - a howler that could have happened in a 442, WM, 424, 433 or any other formation. 

My preview suggested the side CBs might be able to advance the ball, but my thoughts were that it would be for the benefit of Pato and Weimann dragging Morsy and Howson out of the centre, whereas in fact it didn’t....and the space was still there for Zak to move into.

It was a good learning experience for staff and players.

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9 hours ago, wendyredredrobin said:

Whatever formation you use, you can still coach players to pass the ball forwards.  You don't need a manager probably on a million quid a year to tell you that if you don't have any shots on target you won't score any goals.

Own goal :fear:

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3 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

 

What I've been saying from the start of the season, the MF isn't strong enough, although I did hold my hands up and say Pato/Weimann was working after the 4th win.
My team was based on what DH has done so far and that HNM & Nagy are out of favour. I think we need a natural left foot in the back 3 and I'd put Brunt in there. If it turns out Williams or Walsh can play, then all things change again, not holding my breath on that. As it stands it looks like we could have an LJ situation, players disappear only to come straight into the starting line up, then disappear again. 

Big decisions for Holden.

I agree, I would have played O'Dowda last night alongside Weimann box to box.

Brunt at centre back is interesting. Not many have said this, but like you I have wondered if Brunt left sided centre back is something Holden considered an option when signing him.

He's played left back I think in the Pulis WBA side in the Prem. It seems a full back has to be a good defender more than anything else to get into a Pulis team.

Not sure left back in a Pulis defensive narrow back 4 would be massively different to left centre back in an adventurous back 3 for us.

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37 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

My preview suggested the side CBs might be able to advance the ball, but my thoughts were that it would be for the benefit of Pato and Weimann dragging Morsy and Howson out of the centre, whereas in fact it didn’t....and the space was still there for Zak to move into.

It was a good learning experience for staff and players.

Maybe you can tell me but was Bakinson playing deeper last night? Through the game it felt as though our midfield was stretched vertically - ie there was too much space between our two number 8s and Bakinson. Anything in that or am I seeing things?

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9 hours ago, wendyredredrobin said:

Whatever formation you use, you can still coach players to pass the ball forwards.  You don't need a manager probably on a million quid a year to tell you that if you don't have any shots on target you won't score any goals.

 

18 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Own goal :fear:

Our 3-3 draw with Sunderland , 3-0 at half time. I don't think they registered one shot on target, 2 OG's

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5 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Maybe you can tell me but was Bakinson playing deeper last night? Through the game it felt as though our midfield was stretched vertically - ie there was too much space between our two number 8s and Bakinson. Anything in that or am I seeing things?

I looked at the heatmaps from last night and the Forest games, not much in it. 

Boro game left.

305702314_Screenshot2020-10-21at19_02_06.png.48457f0a373360fec09dee89255008f7.png665883880_Screenshot2020-10-21at19_01_52.png.bf3eb7e48bda3432eeaf54d8e038b491.png

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