Lets stop this playing out from the back

[Never to the dark side]

We have seen how costly this practice this can be,

it seems all teams also have the idea of chasing  the ball down by the forwards when the opposition goal keeper has the ball at their feet.

Just kick the ball out of the penalty area,then at least your  half way down the pitch.

Then you have a 50/50 chance of getting hold of the ball

[Silvio Dante]

Yes. Let’s stop this “passing” to which some of us are beholden. Let’s welt the ball up the pitch at every opportunity and go for percentages. Let’s sign Devon White. Let’s grow dodgy porn star taches.

A big kick is only ever a percentage ball, and often even if you win ball one, you don’t win ball two. Playing from the back well is the best way of playing, and yes - we do need to get better - but to suggest an “ave it” strategy actually loses us more ball

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, Never to the dark side said:

We have seen how costly this practice this can be,

it seems all teams also have the idea of chasing  the ball down by the forwards when the opposition goal keeper has the ball at their feet.

Just kick the ball out of the penalty area,then at least your  half way down the pitch.

Then you have a 50/50 chance of getting hold of the ball

One mistake and let’s throw the whole thing out of the window. Blimey

[Dastardly and Muttley]

Over a season, there will always be two or three mistakes. Moore should have just lumped it, or Bentley shouldn’t have passed it to him. 
However, passing out from the back generally gives a much higher chance of possession and allows us to keep our shape much more. 
It’s a much better way of starting play, even if it loses a goal or two over the course of 46 games.

[Robbored]

1 hour ago, Never to the dark side said:

We have seen how costly this practice this can be,

it seems all teams also have the idea of chasing  the ball down by the forwards when the opposition goal keeper has the ball at their feet.

Just kick the ball out of the penalty area,then at least your  half way down the pitch.

Then you have a 50/50 chance of getting hold of the ball

So you think we should adopt a more ‘direct’ approach by hoofing the ball up the pitch?...........I’d have thought we’d seen enough of that over the years.

[CyderInACan]

Bring back diagonal goal kicks to go straight out of play on the half way line. 

Man I miss those days. 

[steveybadger]

If we’d smashed the ball up field on Tuesday there was a collection on Warnock centre halves ready to say thanks very much

[Floatn Over]

Perfected and executed correctly, playing out from the back is the best option, exchanging full possession for 50/50 at best makes no sense to me.  We got caught by Boro (both TM and DB at fault) but learn lesson to rule out such errors.

[GrahamC]

Like everything, it is all about a balance.

Just like the calls to switch to 4-4-2 we aren’t going to suddenly abandon all of our pre season planning based on one defeat, likewise we aren’t going to become a Warnock or Pulis clone simply because Moore made a mistake.

There are occasions to mix it up though, our decent penalty shout midweek came from a long ball that Fam won, but if this becomes your main tactic it is very easy to defend against.

Obvious to say but there are times to play out & times to go percentage, Moore has hopefully learned that this was the latter.

[Engvall’s Splinter]

I would like for us to play the right way in the right scenario, with variety. If the short ball is on, then play it. If it’s not, play percentages. First thought should be to play absolutely but don’t force it. I don’t understand the total fascination with feeling that you have to always play out from the back - when sometimes you put yourself under immediate and unnecessary pressure. 

[Trueredsupporter]

Its not 50/50. @cowshed once did a post that explained how chucking it long can mean thousands of attacks to defend over a season and how teams are structured to do that.

[soultrader]

Isn't hindsight amazing

[Rocking Red Cyril]

I feel both DB and TM have both been key players to our good start. 

Yes they are both responsible for the goal and they should learn and improve this. 

I have no doubt this out from the back is worked on in training 

But mistakes happen, that's football, life, the universe. 

It's one goal, a loss rather than a draw in one game in a long season 

Get over it 

 

[Super]

1 hour ago, Dastardly and Muttley said:

Over a season, there will always be two or three mistakes. Moore should have just lumped it, or Bentley shouldn’t have passed it to him. 
However, passing out from the back generally gives a much higher chance of possession and allows us to keep our shape much more. 
It’s a much better way of starting play, even if it loses a goal or two over the course of 46 games.

Over a season there will be loads more than that. Not saying ditch it completely though.

[RedRock]

In defence of Taylor Moore, after such a calamitous and embarrassing error, he did continue to play football and not hide, which many other players would have done.

He seems to have cut out his ‘charging bull’ impression ( the highly dangerous habit of running up the pitch at full speed with the ball and then losing it at the half way line). Let’s hope he also learns from this mistake. 

 

He has potential and is worth sticking with at present (we ain’t got anyone else anyhow!).

[spudski]

2 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

Yes. Let’s stop this “passing” to which some of us are beholden. Let’s welt the ball up the pitch at every opportunity and go for percentages. Let’s sign Devon White. Let’s grow dodgy porn star taches.

A big kick is only ever a percentage ball, and often even if you win ball one, you don’t win ball two. Playing from the back well is the best way of playing, and yes - we do need to get better - but to suggest an “ave it” strategy actually loses us more ball

I totally agree.

One thing that has crossed my mind though, is how to manipulate to our advantage the rules of the game and how they are refereed.

LJ used to bang on about ' box entry's'...even though we had very few of them.

I'd be taking full advantage of how handballs are given and how hard it is to defend in the box right now.

Get the ball and players commited to being in the box not on the edge of it.

You've only got to look at how Barnsley got that ' advantage with the Odowda challenge, and how Rowe had to pull out of a challenge against Boro for fear of 'clipping' and giving away a penalty.

Defending in the box now is one of the hardest things to do without commuting a foul in the eyes of the laws.

[Clutton Caveman]

Playing out from the back can be very good if your players are good enough to do it.

Many teams such as Leeds base their whole attacking strategy on nicking the ball from players in their own half who have been brainwashed into the keep possession at all costs policy.

We often play the ball out from the back with 6 or 7 mostly sideways or backward passes and then we get closed down and hit it long.

We don't have to hoof it to the edge of their box, instead you can hit a fast ball to the feet of a player in midfield. Problem is the player must be good enough to accept a pass under pressure.

When a team is clearly trying to press high as Middleborough did, it is brainless to keep playing into their hands

One team with direct football won the Prem by a mile last year whilst another in light blue who need to hit 40 passes to get to the box failed.

I think ticky takka football was a phase. Teams have learned to defeat it.

I think you have to play what is in front of you and mix it up. If a team has 3 players closing down your back 3 there should be space behind them. When they press use this space, when they drop off you play out to draw them forward.

Personally I would much rather watch a team like Liverpool who try to score each time they get the ball than a team like Man City who play 70% of their passes sideways or backwards seeking the holy grail of possession.

[redysteadygo]

20 minutes ago, Clutton Caveman said:

think you have to play what is in front of you and mix it up. If a team has 3 players closing down your back 3 there should be space behind them. When they press use this space, when they drop off you play out to draw them forward.

Entirely agree CC.

If a pass or rolled ball out to a defender breaks the line and gives an advantage you have take advantage quickly and capitalise on the free space behind. If the initial ball from GK to defender does not bypass the press there needs to be plenty of movement in front to create the next forward pass to retain possession and progress. These scenarios should be practised drills of inter passing with players knowing where to position themselves to receive the ball or to draw pressing opposition players.

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, Never to the dark side said:

We have seen how costly this practice this can be,

it seems all teams also have the idea of chasing  the ball down by the forwards when the opposition goal keeper has the ball at their feet.

Just kick the ball out of the penalty area,then at least your  half way down the pitch.

Then you have a 50/50 chance of getting hold of the ball

Its one mistake.  Why haven’t you been moaning about our method in the previous 5 unbeaten games?

But what if Bentley had passed the ball through Parson St station first?

[E.G.Red]

It’s not the playing out from the back, but passing back that can be costly. I don’t understand if when going forward and you find your way blocked why you would then go backwards. Surely kicking it out (as they do in rugby) would be better because it gives you a chance to regroup.

[Numero Uno]

37 minutes ago, Clutton Caveman said:

Playing out from the back can be very good if your players are good enough to do it.

Many teams such as Leeds base their whole attacking strategy on nicking the ball from players in their own half who have been brainwashed into the keep possession at all costs policy.

We often play the ball out from the back with 6 or 7 mostly sideways or backward passes and then we get closed down and hit it long.

We don't have to hoof it to the edge of their box, instead you can hit a fast ball to the feet of a player in midfield. Problem is the player must be good enough to accept a pass under pressure.

When a team is clearly trying to press high as Middleborough did, it is brainless to keep playing into their hands

One team with direct football won the Prem by a mile last year whilst another in light blue who need to hit 40 passes to get to the box failed.

I think ticky takka football was a phase. Teams have learned to defeat it.

I think you have to play what is in front of you and mix it up. If a team has 3 players closing down your back 3 there should be space behind them. When they press use this space, when they drop off you play out to draw them forward.

Personally I would much rather watch a team like Liverpool who try to score each time they get the ball than a team like Man City who play 70% of their passes sideways or backwards seeking the holy grail of possession.

Correct. There isn't ONE WAY to play football. If you do that you get sussed out as Man City found out to an extent last season (yes they finished second but that isn't good enough for them). As you say there is more than one way to play "passing" football in terms of the areas where you are looking to pass the ball. I also think that there is a time and a place for going a bit longer/more direct but if you base your whole game plan on 50:50 then we may as well phone John Beck and see if he wants to come and manage us!!

As a team we do like to start play in our own half in contrast to a Warnock team that almost exclusively plays in the opposition half. However when a wily old fox like Warnock comes up with a plan to press us at the right times and when his players execute it to perfection we really need to have the ability to carry out Plan B.

[Numero Uno]

18 minutes ago, redysteadygo said:

Entirely agree CC.

If a pass or rolled ball out to a defender breaks the line and gives an advantage you have take advantage quickly and capitalise on the free space behind. If the initial ball from GK to defender does not bypass the press there needs to be plenty of movement in front to create the next forward pass to retain possession and progress. These scenarios should be practised drills of inter passing with players knowing where to position themselves to receive the ball or to draw pressing opposition players.

I'm sure those drills and scenario's are worked on in training. In fact for most players they have been doing them in various guises since age 9 in whatever Academy they were at. As a team we were just brain dead on Tuesday which does happen occasionally. We could get mullered 5-0 by somebody this season and still not be as bad as we were on Tuesday!! It happens and now we need to see a positive reaction.

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

As a team we do like to start play in our own half in contrast to a Warnock team that almost exclusively plays in the opposition half. However when a wily old fox like Warnock comes up with a plan to press us at the right times and when his players execute it to perfection we really need to have the ability to carry out Plan B.

[Lrrr]

Hahahahahhahhaaha

but seriously you just need to recognise when the opposition are setting up high to jump on passes and you can then ping the ball over that first line to wide players.

[EnderMB]

38 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Correct. There isn't ONE WAY to play football. If you do that you get sussed out as Man City found out to an extent last season (yes they finished second but that isn't good enough for them). As you say there is more than one way to play "passing" football in terms of the areas where you are looking to pass the ball. I also think that there is a time and a place for going a bit longer/more direct but if you base your whole game plan on 50:50 then we may as well phone John Beck and see if he wants to come and manage us!!

As a team we do like to start play in our own half in contrast to a Warnock team that almost exclusively plays in the opposition half. However when a wily old fox like Warnock comes up with a plan to press us at the right times and when his players execute it to perfection we really need to have the ability to carry out Plan B.

You've hit the nail on the head, and this has been a common issue under LJ. In fact, I'd say being a one-dimensional team has often transcended our head coaches, as it's been a problem for many years.

I truly believe that if Holden wants to get somewhere with this side, he needs to ensure that we have multiple options that the players can switch to almost instantly, based on feeling out the opposition. That will come with time, so I don't expect Holden to have the answer right away, but I really hope that Holden demonstrates at least some willingness to do this.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

You've hit the nail on the head, and this has been a common issue under LJ. In fact, I'd say being a one-dimensional team has often transcended our head coaches, as it's been a problem for many years.

I truly believe that if Holden wants to get somewhere with this side, he needs to ensure that we have multiple options that the players can switch to almost instantly, based on feeling out the opposition. That will come with time, so I don't expect Holden to have the answer right away, but I really hope that Holden demonstrates at least some willingness to do this.

I think he has already to some extent, but it’s requiring HIM to make those tweaks, e.g. at Half-time, rather than the players self-police on the pitch.

The good thing for me is that Dean recognises that they are a long way away from how he wants them to play.  Really interested in today’s presser, but more so tomorrow’s performance.  It’s a tough League.  Even the clubs which we expect to be flying, with experienced managers don’t always get their own way.  I’m not saying we cut Dean some slack, but I think we so very high or so very low after games.  There is a bit of inbetween.

[Nogbad the Bad]

Absolutely no upside to possession football if it doesn't lead to creating chances and shots on goal from dangerous positions.

It's soul destroying to watch and carrying it out it to little effect must be equally tedious and frustrating for the players.

Goalmouth action and excitement please Mr. Holden - and yes, that may include Bentley ushering the team forward and booting the ball sky high deep into the opposition half to at least force opposition defenders to earn their corn under physical pressure and threat from out attackers.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Absolutely no upside to possession football if it doesn't lead to creating chances and shots on goal from dangerous positions.

It's soul destroying to watch and carrying it out it to little effect must be equally tedious and frustrating for the players.

Goalmouth action and excitement please Mr. Holden - and yes, that may include Bentley ushering the team forward and booting the ball sky high deep into the opposition half to at least force opposition defenders to earn their corn under physical pressure and threat from out attackers.

Which is generally what he’s served up in his 11 league matches in charge so far.

[BigTone]

11 hours ago, Never to the dark side said:

We have seen how costly this practice this can be,

it seems all teams also have the idea of chasing  the ball down by the forwards when the opposition goal keeper has the ball at their feet.

Just kick the ball out of the penalty area,then at least your  half way down the pitch.

Then you have a 50/50 chance of getting hold of the ball

We could try playing back from the front.

[LondonBristolian]

I completely disagree. I'd like us to do more passing out from the back.

If you look at the goal on Tuesday, the issue was not passing from the back but Moore trying to either take an extra touch or beat a striker (not sure which) from a perilous position.

If he'd stroked the ball left to Kalas, there would not have been an issue.