"Bristol City's Dean Holden: 'I know there was a clamour for a bigger name'"

[SinéadB]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/oct/23/bristol-city-dean-holden-championship-lake-fans-pub

Bristol City's Dean Holden: 'I know there was a clamour for a bigger name'
The manager, whose team are second in the Championship, is using a freezing lake and the pub in his hunt for success

With the Championship activating full throttle, an unforgiving schedule poses endless challenges from logistics to fatigue and fitness. For Bristol City, Saturday’s match at home to Swansea represents the third of seven games across a gruelling 20-day period but in Clevedon Marine Lake, a tidal pool filled with seawater overlooking the Bristol Channel, head coach Dean Holden has found a serene spot to switch off and meditate.

“I’ve been going since I got the job,” he says. “I can’t ever have my phone away from me now, especially during the transfer window, because you never know what’s coming. It’s a great view, it’s freezing cold and it allows me to get 20 minutes away from the world. Just a pair of kecks – a pair of shorts – and in I go.”

Holden has immersed himself in the role at Bristol City with a similar gusto since succeeding Lee Johnson, whom he assisted for four years, in August. Holden’s first foray into coaching came at the end of his playing career under Dean Smith at Walsall and numerous roles at Oldham, including a spell as manager, followed before he took caretaker charge at Bristol City last season following Johnson’s departure. Those experiences shaped his journey but he recognises the opportunity to guide the club into the Premier League is a different, and exciting, proposition.

“There are a lot of things getting the club ready for promotion, but we have to get it right on the pitch. Putting money in as Steve [Lansdown, the owner] has done is incredible – the legacy he is going to leave behind is incredible: the new training ground, the academy, Bristol Sport with Bristol Bears; everything is just: ‘Wow’ – but we’ve got to make sure we’re good enough out there,” he says, glancing towards the grass. “I’m hoping when we move into the new facility in the spring, we’re in a really good place towards the end of the season. It’s all right getting the opportunity … I’ve got to make sure I take this.”

Holden acknowledges he was not the name on many supporters’ lips when the vacancy arose but four wins from his first six league matches have soothed any dissenting voices. “I was aware there was a clamour for a bigger name, maybe a more successful [manager], rather than somebody who was already in the building. But I never really got caught up in the noise. I had it a lot through my playing career; I was never the marquee star signing, so I’m comfortable with that. They [fans] care enough to voice whatever they want to voice about the football club because it’s a massive part of their life.”

The 41-year-old counts Smith and Sam Allardyce, his manager at Bolton, as mentors and is constantly trying to evolve, aided by his assistants Paul Simpson and Keith Downing, formerly in charge of England’s Under-20s and Under-19s respectively. Three years ago Holden visited Jorge Sampaoli at Sevilla and, more recently, enjoyed picking the brains of Eddie Jones and Paul Nicholls at a workshop Q&A at the horse racing trainer’s yard in Ditcheat.

“I watched the Bobby Robson [More Than a Manager] documentary and right at the end I remember his son saying he didn’t really know what the likes of the ‘old Ronaldo’ were like because they didn’t have much of a family life. So I wanted to ask: ‘Can you be as good as you possibly can in your job and still have a really happy home life, be a good husband and father to your kids?’ They both said: ‘No, you have to pick one or the other.’ After Eddie came up to me and said: ‘Actually, yes, you can but you have to make sure you get the balance right.’ I went to see Paul a couple of weeks ago, separately, and we had a really good chat about that. I didn’t know at the time he had three divorces, so that was a ridiculous question. I should have prepared better.”

He is a self-deprecating character but one of his most endearing traits is his candid nature. “I just think be open, be honest, be straight – there’s no point bullshitting people, because there’s enough of that,” he says, and there was no beating about the bush on Tuesday, when his team slipped to a first league defeat against Middlesbrough which leaves them second in the table, two points above Swansea. Last month, on a rare Saturday off, Holden went to The Three Lions, a pub around the corner from Ashton Gate, to meet fans – and have his first taste of a West Country staple: Thatcher’s Gold cider.

“Sean, who runs the boozer, put a little flag up of me when I was getting a bit of stick so I thought I would go and say thanks for that, basically. It was an off-the-cuff thing because me, my old man and my brother wanted to go for a pint and we were not playing until the Sunday. I like getting to know people and enjoying what I do. I don’t want it [management] to be a big ordeal and at the end of it, whenever it finishes, years down the line – hopefully, it will be an Alex Ferguson or [Arsène] Wenger period in football – at whatever club, I want to look back and think I’ve really enjoyed that and made the most of it.”

[Guest]

A good insight to the man.

I'd say that he's in a rather unique situation at the moment: No manager, that I'm aware of, has ever had the luxury of not having fans on their back while developing a team. He is a rather fortunate fella because in my mind, this takes quite a bit of pressure off. I'd say that this allows him to experiment a little to find his team and I hope that he uses this time wisely.

It would be good if they could do another piece in about a years time to see how, and if, his views have changed.

[Merrick's Marvels]

Keep yer trap shut, Deano.... the water in that marina is filthy. 

Just get down to Sugar Loaf Bay for a bit of proper wild swimming - needs to be at high tide, mind, or the current will have ya.  

[Davefevs]

Is Ben Fisher a City fan or Bristolian or both?

[SinéadB]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Is Ben Fisher a City fan or Bristolian or both?

He's a City fan - not sure where he's from but he is also the main reporter for the EFL on the guardian.

[LondonBristolian]

16 minutes ago, bcfcfinker said:

A good insight to the man.

I'd say that he's in a rather unique situation at the moment: No manager, that I'm aware of, has ever had the luxury of not having fans on their back while developing a team. He is a rather fortunate fella because in my mind, this takes quite a bit of pressure off. I'd say that this allows him to experiment a little to find his team and I hope that he uses this time wisely.

It would be good if they could do another piece in about a years time to see how, and if, his views have changed.

I agree but, at the same time, I think Holden is doing a really good job of making himself likable to the fans.

Obviously he still needs to get results, and his lack of experience will be weaponised if he loses games, but the fact that he's as direct and open as he is has certainly made me warm to him and I'm sure I'm not alone on that. Even with Tuesday, it was an awful performances but the fact he made very clear he shared that view rather than pretended he could see positives will help hold off some of that criticism. 

[Robbored]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Is Ben Fisher a City fan or Bristolian or both?

If it’s the same Ben Fisher on FB. He lives in Posset and supports both Arsenal and Bristol City........

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, LondonBristolian said:

I agree but, at the same time, I think Holden is doing a really good job of making himself likable to the fans.

Obviously he still needs to get results, and his lack of experience will be weaponised if he loses games, but the fact that he's as direct and open as he is has certainly made me warm to him and I'm sure I'm not alone on that. Even with Tuesday, it was an awful performances but the fact he made very clear he shared that view rather than pretended he could see positives will help hold off some of that criticism. 

That’s a really simple thing but something he does well.  I liked his face too, he looking bloody angry, so his body language matched up.  As you say fans aren’t stupid.

[GrahamC]

22 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Keep yer trap shut, Deano.... the water in that marina is filthy. 

Just get down to Sugar Loaf Bay for a bit of proper wild swimming - needs to be at high tide, mind, or the current will have ya.  

He’s a Manc, so I’m amazed he even knew where it was..

First Thatcher’s recently, as well..

[Clevedon Red]

Time to stalk him down the lake then.

[LoyalRed]

Our loss is Forest's gain

[Prinny]

Read the article and swap the names. I don't think people would like it.

Lee Johnson goes down the pub for a photo opportunity (and breaks social distancing regulation AGAIN potentially infecting all the squad)

Lee Johnson brings up famous names/mentors in the game.

Lee Johnson talks about friends in other sports.

Lee Johnson tells you he's always on the phone and on the job.

Lee Johnson tells you how great Steve Lansdown is.

I'm the same though. It's nice to know more about him, but a negative start, and a couple years of not achieving promotion, and I don't think this goes down well.

[Kid in the Riot]

Hopefully the conspiracy theories that LJ was paying the Guardian to interview him for publicity etc will stop now! 

[Lrrr]

Just now, Kid in the Riot said:

Hopefully the conspiracy theories that LJ was paying the Guardian to interview him for publicity etc will stop now! 

LJ’s paying the guardian to interview Dean to try and get the conspiracy theory to stop for when he gets his next job 

[Numero Uno]

17 minutes ago, Prinny said:

Read the article and swap the names. I don't think people would like it.

Lee Johnson goes down the pub for a photo opportunity (and breaks social distancing regulation AGAIN potentially infecting all the squad)

Lee Johnson brings up famous names/mentors in the game.

Lee Johnson talks about friends in other sports.

Lee Johnson tells you he's always on the phone and on the job.

Lee Johnson tells you how great Steve Lansdown is.

I'm the same though. It's nice to know more about him, but a negative start, and a couple years of not achieving promotion, and I don't think this goes down well.

Interestingly, though, Colin had a little sideswipe at LJ the other night. Cannot remember the exact wording but was implying that our players were playing with a freedom that was not previously there.

[Davefevs]

39 minutes ago, Prinny said:

Read the article and swap the names. I don't think people would like it.

Lee Johnson goes down the pub for a photo opportunity (and breaks social distancing regulation AGAIN potentially infecting all the squad)

Lee Johnson brings up famous names/mentors in the game.

Lee Johnson talks about friends in other sports.

Lee Johnson tells you he's always on the phone and on the job.

Lee Johnson tells you how great Steve Lansdown is.

I'm the same though. It's nice to know more about him, but a negative start, and a couple years of not achieving promotion, and I don't think this goes down well.

The big difference imho is that Dean Holden isn’t using these examples to make himself look better.  Holden is self-deprecating, LJ was self-promoting.  It’s bought Dean some leeway.  Lee made it about him and therefore if you don’t succeed there are lots of people waiting to have a go.

[Merrick's Marvels]

59 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

He’s a Manc, so I’m amazed he even knew where it was..

First Thatcher’s recently, as well..

He's obviously never been to the pub (name escapes me) in Manchester's Northern Quarter that serves Cheddar Valley. From a plastic flagon behind the bar.

Proper! 

 

[B1ackbird]

I think the majority of people on here didn't want: "more of the same", but wanted someone with a proven track record of promotion to the PL.. 

Denos started very well and got us playing a (largely) more positive game.. 

Weather it was the right appointment only time will tell... 

[Prinny]

 

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The big difference imho is that Dean Holden isn’t using these examples to make himself look better.  Holden is self-deprecating, LJ was self-promoting.  It’s bought Dean some leeway.  Lee made it about him and therefore if you don’t succeed there are lots of people waiting to have a go.

Isn't he though? Why not? Because isn't that the outcome? How do you know his intent here? He doesn't have to take the interview, or cite the examples? What is he doing it for if not to promote himself?

Isn't the desire to have a beer with your family at the risk of endangering the safety of the players making it about him over the safety of the team? 

I think only winning gets you leeway. I do like Dean so far, but there's certainly stuff to have a go at here in this interview, if you want to.

30 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Doesn't Lee Johnson say about 90% of anything that is possible to say as he doesn't shut up!

If you took out the bit about the pub, and changed the names I wouldn't know who was being interviewed. Everything else is in the LJ wheelhouse.

[Robbored]

Whilst it’s good to see our football club in an article in a national broadsheet the fact is that Deano, like pretty much all managers don’t say anything we didn’t already know.

A good read for those who don’t follow Bristol City tho.

[tin]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

The big difference imho is that Dean Holden isn’t using these examples to make himself look better.  Holden is self-deprecating, LJ was self-promoting.  It’s bought Dean some leeway.  Lee made it about him and therefore if you don’t succeed there are lots of people waiting to have a go.

Spot on. LJ is propaganist who believes his own bullshit, DH is the total opposite. He deserves credit for that, even if I still don't think he's the best qualified candidate we could have got for the job. 

[CyderInACan]

1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

He's obviously never been to the pub (name escapes me) in Manchester's Northern Quarter that serves Cheddar Valley. From a plastic flagon behind the bar.

Proper! 

 

The Fringe, if I remember correctly? And if I don’t, you know full well why!

[steveybadger]

2 hours ago, Prinny said:

Read the article and swap the names. I don't think people would like it.

Lee Johnson goes down the pub for a photo opportunity (and breaks social distancing regulation AGAIN potentially infecting all the squad)

Lee Johnson brings up famous names/mentors in the game.

Lee Johnson talks about friends in other sports.

Lee Johnson tells you he's always on the phone and on the job.

Lee Johnson tells you how great Steve Lansdown is.

I'm the same though. It's nice to know more about him, but a negative start, and a couple years of not achieving promotion, and I don't think this goes down well.

Fair

[reddoh]

1 hour ago, B1ackbird said:

I think the majority of people on here didn't want: "more of the same", but wanted someone with a proven track record of promotion to the PL.. 

Denos started very well and got us playing a (largely) more positive game.. 

Weather it was the right appointment only time will tell... 

fair weather fan then?

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Prinny said:

 

Isn't he though? Why not? Because isn't that the outcome? How do you know his intent here? He doesn't have to take the interview, or cite the examples? What is he doing it for if not to promote himself?

Isn't the desire to have a beer with your family at the risk of endangering the safety of the players making it about him over the safety of the team? 

I think only winning gets you leeway. I do like Dean so far, but there's certainly stuff to have a go at here in this interview, if you want to.

If you took out the bit about the pub, and changed the names I wouldn't know who was being interviewed. Everything else is in the LJ wheelhouse.

I think you are cynical of pretty much all of Holden’s actions from your posts.  I’m not saying you’re wrong and you’re right to raise questions, but there is a theme.  Maybe your just holding back (rightly so) before crystallising your position.  That’s fine.

Imho, but @Robboredis the man with the psychological profiling skills I believe, Lee self promotes because he is insecure, possibly the fear of not achieving more than his dad, who he thinks he is a far better manager than.

Dean is more confident in his own abilities to not have to worry about bigging them up.  He can focus / deflect any praise to his team (staff and players).

Whilst you could read the Holden interview and perhaps substitute LJ’s name in, you can’t do the opposite with an LJ interview and put Holden’s name in....see below.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/football-league/lee-johnson-interview-mourinho-guardiola-manager-bristol-city-b1073104.html

[Red Army 75]

Thanks for posting. As much as I moaned about the appointment of Holden and it really wasn’t about him. I really hope he succeeds . Fantastic character about the man 

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, CyderInACan said:

The Fringe, if I remember correctly? And if I don’t, you know full well why!

That's 'im. Amazed you can remember!

[Prinny]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think you are cynical of pretty much all of Holden’s actions from your posts.  I’m not saying you’re wrong and you’re right to raise questions, but there is a theme.  Maybe your just holding back (rightly so) before crystallising your position.  That’s fine.

Imho, but @Robboredis the man with the psychological profiling skills I believe, Lee self promotes because he is insecure, possibly the fear of not achieving more than his dad, who he thinks he is a far better manager than.

Dean is more confident in his own abilities to not have to worry about bigging them up.  He can focus / deflect any praise to his team (staff and players).

Whilst you could read the Holden interview and perhaps substitute LJ’s name in, you can’t do the opposite with an LJ interview and put Holden’s name in....see below.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/football-league/lee-johnson-interview-mourinho-guardiola-manager-bristol-city-b1073104.html

I have a current opinion, but my opinion can evolve with further evidence. Cynical isn't the right term, because I'm questioning it, rather than believing it. I'm also not certain yet. Are you certain that he is absolutely not self promoting by taking this interview? 

I think the evidence of the pub incident, along with taking the interview flies of the face of a narrative that states that Dean Holden is not about self promoting or at least injects doubt. There's a possibility that taking interviews is a contractual obligation, or that the club is heavily in favour of it to help promote US but I don't have any evidence for that either. If someone provides that I'll cross self promotion off the list.

There a possibility that Dean Holden is incredibly naive and that endangering everyone connected with him was a horrible one time error of judgement because he just wanted to let the fans have photos so bad as he loves them so much and completely forgot about the worldwide pandemic and the need of someone who's the leader of a team, and in close contact with a bunch of people to follow the regulations.

But do you really think he's that forgetful, or stupid or naive or weak? If you have a positive view on Dean's character, I really want to know how you fit that incident into your view? It has to cast serious doubt about him IMO.

I misspoke when I said just swap the names, my bad, they clearly speak very differently. But the content of what they say is very similar which is what I meant to say and did so clumsily.

[Davefevs]

Ta.

Definitely agree re naivety.....when the spotlight is on you, and on you regularly, you have to be a bit more careful.

FWIW I don’t believe he is self-promoting.  Having met him a few times I genuinely believe that.

Even though I joke with #holdenball I totally accept he’s got a lot of hard work to do....and in this division finding that edge to push to top 6 rather than just being a bit better than 12th and always being on the periphery is not an easy thing.  We will know whether he has “it” as the season goes on.

Like Bakinson it’s an encouraging start....the challenge comes when the opposition suss you out.  Success comes when you work out solutions without having to drastically change every game.

[Robbored]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Imho, but @Robboredis the man with the psychological profiling skills I believe, Lee self promotes because he is insecure, possibly the fear of not achieving more than his dad, who he thinks he is a far better manager than.

Dean is more confident in his own abilities to not have to worry about bigging them up.  He can focus / deflect any praise to his team (staff and players).

A spot on and succinct assessment Dave. 

The main reason that I lost faith in LJ was that after a couple of seasons he began to develop the same traits as his dad - similar phraseology, bigging himself up and trying to express an ‘I know that I’m knowledgeable manager, you should listen to me’ aura but when questioned he didn’t really have any answers. Eventually he began to play the same dreary and drab football as his dad had served up. He became just like his father and that was enough for me.

Personally I’m delighted that the miasma left by the Johnsons is finally clearing.