Pato & Weimann

[old_eastender]

Today marked the 3rd poor display in a row for Pato, topped off by his loose pass directly leading to the Swansea goal. Most of the time he seemed to be hiding, lost count of the number of times Dasilva had the ball and Pato made no attempt to offer himself up as an option. Twice he did get into good positions only to then hit really weak shots, also wasted possession numerous times. 

Wiemann at least was better then against Boro, did make himself available to help out in midfield but ultimately created nothing.

COD made more impact in 15 mins than either of Pato or Wiemann did all game, same was true at Barnsley unfortunately blotting his copybook with the calamitous challenge that gave Barnsley their pen.

We had far too many games under LJ where these two kept being picked regardless of their form and I don't care how good they look in training!  It's about what they do on a match day that should matter. Based on that Pato should definitely not be starting, and Wiemann starting is questionable.

Whilst Williams & Walsh are out, I'd like to see Bakinson, with one of Nagy/Massengo/Brunt and COD given a chance to start.

However, I really do fear that Holden (perhaps unsurprisingly having been LJs assistant for 4 years) has the same 'blindness' when it comes to these two. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[IAmNick]

I'm probably in a minority but I'd still play Weimann. I really rate him and think he's an excellent player at this level.

It's Paterson I'm not sure about - when it clicks it's great, but when it doesn't he offers little and you don't know if it'll be 1 game or 10 games until it does again. His highs are really high, but his lows are pretty low.

If we're sticking with the 3-5-2 (and assuming the injuries stay the same) for now I'd keep Bakinson and Weimann in, and swap Pato for Massengo personally - including giving him license to play further forward.

COD has been here for 4 years, and made over 120 appearances (granted a lot as a sub) and if he's still struggling to break into the team or even show what he really has to offer that's a indication that it's probably not going to work out for him here in my opinion.

[GrahamC]

We’re going to get this thread every time we don’t win, aren’t we?

Be very surprised if Weimann is available on Wednesday, so it will become academic if so.

[LoyalRed]

Well we pushed out all our other attacking midfielders in favour of Pato so if you are saying he’s not up to it we are in trouble 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

S'funny Old Eastender should come up with a negative.

Now .... just remind me .: was this the same pair of LJ & DH who couldn't possibly have kept on picking Pato by the virtue of the fact they shipped him off on loan to Derby??

 

There's agenda's and then there's very silly comments.  

[tin]

I was very surprised to see Nagy and Massengo not even named on the bench today after the displays of Pato and to a lesser extent Weimann in midweek. Holden’s clearly a believer in them, even if the load of 7 games in 20 days is bound to negatively affect their performances. I also think opponents have worked those two out. 

I’d much prefer to see Nagy and/or Massengo in contention for CM along with Bakinson and Brunt, although I still don’t see the point in him being signed and letting Morrell go. That gives us four genuine CM for three positions until Williams and Walsh are fit. 

I’m a big believer in a good squad having two players for every position. I like the fact we’ve settled on a system and recruited players to fit it. Playing a 3-5-2, that ideally means six central midfielders in the squad, ideally 2 x holders, 2 x box-to-box, and 2 x creators/playmakers. 

Instead, we’ve got one holder (Bakinson), three box-to-box (Nagy, Massengo, Williams), three creators (Brunt, Walsh, Paterson). I exclude Weimann as his best position is further forward and COD as he’s more of a winger, IMO. Both players are jacks of many trades, masters of none. 

The point is you can see how lopsided that is. We could’ve had 2 x holders (Bakinson, Morrell), 2 x box-to-box (Williams, Nagy or Massengo), 2 x creators (Walsh, Pato or Palmer). That would’ve enabled us to rotate far easier than currently.

In the absence of any other genuine CM, Massengo and/or Nagy should’ve been on the bench at least today and Holden’s flogging a dead horse with JP and AM.

[marcofisher]

The midfield blend was all wrong today. I couldn’t understand why Brunt was so deep, especially when we have Moore who could bring it out. Brunt was effectively always in the area that Moore wants to bring the ball out to, and it just resulted in us being pushed deeper into our own half.

[Eddie Notgetinya]

I like Pato but he is Mr. Inconsistant. People keep jizzing over him when he has a few good games but history shows he will then disappear for ages. In my opinion he doesn’t fit in any of those three CM positions.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

1 minute ago, tin said:

I was very surprised to see Nagy and Massengo not even named on the bench today after the displays of Pato and to a lesser extent Weimann in midweek. Holden’s clearly a believer in them, even if the load of 7 games in 20 days is bound to negatively affect their performances. I also think opponents have worked those two out. 

I’d much prefer to see Nagy and/or Massengo in contention for CM along with Bakinson and Brunt, although I still don’t see the point in him being signed and letting Morrell go. That gives us four genuine CM for three positions until Williams and Walsh are fit. 

I’m a big believer in a good squad having two players for every position. I like the fact we’ve settled on a system and recruited players to fit it. Playing a 3-5-2, that ideally means six central midfielders in the squad, ideally 2 x holders, 2 x box-to-box, and 2 x creators/playmakers. 

Instead, we’ve got one holder (Bakinson), three box-to-box (Nagy, Massengo, Williams), three creators (Brunt, Walsh, Paterson). I exclude Weimann as his best position is further forward and COD as he’s more of a winger, IMO. Both players are jacks of many trades, masters of none. 

The point is you can see how lopsided that is. We could’ve had 2 x holders (Bakinson, Morrell), 2 x box-to-box (Williams, Nagy or Massengo), 2 x creators (Walsh, Pato or Palmer). That would’ve enabled us to rotate far easier than currently.

In the absence of any other genuine CM, Massengo and/or Nagy should’ve been on the bench at least today and Holden’s flogging a dead horse with JP and AM.

If we had kept Morrell and Palmer we would have had the most midfielders in our history and a wage bill to drag us to 1982 whilst the mf's who didn't make the match day would have eventually thrown their toys from pram as some might still.

Meanwhile- Pato has been probably our best player since his return from Derby up until the last couple of matches. Flogging a dead horse?? ....Jeez.FFS.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Eddie Notgetinya said:

I like Pato but he is Mr. Inconsistant. People keep jizzing over him when he has a few good games but history shows he will then disappear for ages. In my opinion he doesn’t fit in any of those three CM positions.

What he’s failed to do in the last couple / few games is come deep and just get himself involved, even for a bit of give and get, repeat.  That was some of the good stuff I saw in those games last season and parts of this.  He’s too far forward too early....hence he’s not getting involved enough.

[tin]

27 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

If we had kept Morrell and Palmer we would have had the most midfielders in our history and a wage bill to drag us to 1982 whilst the mf's who didn't make the match day would have eventually thrown their toys from pram as some might still.

Meanwhile- Pato has been probably our best player since his return from Derby up until the last couple of matches. Flogging a dead horse?? ....Jeez.FFS.

Why would we have had the most midfielders in history when I’ve said we’d ideally have six CM to cover three places in this system? We could’ve tried to move on others. For example, I guarantee you Pato is on more than Morrell was so that would’ve made more sense financially. 

Pato is better when he’s further forward, either off the main striker or from the left. Even then he still turns it on one game in every ten. He’s not a CM and persisting with this experiment when, IMO, opponents have wised up is asking for trouble. If he’s leggy, rest him and play Nagy or Massengo. 

[Redrascal2]

25 minutes ago, tin said:

I was very surprised to see Nagy and Massengo not even named on the bench today after the displays of Pato and to a lesser extent Weimann in midweek. Holden’s clearly a believer in them, even if the load of 7 games in 20 days is bound to negatively affect their performances. I also think opponents have worked those two out. 

I’d much prefer to see Nagy and/or Massengo in contention for CM along with Bakinson and Brunt, although I still don’t see the point in him being signed and letting Morrell go. That gives us four genuine CM for three positions until Williams and Walsh are fit. 

I’m a big believer in a good squad having two players for every position. I like the fact we’ve settled on a system and recruited players to fit it. Playing a 3-5-2, that ideally means six central midfielders in the squad, ideally 2 x holders, 2 x box-to-box, and 2 x creators/playmakers. 

Instead, we’ve got one holder (Bakinson), three box-to-box (Nagy, Massengo, Williams), three creators (Brunt, Walsh, Paterson). I exclude Weimann as his best position is further forward and COD as he’s more of a winger, IMO. Both players are jacks of many trades, masters of none. 

The point is you can see how lopsided that is. We could’ve had 2 x holders (Bakinson, Morrell), 2 x box-to-box (Williams, Nagy or Massengo), 2 x creators (Walsh, Pato or Palmer). That would’ve enabled us to rotate far easier than currently.

In the absence of any other genuine CM, Massengo and/or Nagy should’ve been on the bench at least today and Holden’s flogging a dead horse with JP and AM.

The worst thing about this situation with Pato and Weimann is DH is behaving exactly like LJ where these two are concerned. I had hoped it would be a clean slate with DH at least not repeating the mistakes that LJ made. How two consecutive managers can pick Pato when he specialises in becoming invisible in most games is beyond me. 

[mozo]

24 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

What he’s failed to do in the last couple / few games is come deep and just get himself involved, even for a bit of give and get, repeat.  That was some of the good stuff I saw in those games last season and parts of this.  He’s too far forward too early....hence he’s not getting involved enough.

Paterson is also slipping into that Weimann habit of messing up his critical opportunities in the final third (passing and shooting)

[Major Isewater]

22 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

The worst thing about this situation with Pato and Weimann is DH is behaving exactly like LJ where these two are concerned. I had hoped it would be a clean slate with DH at least not repeating the mistakes that LJ made. How two consecutive managers can pick Pato when he specialises in becoming invisible in most games is beyond me. 

Pato has the most assists at the club this season and is top scorer ( I believe) so difficult to leave him out . 
 

[spudski]

Condensed version.

Pato and Weimann in for energy and press.

We've gone reliant on British. 'in manner style'.

[Davefevs]

Picking up on some themes of other posters, what it looks like we are seeing is that these two are more than good enough in a CM3 against the “poorer” sides, but exposed against the “better” teams.  I’m not defining poorer or better because it could be a dependent on opposition style too.

But it does stand to reason that the better teams will test you more, find your weaknesses, etc.

It’s not a case of throwing everything in the bin, but finding ways to improve what we’ve got. If Weimann is injured I do see the perfect opportunity to play Brunt and Bakinson and one other.  I made the point on Forever Bristol pod that Brunt was “haring” around today, so whereas I wouldn’t have minded seeing him left of Bakinson (Weimann right of) today, I think on Wednesday I could see him playing central and allowing Bakinson to play either alongside him in more of a two, or as the more adventurous in a 3.

[Wrongagain]

1 hour ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

S'funny Old Eastender should come up with a negative.

Now .... just remind me .: was this the same pair of LJ & DH who couldn't possibly have kept on picking Pato by the virtue of the fact they shipped him off on loan to Derby??

 

There's agenda's and then there's very silly comments.  

Pato being shipped out to Derby was his wake up call, after 1 1/2 seasons of stealing a wage, which did not end at Derby, they were eventually glad to see him gone!

It did not take him long to revert to type, he’s had a few good games since his return but hiding is his best skill - I agree that he was instrumental in Swansea’s goal and that he wasted some of the best chances we had today.

I can see why Holden keeps starting him, his goals have been invaluable but his inconsistency has cost us dear. Time to move him on - but who would want him?

[1960maaan]

39 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Pato has the most assists at the club this season and is top scorer ( I believe) so difficult to leave him out . 
 

Most assists, Martin and Wells is top scorer. Even then I would say he has to be close to a rest, been closer to the Paterson I dislike of pre Derby. Drifts out of games and chooses blind alleys. He's not there yet , but has been almost anonymous for the last 2 games.

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

What he’s failed to do in the last couple / few games is come deep and just get himself involved, even for a bit of give and get, repeat.  That was some of the good stuff I saw in those games last season and parts of this.  He’s too far forward too early....hence he’s not getting involved enough.

Weimann seemed to be coming deeper today, I'm sure he deepest man at one stage. I don't recall coming anywhere near as deep. With Semenyo working the left side well it's a shame Pato didn't drop for those give and goes. Couple of runs, one where he went through on goal, but not nearly enough.

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Most assists, Martin and Wells is top scorer. Even then I would say he has to be close to a rest, been closer to the Paterson I dislike of pre Derby. Drifts out of games and chooses blind alleys. He's not there yet , but has been almost anonymous for the last 2 games.

Weimann seemed to be coming deeper today, I'm sure he deepest man at one stage. I don't recall coming anywhere near as deep. With Semenyo working the left side well it's a shame Pato didn't drop for those give and goes. Couple of runs, one where he went through on goal, but not nearly enough.

Pato’s contribution today was playing right hand side and stopping Guehi playing.  That’s not really his job, but in fairness he did do that (for the team’s benefit).  But we need him on the ball, getting it between the lines, creating.  He didn’t do that today.  In a little spell when Brunt finally started getting on the ball, he fizzed a ball into Pato in a great pocket and he set Sessegnon down the right.  But it was few and far between.

[1960maaan]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Pato’s contribution today was playing right hand side and stopping Guehi playing.  That’s not really his job, but in fairness he did do that (for the team’s benefit).

This is another advert for the "extra" midfielder. I'm not his biggest fan, but I feel if you're going to play him you don't waste him doing a marking job , or donkey work. Whatever I think he has that little bit of magic that can open defences . I'd like to see him as a 10 behind Wells & Semenyo . 

[LondonBristolian]

I get why managers love Weimann and his energy and running were key to our early form but I think the problem is that, because managers love him, he gets picked every game and the more knackered he is, the less effective he is.

With Paterson, I just wonder if he plays better when he feels he has something to prove or his under pressure for his place. At the moment, Williams and Walsh are not fit and it feels like Nagy and Massengo are not putting him under enough pressure for a starting spot. Hopefully Williams and Walsh are going to be fit at some point but the team cannot be sitting around waiting for them. The players out of the team really need to start to make a case for themselves in training. At the moment it feels we rely too much on two players and then get annoyed when it transpires that we cannot rely on them as much as we do. It doesn‘t feel fair or sensible.

[Dullmoan Tone]

2 hours ago, tin said:

Instead, we’ve got one holder (Bakinson), three box-to-box (Nagy, Massengo, Williams), three creators (Brunt, Walsh, Paterson).

I don’t think I would ever describe HNM as box to box - what on earth makes you suggest this?

Aside from Williams, who I know little about, I would struggle to use this term for Nagy either. 
 

[RedNachos]

What concerns me is the fact Holden clearly backs Paterson (who I don't rate and never have for reasons others have said above) and has shown this by loaning Palmer, you feel the competition for Pato's role in midfielder is weaker than the other 2 places. Somewhere we could strengthen?

[mozo]

I really think we could have done with Massengo's energy today. Fair enough O'Dowda brought energy, but injuries necessitated another busy bee in the midfield.

[RobintheRed Red]

5 hours ago, old_eastender said:

Today marked the 3rd poor display in a row for Pato, topped off by his loose pass directly leading to the Swansea goal. Most of the time he seemed to be hiding, lost count of the number of times Dasilva had the ball and Pato made no attempt to offer himself up as an option. Twice he did get into good positions only to then hit really weak shots, also wasted possession numerous times. 

Wiemann at least was better then against Boro, did make himself available to help out in midfield but ultimately created nothing.

COD made more impact in 15 mins than either of Pato or Wiemann did all game, same was true at Barnsley unfortunately blotting his copybook with the calamitous challenge that gave Barnsley their pen.

We had far too many games under LJ where these two kept being picked regardless of their form and I don't care how good they look in training!  It's about what they do on a match day that should matter. Based on that Pato should definitely not be starting, and Wiemann starting is questionable.

Whilst Williams & Walsh are out, I'd like to see Bakinson, with one of Nagy/Massengo/Brunt and COD given a chance to start.

However, I really do fear that Holden (perhaps unsurprisingly having been LJs assistant for 4 years) has the same 'blindness' when it comes to these two. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I totally agree weinmann looks wanked out patterson ok on his day but not consistant like most wide players we need a engine in midfield to help out Bakinson the  midfield is weak as piss no supply to the frontline .

[tin]

8 hours ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

I don’t think I would ever describe HNM as box to box - what on earth makes you suggest this?

Aside from Williams, who I know little about, I would struggle to use this term for Nagy either. 
 

It’s an opinion, Tone. Nagy and HNM certainly are not holders or creators. HNM might be a creator in time, but on the evidence I’ve seen they’ve both been at their best picking up the ball from deep and looking to get forward. One thing’s for sure, both of them are better suited to a three-man midfield. 

The other problem with not even including them on the bench is the longer this goes on, the more match fitness they’ll lack. They will be needed. Very few if any midfielders can perform at their highest levels in three games a week. 

[Numero Uno]

If we are sticking to the current system I would go Bakinson, Brunt and  one of Weimann, Paterson or O’Dowda next game.

For the minority of fans who continue to wet the bed I’m sure the manager will see that the current mix isn’t balanced and will adjust it accordingly.

It is becoming clear that a small number actually WANT Holden to fail, terms like Tombola, sacked by Xmas and clone of the previous manager being bandied about without needing to search too hard, presumably on the basis that being proved right is more important? Some of the people using the term “tombola” being amongst the most keen to totally rip up our midfield.
 

My view remains unchanged.....if Holden fails we still remain with the same decision makers and ownership above him. What will change in the long term if we fire him on Boxing Day?

[Alessandro]

Watching us this season I often feel we leave big spaces in midfield (especially in translation) resulting in the forwards looking isolated or the defenders left to pump a hopeful ball over the top.
 

I think a midfield of Brunt and Bakinson could make that worse. Both prefer to sit deep, Bakinson doesn’t like to be pressed. Brunt I guess is better on the ball under pressure further up the pitch, but will drop deep to collect it.

We need players happy and consistently effective on the ball in the final third. Pato and Weimann can offer that, but not consistently enough for me.

It’s a difficult one. Keen to see if Williams and/or Walsh can help with the midfield dilemma.