AG Redevelopment latest

[nebristolred]

4 hours ago, pillred said:

Would it not be possible to build a mirror image of the Lansdown where the Dolman stand is now that would boost capacity to around 33,000 plus a bit of development on the Atyeo sides we could be looking at 35,000 if we ever needed to if we ever went up and looked like sustaining it by using the TV money.

This is where we would be best placed to expand if we did want to expand AG imo. It would require purchase of the land behind it, but the block of flats are nearing the end of their lifespan, which might make it a little more likely. Though it's possible that any planning deal might require an element of accommodation built alongside as well.

An identical stand to the Lansdown would take us to ~32,000, probably a good capacity for us if we were in the PL, would result in a lopsided ground. Besides, it would be cool to have something different from the Lansdown anyways.

3 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I don't get why buying up those houses is necessary anymore.

In this day and age, it must surely be possible for someone to design a stand that's a bit taller but still doesn't impinge on the houses behind. Might need to be a bit funky but funky's fine - it would be good to have one stand that's architecturally interesting and unique, that makes our ground identifiably Ashton Gate, identifiably BCFC rather than some soulless new build bowl that could be anyone's ground from the outside. But I digress. 

There's plenty of room between the houses and the back of the Atyeo and, anyway, hasn't the old "right to light" argument been abolished?

Personally I think the houses in Ashton Road are a red herring. The stand won't be redeveloped because we don't need the extra seats right now. End of. The only way that will change is if we establish ourselves in the Prem for a good few years and it's a 27,000 sell out every week.

Pigs might fly too, mind. 

I actually think modern times would make it worse to be honest. I won't pretend to know much about planning regulations and the like, but they are likely stricter than they were before. If we assume the Atyeo is already as high as it can possibly be (which I think it is considering it was originally meant to be two-tiered I believe), chances are a new stand would result in reduced capacity given facility requirements/legroom, etc would probably be higher. That's ignoring the possibility of it wrapping around the Dolman corner, or ignoring having a shallower rake, which would allow more seats but product terrible views.

The dream imo would be getting to the Prem, buying the houses, and sticking a great one-tier stand there, similar to what Sheff Utd wanted, but it's very unlikely.

[TV Tom]

4 hours ago, pillred said:

I did say mid twenties was still pretty good, and yes our fickle lot did desert us in the 80s, and yes you are right Ashton gate was a pretty depressing place with 3 or 4 thousand in it and that was in the days it held 40,000, I like to think we made almost as much noise as some of the crowds we have had lately though to be fair we have not had an awful lot to get exited about for a while.

It was the same all over the country not just at AG during the 80s & early 90s

[Monkeh]

Big attendances doesn't equal success 

Cardiff, Swansea, Brentford, Bournemouth, Fulham,

They don't turn out in massive numbers and are relatively successful,

Investing in the right players and shrewd management on the pitch and in the board room gets success,

Obsession over attendance is on par with the gas boosting about away attendances 

[pillred]

3 hours ago, Monkeh said:

Big attendances doesn't equal success 

Cardiff, Swansea, Brentford, Bournemouth, Fulham,

They don't turn out in massive numbers and are relatively successful,

Investing in the right players and shrewd management on the pitch and in the board room gets success,

Obsession over attendance is on par with the gas boosting about away attendances 

But big attendances do seem to equal success, all the really successful clubs have large attendances of well over 40,000 Liverpool, Spurs, Man city, and in Spain, Real Madrid Barcelona etc, yes those clubs you named have been in the premier league but apart from Brentford did not sustain it which is why we would likely always be a middling club in the top flight at best, Leicester city were a once in a lifetime occurrence Large crowds are in some ways not as important as they once were yet still the BIG clubs with their big attendances tend to dominate.

[Wolf Island]

There is space behind the Dolman. pitch rotated 90 degrees. Lansdown becomes the away end, extended South Stand and new Atyeo at the sides, new Dolman home end. 

[exAtyeoMax]

17 minutes ago, Wolf Island said:

There is space behind the Dolman. pitch rotated 90 degrees. Lansdown becomes the away end, extended South Stand and new Atyeo at the sides, new Dolman home end. 

The pitch would go across the stream though? I just had a look on Google maps

[downendcity]

30 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

The pitch would go across the stream though? I just had a look on Google maps

Never seen a pro pitch with a water feature!

[italian dave]

9 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I don't get why buying up those houses is necessary anymore.

In this day and age, it must surely be possible for someone to design a stand that's a bit taller but still doesn't impinge on the houses behind. Might need to be a bit funky but funky's fine - it would be good to have one stand that's architecturally interesting and unique, that makes our ground identifiably Ashton Gate, identifiably BCFC rather than some soulless new build bowl that could be anyone's ground from the outside. But I digress. 

There's plenty of room between the houses and the back of the Atyeo and, anyway, hasn't the old "right to light" argument been abolished?

Personally I think the houses in Ashton Road are a red herring. The stand won't be redeveloped because we don't need the extra seats right now. End of. The only way that will change is if we establish ourselves in the Prem for a good few years and it's a 27,000 sell out every week.

Pigs might fly too, mind. 

My knowledge is limited, but I believe one issue is around terminology.

Right to light is a civil matter, not a planning issue. So in effect the club could “buy out” any potential objections, or just take their chance in a civil case for compensation.

”Sunlight and daylight” is a planning matter, and that includes the impact of proposed developments on neighbouring properties. It’s part of national planning guidance, although local authorities are allowed their own policies on it.

And that sunlight and daylight assessment is really very complicated and technical - you’d assume he club would get their own assessment very early on, and building something as big as a stand is going to make it harder, but equally I’d agree with you that there must be imaginative and innovative architectural solutions to minimise the impact. 

But I also think you’re right about the ambition. Plus, of course, once you reach the promised land of the Prem, income from TV rights becomes much much more significant than ticket income anyway. 

I suppose the only thing to counter that is that SL has ambitions to see Bristol as a major player in the national sporting picture, and we’re never going to attract, say, national fixtures or international tournament fixtures while we have a 27000 capacity. 

[CyderInACan]

11 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Only time I have been there, as you say only about 12,000 or 13,000 there & they were booed off at the end of the 0-0 draw.

Aaaah the Geordie Nation, Best Fans in the World 

[Wealwayseatcheese]

1 hour ago, Wolf Island said:

There is space behind the Dolman. pitch rotated 90 degrees. Lansdown becomes the away end, extended South Stand and new Atyeo at the sides, new Dolman home end. 

Not enough space to rotate pitch and build new stand. Have a look on Google maps. Flats are way to close 

[beaverface]

Talk of buying the houses for £15million is nothing compared to the parachute payments that relegated clubs get from the premier league, circa ~£90million.

We wouldn't need to redevelop the Atyeo unless we make it to the Premier league - and if we did, I'd like us to follow the model that Burnley did when they first made it to premier, and bank the money for club infrastructure rather than blow the money on players. If we get relegated, so be it, but at least the long term plan is in place then.

Longer term, the Atyeo needs to done properly, and that includes pulling down the houses to build as big as possible (a proper large single tiered identifiable home end).

The Dolman and\or flats are coming close to the end of their lifespan. Maybe a deal could be done for the flats to be relocated as affordable homes\council tenants on the housing project that Steve Lansdown is building in Long Ashton to enable the Dolman to be rebuilt bigger (and in a different style to the Lansdown), and maybe a style that doesn't have roof supports preventing wrap around tiers.

Finally, I thought the South Stand was built with expansion in mind, but they dropped the prospect of executive boxes and an internal mezzanine floor at the last minute, but I thought it was designed with those in mind. And Ultimately, I believe it's only a handful of houses in Raynes road preventing us expanding the South Stand a lot higher and bigger.

Yes, to summarise, money is an issue, but not so much in the Premier, and with SL's backing it's a lot more doable.

I just hope we don't go for a half-baked option, and we look to do it properly.

[archie andrews]

52 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Never seen a pro pitch with a water feature!

I agree.. Cant beat a bit of watersports.... 

[phantom]

It does make me laugh how this topic comes up time and time again, lets face it we've basically built to the maximum of our capability, it's one of the stumbling blocks with asking for additional investment into the club

There is no scope to move any stands back, the club recognise this

[Supersonic Robin]

18 hours ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

Presumably with the addition of many plastics. Other than the novelty of a first season there is nothing to suggest we could maintain a crowd if 26k. We celebrate the sale of 14k season tickets. It hurts me to say it but for a City the size of Bristol that's pathetic. Cities and towns much smaller than Bristol support sides with consistently larger support than ourselves. We have a really large catchment area compared to many. It's not as if we we sit in the shadow of much larger clubs as they do in London, the Midlands or in North West England. 

 

17 hours ago, bris red said:

I’d spin it the other way though and say that in actual fact for a club that has had so little success and hasn’t been in the topflight for over 40 years to be pulling in an average attendance of 20k plus most weeks is very impressive..

Catchment area means nothing its generational success and a sustained period of time in the topflight that grows a fanbase and as i said all that considered we are a well supported football club imho.

12 hours ago, bris red said:

What other club in the country that hasn’t played topflight football since the early 80s can match out attendance’s?

I think you both make valid points. IMO we sit in an odd position as a club - we have a weird combination of high potential and low success, I can't think of many (if any?) other teams that are as "big" as us but have achieved as little as we have.

Perhaps I'm an optimist, but I tend to lean further towards Bris Red's view of things here - I'm fairly confident we could sell out most weeks in the Premier League. Our attendances aren't that great relative to the size of our city, but that's because our history of achievement isn't either. As Bris Red said, how many other clubs can get 20k attendances in the Championship without top flight football for 40 years and without ever winning a trophy?

The one positive about our historical underachievement is that it means we still have room to grow - and that includes attendances. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we're going to be getting 60k a week, but 30k a week seems very realistic for a club of our size in the Premier League. Maybe we would even see a larger surge in support as local 'glory supporters' finally have a local Premier League team to support? 

[beaverface]

8 minutes ago, phantom said:

It does make me laugh how this topic comes up time and time again, lets face it we've basically built to the maximum of our capability, it's one of the stumbling blocks with asking for additional investment into the club

There is no scope to move any stands back, the club recognise this

I both disagree and agree with you.

I don't believe we've built to the maximum of our capability, however I do feel finance to do so would be very high, so in some ways you're both right and wrong.

Nothing is insurmountable with the right ambitions(and money)

[CyderInACan]

35 minutes ago, beaverface said:

Longer term, the Atyeo needs to done properly, and that includes pulling down the houses to build as big as possible (a proper large single tiered identifiable home end).

It's just not going to happen. We need to move on from this fairy tale that crops up far too regularly. 

[pillred]

2 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

It's just not going to happen. We need to move on from this fairy tale that crops up far too regularly. 

Which with hindsight makes our inability to get the Ashton Vale project off the ground very disappointing. I know a lot of people were glad that we did not move but me? I think it was a lost opportunity to move the club forward. 

[beaverface]

5 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

It's just not going to happen. We need to move on from this fairy tale that crops up far too regularly. 

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts as to what the blockers are for making this realistic rather than a fairy tale?

[frenchred]

um, why do we need a bigger ground?

we never sell out now, if we got to the prem, day trippers and casual fans would top up our attendances to full probably but once in the premier attendances become pretty immaterial in the big scheme of things and when the inevitable relegation comes a bigger ground would look stupid half filled!

[Sandhurst Red]

The same had been said for years with the likes of Anfield, and Craven Cottage.

Grounds that were unable to be modified due to location and surrounding area - however with advances in engineering and changing circumstance of the area, these are now a reality. 

Is it imminent we redevelop A/G further? No, not beyond the plans for the Flyers.
Is it likely that we could expand the Atyeo and Dolman, and have a plan should we need to. Yes, very much so - and plans do exist. 

 

[Leveller]

I imagine it would be possible to rebuild a bigger Atyeo without removing the houses behind, by using up the car parking area? But do we need it?

Buying the houses and demolishing would be ridiculously expensive and controversial. Apart from the cost being prohibitive, one can imagine some owners refusing to sell, and conservationists fighting the demolition of Victorian/Edwardian buildings.

Frankly, the net capacity increase seems unlikely to be worth the effort. We have a 27K capacity; Leicester, a club which probably reflects what we’d look like if we were much more successful, has an average attendance around 31K. I don’t think we’d need much over 27K if we got promoted. And Bournemouth/Brentford are coping without the capacity we have.

[Son of Fred]

30 minutes ago, pillred said:

Which with hindsight makes our inability to get the Ashton Vale project off the ground very disappointing. I know a lot of people were glad that we did not move but me? I think it was a lost opportunity to move the club forward. 

Kind of agree in more ways than just stadium capacity - would maybe have mentally 'set the stage'.

I'm very happy mind at Ashton Gate,,a semi old man with my memories - although should we with a little luck & a decent tail wind at some point make it to the premier league I feel the actual usable capacity of about 26,000 will in the main be well short of demand.

[CiderJar]

32 minutes ago, Leveller said:

 Frankly, the net capacity increase seems unlikely to be worth the effort. We have a 27K capacity; Leicester, a club which probably reflects what we’d look like if we were much more successful, has an average attendance around 31K. I don’t think we’d need much over 27K if we got promoted. And Bournemouth/Brentford are coping without the capacity we have.

If you have a spare 20 minutes this gives an interesting rationale behind Bournemouth not increasing their capacity.

If you haven't got a spare 20 minutes the rationale is that investment in training infrastructure and the team itself is more cost effective than any income generated from increased capacity. 

Which is pretty much the point you were making.
 

 

[Bristol Rob]

2 hours ago, downendcity said:

Never seen a pro pitch with a water feature!

We could get LJ back.

Give him a pointy little hat, wheelbarrow and a fishing rod and make him an attraction.

[Bristol Rob]

Could just stick a second tier on the south stand for those who like the idea of increasing capacity.

[Merrick's Marvels]

8 hours ago, nebristolred said:

If we assume the Atyeo is already as high as it can possibly be (which I think it is considering it was originally meant to be two-tiered I believe), chances are a new stand would result in reduced capacity given facility requirements/legroom, etc would probably be higher. That's ignoring the possibility of it wrapping around the Dolman corner, or ignoring having a shallower rake, which would allow more seats but product terrible views.

The dream imo would be getting to the Prem, buying the houses, and sticking a great one-tier stand there, similar to what Sheff Utd wanted, but it's very unlikely.

I would disagree with that 100%, given the advances in design and engineering

 

1 hour ago, beaverface said:

I don't believe we've built to the maximum of our capability, however I do feel finance to do so would be very high, so in some ways you're both right and wrong.

Nothing is insurmountable with the right ambitions(and money)

Agreed. Even leaving the Atyeo to one side, stick another tier on the South Stand or on the Lansdown (binoculars might be required by fans in the latter)

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, Sandhurst Red said:

The same had been said for years with the likes of Anfield, and Craven Cottage.

Grounds that were unable to be modified due to location and surrounding area - however with advances in engineering and changing circumstance of the area, these are now a reality. 

Is it imminent we redevelop A/G further? No, not beyond the plans for the Flyers.
Is it likely that we could expand the Atyeo and Dolman, and have a plan should we need to. Yes, very much so - and plans do exist. 

 

Agreed and interesting that you know plans exist - are you Richard Gould, "Sandhurst"?

1 hour ago, pillred said:

Which with hindsight makes our inability to get the Ashton Vale project off the ground very disappointing. I know a lot of people were glad that we did not move but me? I think it was a lost opportunity to move the club forward. 

100%. With bells on. 

 

1 hour ago, Son of Fred said:

I'm very happy mind at Ashton Gate,,a semi old man with my memories - although should we with a little luck & a decent tail wind at some point make it to the premier league I feel the actual usable capacity of about 26,000 will in the main be well short of demand.

This is it. The argument that you don't actually need the income because you get so much TV money anyway kind of misses the point.

Bournemouth can come up with as many excuses as they like about why they're not increasing their capacity - we all know the real reason though - no-one's interested in them; there aren't 30,000 Bournemouth fans gagging to get in every weekend - if you live on the south coast you support Plymouth, Saints, Pompey or Brighton depending on your location. Bournemouth are an irrelevance. 

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Merrick's Marvels

[Wolf Island]

3 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said:

The pitch would go across the stream though? I just had a look on Google maps

Culvert 

[Wolf Island]

2 hours ago, Wealwayseatcheese said:

Not enough space to rotate pitch and build new stand. Have a look on Google maps. Flats are way to close 

They are apparently nearing the end of their life. 

[Supersonic Robin]

1 hour ago, billywedlock said:

I like the expression high potential and low success, and that is right. The Prem is a huge machine, and we would sell out a very much bigger ground than AG. But for all this potential, any new investor or buyer, will look at the landlocked ground, and feel it is not the right size or scope for a long term Prem club. AG is fine , for now, but the lack of space to increase the capacity could put off a serious investor who has Prem plans. Yes tv income is the major source of income, but there is a reason so many Prem grounds are being expanded. 

Interesting point - I hadn't put much thought into the appeal to investors re space to expand, nor can I say that I know much about what investors are typically looking for in a club. I'd have thought we'd look like a fairly decent investment compared to many Championship clubs?

How big an error do you think the decision to stay at AG as oppose to move to a new site was? A blunder in terms of our potential to grow, or just a bit of an obstacle to overcome? Could the new basketball stadium and full Bristol Sport package perhaps compensate for that?