AG Redevelopment latest

[nebristolred]

21 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I would disagree with that 100%, given the advances in design and engineering

How come? How would you get more seats into the same height stand, without a lower rake? What advances in engineering would overcome that?

Edited July 14, 2022 by nebristolred

[Merrick's Marvels]

17 minutes ago, Supersonic Robin said:

Interesting point - I hadn't put much thought into the appeal to investors re space to expand, nor can I say that I know much about what investors are typically looking for in a club. I'd have thought we'd look like a fairly decent investment compared to many Championship clubs?

There's plenty of ways to increase capacity. Might cost a few bob but can't imagine it would deter investors, especially not as all this is predicated on us being in the Prem. As if! 

10 minutes ago, nebristolred said:

How come? How would you get more seats into the same height stand, without a lower rake?

But I didn't say that, so we're talking at cross purposes.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Merrick's Marvels

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

I'm loving this thread which has engendered some real debate. There are differences of opinion but without any rancour and with many valid points being made on all sides of the argument. I do like most threads on OTIB, not minding the comical quips and setting off on tangents, but this one is a real winner. 

[phantom]

1 hour ago, beaverface said:

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts as to what the blockers are for making this realistic rather than a fairy tale?

Do you honestly think that every single home owner will sell to Bristol Sport?

Simply never going to happen - it was a rumour many years ago that the club were buying houses, they weren't and won't be

11 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

There's plenty of ways to increase capacity. Might cost a few bob but can't imagine it would deter investors, especially not if this is all predicated on being in the Prem. 

You may be surprised as to what has been happening then

[Merrick's Marvels]

3 minutes ago, phantom said:

You may be surprised as to what has been happening then

Come on, you can't say that and then just walk off!

There has to be some Yank with more money than sense who's interested in owning a soccerball franchise in the wild west country.

[pongo88]

1 hour ago, Leveller said:

I imagine it would be possible to rebuild a bigger Atyeo without removing the houses behind, by using up the car parking area? But do we need it?

Buying the houses and demolishing would be ridiculously expensive and controversial. Apart from the cost being prohibitive, one can imagine some owners refusing to sell, and conservationists fighting the demolition of Victorian/Edwardian buildings.

Frankly, the net capacity increase seems unlikely to be worth the effort. We have a 27K capacity; Leicester, a club which probably reflects what we’d look like if we were much more successful, has an average attendance around 31K. I don’t think we’d need much over 27K if we got promoted. And Bournemouth/Brentford are coping without the capacity we have.

It would be physically possible to build a bigger Atyeo stand by using the car park but it’s extremely unlikely to win planning permission. The larger stand would be closer to the houses and much higher greatly affecting light. A two tier Atyeo has been suggested numerous times but has never progressed because of this. 

38 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Could just stick a second tier on the south stand for those who like the idea of increasing capacity.

See above. Ignoring the construction and access problems for spectators a second tier would never get planning permission 

I can’t understand why there is this obsession with increasing capacity, particularly as SL has said it’s not needed. There are plenty of small clubs who’ve made it to the Premier League with smaller grounds than City:

Bournmouth - approx 11k

Brentford - approx 17k

Burnley - approx 22k

Huddersfield - approx 24k

Swansea - approx 21k

Watford - approx 22k

[phantom]

20 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Come on, you can't say that and then just walk off!

There has to be some Yank with more money than sense who's interested in owning a soccerball franchise in the wild west country.

Difficult to say too much because of NDA's etc, but the potential size of the ground and training ground has been highlighted as a potential issue

I know there are others on here that know more, they may be able to go into more details?

[Merrick's Marvels]

2 minutes ago, phantom said:

Difficult to say too much because of NDA's etc, but the potential size of the ground and training ground has been highlighted as a potential issue

I know there are others on here that know more, they may be able to go into more details?

Personally, I'd have thought the complexity of dis-entangling Bristol City FC from Bristol Sport would be far more off-putting

Edited July 14, 2022 by Merrick's Marvels

[CyderInACan]

54 minutes ago, Wolf Island said:

Culvert 

No need for that sort of language! 

[Wiltshire robin]

1 hour ago, nebristolred said:

How come? How would you get more seats into the same height stand, without a lower rake? What advances in engineering would overcome that?

Plenty of room between the atyeo and the lansdown/Dolman which would have seats added if it was joined like the south stand 

[Bristol Rob]

6 minutes ago, Wiltshire robin said:

Plenty of room between the atyeo and the lansdown/Dolman which would have seats added if it was joined like the south stand 

You would need to leave gaps/spaces big enough for emergency vehicles and HGVs so you could stage concerts.

[Sleepy1968]

1 hour ago, Wolf Island said:

They are apparently nearing the end of their life. 

Are they? I've heard nothing about this and I go past Nelson Mandela House most days have yet to see a 'save our flats' placard, and there's never been anything on this in the local 'newspaper'. Maybe this is a case of idle gossip now being taken as pseudo fact? Does anyone have any concrete info on this becasue I'd really like a Dolman Mark II, especially as the bloke that sits behind me is about 6'5".

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, pongo88 said:

It would be physically possible to build a bigger Atyeo stand by using the car park but it’s extremely unlikely to win planning permission.

The larger stand would be closer to the houses and much higher greatly affecting light. A two tier Atyeo has been suggested numerous times but has never progressed because of this. 

See above. Ignoring the construction and access problems for spectators a second tier would never get planning permission 

I can’t understand why there is this obsession with increasing capacity, particularly as SL has said it’s not needed. There are plenty of small clubs who’ve made it to the Premier League with smaller grounds than City:

Bournmouth - approx 11k

Brentford - approx 17k

Burnley - approx 22k

Huddersfield - approx 24k

Swansea - approx 21k

Watford - approx 22k

 

The discussion over an increased capacity is predicated and there being a need, i.e. we're in the Prem and there's a need for extra capacity. So, yes, all very hypothetical but it's not an obsession with increasing for increasing's sake. (And it beats checking the transfer forum every 5 minutes for tenuous links to players we've never heard of and will never sign.)

As for the teams you list - they're all yo-yos (if only, of course!). The discussion we're having, as stated, is predicated on City enjoying a sustained spell in the Premier League, at which point, it's generally agreed, 25,000 seats for home fans would not satisfy demand - we're not the other bloody lot, revelling in how many fans they've got outside grounds - why wouldn't we want as many City fans as possible attending games if we became an established top flight team?

Pigs might fly but worth debating during the slow summer months 

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Merrick's Marvels

[The Bard]

15 hours ago, pillred said:

Would it not be possible to build a mirror image of the Lansdown where the Dolman stand is now that would boost capacity to around 33,000 plus a bit of development on the Atyeo sides we could be looking at 35,000 if we ever needed to if we ever went up and looked like sustaining it by using the TV money.

Don't know if you've noticed but there's a block of 62 flats close to the Dolman. All the tenants are at least 50, some have been there for 40/50 years.

Good luck getting them all moved, the block demolished etc so that we can get a theoretical extra 5,000 supporters in to watch us dominate European football etc.

 

[bcfc01]

39 minutes ago, Wiltshire robin said:

Plenty of room between the atyeo and the lansdown/Dolman which would have seats added if it was joined like the south stand 

Not that easy.

The Atyeo stand is not now symmetrical with the pitch. To fill in the end at the Dolman side would mean a realignment of the Atyeo stand.

[Wiltshire robin]

1 minute ago, bcfc01 said:

Not that easy.

The Atyeo stand is not now symmetrical with the pitch. To fill in the end at the Dolman side would mean a realignment of the Atyeo stand.

I meant if they knocked the atyeo down and started from scratch 

[bcfc01]

23 minutes ago, Wiltshire robin said:

I meant if they knocked the atyeo down and started from scratch 

Minimum £15m.

For maybe 2k extra seats ?

[pillred]

48 minutes ago, The Bard said:

Don't know if you've noticed but there's a block of 62 flats close to the Dolman. All the tenants are at least 50, some have been there for 40/50 years.

Good luck getting them all moved, the block demolished etc so that we can get a theoretical extra 5,000 supporters in to watch us dominate European football etc.

 

I'm not sure the actual footprint of the Dolman is that much smaller than the Lansdown, I was thinking more higher, somebody may be able to tell us but having been in both stands they don't seem that different width wise.

[Wiltshire robin]

7 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Minimum £15m.

For maybe 2k extra seats ?

You’re right but it’s not just the extra seats it’s basically finishing the stadium and having a stand that doesn’t look really out of place compared to the rest 

[pillred]

4 hours ago, frenchred said:

um, why do we need a bigger ground?

we never sell out now, if we got to the prem, day trippers and casual fans would top up our attendances to full probably but once in the premier attendances become pretty immaterial in the big scheme of things and when the inevitable relegation comes a bigger ground would look stupid half filled!

That's a rather pessimistic outlook if you don't mind me saying.

[beaverface]

2 hours ago, phantom said:

Do you honestly think that every single home owner will sell to Bristol Sport?

Simply never going to happen - it was a rumour many years ago that the club were buying houses, they weren't and won't be

You may be surprised as to what has been happening then

I'm not talking necessarily about the here and now, but looking to the future and having a long term plan.

The club should consider buying the houses under a proxy owner IMO and then renting them until such a time as they see fit.

Ultimately, the owners of the houses wont last forever, they'll move on, pass on, get moved into retirement homes, passed down to relatives who want to sell etc..

There's also the fact that club could potentially seek a compulsory order for purchasing the last one or two houses? I don't know the legalities of that, but it could be an option.

My point of view is that we should be playing the long game. What I've read on this thread is right, we don't need over 27,000 seats at the moment, but if we hit the Premier league, we may do, especially if we're there for the long haul.

I don't buy this Bournemouth model where clubs can get by on the financial rewards of being in the top division. I go to football to be entertained, and the bigger the stadium and the more fans, it all adds up to a better experience in my eyes. I don't think to myself, oh I'm sat in a 11,000 seat capacity Bournemouth stadium, but I'm enjoying myself because the club is making money through sponsorship - I want the buzz of a big crowd and atmosphere.

[GrahamC]

38 minutes ago, pillred said:

That's a rather pessimistic outlook if you don't mind me saying.

Look at his post history, this is super optimistic by usual standards.

[GrahamC]

5 hours ago, beaverface said:

Talk of buying the houses for £15million is nothing compared to the parachute payments that relegated clubs get from the premier league, circa ~£90million.

We wouldn't need to redevelop the Atyeo unless we make it to the Premier league - and if we did, I'd like us to follow the model that Burnley did when they first made it to premier, and bank the money for club infrastructure rather than blow the money on players. If we get relegated, so be it, but at least the long term plan is in place then.

Longer term, the Atyeo needs to done properly, and that includes pulling down the houses to build as big as possible (a proper large single tiered identifiable home end).

The Dolman and\or flats are coming close to the end of their lifespan. Maybe a deal could be done for the flats to be relocated as affordable homes\council tenants on the housing project that Steve Lansdown is building in Long Ashton to enable the Dolman to be rebuilt bigger (and in a different style to the Lansdown), and maybe a style that doesn't have roof supports preventing wrap around tiers.

Finally, I thought the South Stand was built with expansion in mind, but they dropped the prospect of executive boxes and an internal mezzanine floor at the last minute, but I thought it was designed with those in mind. And Ultimately, I believe it's only a handful of houses in Raynes road preventing us expanding the South Stand a lot higher and bigger.

 

This is a brilliant argument if we lived in China but as we live somewhere that house owners are (rightly) entitled to tell someone who wants to buy their property to eff off if they don’t want to sell, (with very few exceptions, like HS2) it is just fantasy stuff.

I’m convinced those who post this tripe live absolutely nowhere near the ground & only visit the area once a fortnight.

Ashton & Southville has in recent years gentrified beyond belief, (I could weep when I think of the fortune my late Grandparents could have made on their house in Truro Rd) & these people are not going to sell & even if a couple of them did, once a few house owners in crucial properties say no, we’re ******.

[beaverface]

39 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

This is a brilliant argument if we lived in China but as we live somewhere that house owners are (rightly) entitled to tell someone who wants to buy their property to eff off if they don’t want to sell, (with very few exceptions, like HS2) it is just fantasy stuff.

I’m convinced those who post this tripe live absolutely nowhere near the ground & only visit the area once a fortnight.

Ashton & Southville has in recent years gentrified beyond belief, (I could weep when I think of the fortune my late Grandparents could have made on their house in Truro Rd) & these people are not going to sell & even if a couple of them did, once a few house owners in crucial properties say no, we’re ******.

...and do you know the irony? I wouldn't be happy to move if that happened to my house either!! (but I would have a price, and I wouldn't live forever either)

[Rich]

I'm speaking from memory here regarding the Atyeo stand but, we had advisors within the club who seemed scared of upsetting the relationship that the club had with the planning department, I'd had meetings with them re boxes in the Dolman. As a result of that fear, the Atyeo stand was not built to it's possible height, or depth in proximity to the houses while still meeting planning guidance. So in current planning laws it could be rebuilt mirroring the South Stand.

As far as the Dolman is concerned, it also could be built higher and closer to the existing flats. There is a space of nearly 4mts to the rear which could be built with an overhanging rake. This would allow emergency vehicles access along the rear of the stand, something required by law, as there's no access to parts of the ground from all sides.

The lower Dolman is a hotchpotch of gangways, so a completely new stand would improve that and have a capacity increased to about 10k.

So between those two increases we'd possibly add another 5k seats. Not needed currently but, I'm of the belief and more positive in my thoughts that, we could be a more successful club, with a much larger support base and we must aim higher. There's absolutely no reason why we couldn't compete with the majority of premiership clubs. Why think otherwise?

[The Bard]

2 hours ago, beaverface said:

I'm not talking necessarily about the here and now, but looking to the future and having a long term plan.

The club should consider buying the houses under a proxy owner IMO and then renting them until such a time as they see fit.

Ultimately, the owners of the houses wont last forever, they'll move on, pass on, get moved into retirement homes, passed down to relatives who want to sell etc..

There's also the fact that club could potentially seek a compulsory order for purchasing the last one or two houses? I don't know the legalities of that, but it could be an option.

My point of view is that we should be playing the long game. What I've read on this thread is right, we don't need over 27,000 seats at the moment, but if we hit the Premier league, we may do, especially if we're there for the long haul.

I don't buy this Bournemouth model where clubs can get by on the financial rewards of being in the top division. I go to football to be entertained, and the bigger the stadium and the more fans, it all adds up to a better experience in my eyes. I don't think to myself, oh I'm sat in a 11,000 seat capacity Bournemouth stadium, but I'm enjoying myself because the club is making money through sponsorship - I want the buzz of a big crowd and atmosphere.

Again, a property on Raynes Road adjoining the ground was on the market for £575k recently.  

So, the theory goes that in order for us to progress and push capacity towards 40,000, our owner needs to buy the following:-

• 18 houses on Ashton Road.
• 10 on Raynes Road

Combined cost at current prices would be £18 million without allowing for the enormous premium that would have to be paid as, over the decades the club moved towards the point of owning all of them.  Not to mention the fact that some people would, quite rightly, refuse to sell as is their fundamental right.

Southbow House needs to be demolished and the 60+ tenants moved elsewhere.  As everyone knows there is ample available social housing at the moment and it's not as if millions were recently spent on them or, that EE are going to stick a 5G mast on the roof.  Good luck persuading any of the residents to move.  Why should they?  They're in one of the best Council blocks in Bristol.

All of this to increase our capacity when we could possibly nudge capacity up to 30,000 without acting like total c***s. 

There is more chance of me having a 3some with Beyonce and Emilia Clarke.

 

 

[The Bard]

What will happen is the Dolman and Atyeo will be redeveloped in 5 to 10 years time.  This will result in an increase in capacity of 2 to 3k due to filling the corner and having rail seating/terracing.

[beaverface]

2 hours ago, The Bard said:

Again, a property on Raynes Road adjoining the ground was on the market for £575k recently.  

So, the theory goes that in order for us to progress and push capacity towards 40,000, our owner needs to buy the following:-

• 18 houses on Ashton Road.
• 10 on Raynes Road

Combined cost at current prices would be £18 million without allowing for the enormous premium that would have to be paid as, over the decades the club moved towards the point of owning all of them.  Not to mention the fact that some people would, quite rightly, refuse to sell as is their fundamental right.

Southbow House needs to be demolished and the 60+ tenants moved elsewhere.  As everyone knows there is ample available social housing at the moment and it's not as if millions were recently spent on them or, that EE are going to stick a 5G mast on the roof.  Good luck persuading any of the residents to move.  Why should they?  They're in one of the best Council blocks in Bristol.

All of this to increase our capacity when we could possibly nudge capacity up to 30,000 without acting like total c***s. 

There is more chance of me having a 3some with Beyonce and Emilia Clarke.

 

 

As I previously mentioned, I'd rather spent £18m of the £90m parachute payments in buying infrastructure for the long term. Of course this approach relies on us getting to the premier and not spunking loads of money on second rate Premier players.

With regards to the flats, it's the long game. No one is saying it'll happen straight away, patience and agreement with the council could be the answer. 

To me it's all about maximising as much as possible rather than be defeatist and say it can't be done.

I'd rather try and fail rather than not try at all. I don't wanna be like our neighbours and just settle for bring one place higher than than us. I want us to be the very best we possibly can.

[garlicbread]

There's no point in developing the ground, it's just been developed, and never full

This myth that SL is trying to buy the houses is up there with the Zoo parking attendant...there are often for sale signs outside those hoses behind the Atyeo

 

 

 

[downendcity]

9 minutes ago, garlicbread said:

There's no point in developing the ground, it's just been developed, and never full

This myth that SL is trying to buy the houses is up there with the Zoo parking attendant...there are often for sale signs outside those hoses behind the Atyeo

 

Must have been a fire sale!