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6 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Totally agree with this. 

Pato - the usual whipping boy of the forum. He was not that bad today - set up the goal and involved in a few moves. He can’t seem to play a full 90 minutes though 

Agree, he's a good number 10 and about at the same level we are at the moment. Not great but by no means not bad, build a team around our strengths and he could be a match winner for us and if not, replace him during the match..

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He popped up with an assist but a passenger for most of the game and is rarely in a position to make a tackle (Shock). Holden needs to weigh up whether that sort of contribution is enough. It wasn't for Eliasson. 

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7 minutes ago, M.D said:

Agree, he's a good number 10 and about at the same level we are at the moment. Not great but by no means not bad, build a team around our strengths and he could be a match winner for us and if not, replace him during the match..

Love to see him playing the number 10 role if we were in the 2nd div. Been with us for years never been good enough, never will!!!

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18 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I am sure people can see a player at one level and judge whether they will be good at a level above.

It's why Toney was signed for such big money by Brentford. Are those attributes suited to the championship is the question.

Walsh had a good season at Coventry granted- he came here and to a large degree wasn’t picked by Johnson and sent out on loan. It’s a huge ask for people to expect Walsh to come back and be the answer 

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32 minutes ago, Kibs said:

He popped up with an assist but a passenger for most of the game and is rarely in a position to make a tackle (Shock). Holden needs to weigh up whether that sort of contribution is enough. It wasn't for Eliasson

Exactly this, but whilst other players have been rotated he keeps being picked come what may - Holden it seems just can't see it. I'm confident we would have done so much better with Nagy, Massengo & Bakinson starting. 

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1 minute ago, JonDolman said:

I think it seems Walsh has improved a lot since being at Coventry. Even Coventry fans were not sure of him at first.

I think he looked like he had the natural ability for us before, but just needed more game time somewhere. And with his loan he would have learnt a lot, and looks like he has bulked up a bit too. 

His ability on the ball was clear even from the bits for us before he went out on loan. And he always seemed to want the ball in tight spaces, and was aggressive to try and win it back too. Passing off either foot was already obvious but other parts he needed to go away and work on.

If he is a better version of the player we had before then I am quite excited by that.

Your last point is the most important ‘if’ and that is the unknown. What I think is certain is when he returns he will be in our squad / first 11

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4 hours ago, JonDolman said:

I will contradict myself now and say I have that feeling as well!

I get the feeling (like Joe Morrell) that he wants out. But if that is not the case then I think he will be getting game time when back.

Not sure the Morrell wanted out, at leas not until Holden made it clear he wasn't in his first team plans. And when you think he was behind a 35 year old signed on a short contract this year you can understand it. I am starting to worry about those contract talks, Fam and Walsh both coming along nicely we keep hearing, have they signed? No !

I saw Walsh a couple of time on TV for Cov, read some bits and write ups, that along with what I saw in his cameos gave me hope. I loved to see him play head up, looking forward and able to play with both feet. He has vision too and a good strike, there is absolutely no reason to think he won't be good if he ever gets fit. Of course not guaranteed , but a better chance than many. 

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5 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

Gut feeling but I’m not sure we will see much of him in a City shirt at all.

 

My gut feeling was he never wanted to come back from Coventry. They had no money to buy him. Wouldn't be surprised if he goes back there once he is able to negotiate a free transfer. The way LJ messed him about I don't think he wants to be here. DH has been talking him up which may be an attempt to turn it round which is falling on deaf ears. 

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16 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

My gut feeling was he never wanted to come back from Coventry. They had no money to buy him. Wouldn't be surprised if he goes back there once he is able to negotiate a free transfer. The way LJ messed him about I don't think he wants to be here. DH has been talking him up which may be an attempt to turn it round which is falling on deaf ears. 

Wouldn’t disagree with any of that

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23 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

My gut feeling was he never wanted to come back from Coventry. They had no money to buy him. Wouldn't be surprised if he goes back there once he is able to negotiate a free transfer. The way LJ messed him about I don't think he wants to be here. DH has been talking him up which may be an attempt to turn it round which is falling on deaf ears. 

That would be so bizarre. Especially if it was an LJ issue, yet DH also can't make any headway.

I remember him being bought (and not for an insignificant amount for us!) and touted as ready for the first team immediately. I'm pretty sure he even came on in the second half v Man City up at the Etihad almost immediately afterwards.

For him to leave on a free 2 or 3 years later to another Championship team would seem to indicate something has gone seriously wrong somewhere.

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9 hours ago, robin_unreliant said:

My gut feeling was he never wanted to come back from Coventry. They had no money to buy him. Wouldn't be surprised if he goes back there once he is able to negotiate a free transfer. The way LJ messed him about I don't think he wants to be here. DH has been talking him up which may be an attempt to turn it round which is falling on deaf ears. 

They signed Gustavo Hamer to replace him, he cost them £1m so they clearly did have the money.

I agree though that something does not seem right here at all. I think too many are getting hung up about a comment Holden made about him being important to us, as he also said something very similar about Morrell, then sold him. I also have my doubts Morrell was ever injured, as I think it was always the case he was moving on once we signed Williams & Brunt.

I think Walsh is currently unavailable, but as has been shown by his contract saga, whether he would rather be here or at Coventry is far less clear, I think.

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I said this in the Palmer thread & think it should go in here. 

I think it's a bit of a myth that Paterson has done exceptionally well since coming back from Derby. 

He did well for 2/3 games after coming back, then went quiet and was even out of the team again iirc. 

Then when the season restarted again he did well for a couple of games, (Even though at Blackburn away he was shite but scored) 

Then this season he's started reasonably well, but the past few games he's been poor again. 

So this makes me wonder, is Paterson a player you need to leave out for a few games at a time, to get a tune from him for the 2/3 after you do so. He seems to do well after a break. 

Perhaps thats the way to have success with Pato. The first game he really doesn't perform, you leave him out rather than letting that 1 turn into 4/5 before dropping him.

That's the reason I'd have kept Palmer. I worry certain players get too comfortable with their place in the team

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18 hours ago, daored said:

 It’s a huge ask for people to expect Walsh to come back and be the answer 

Agree, but let's give him a minimum 6 match run in the side and that should determine whether his 2nd half appearance against Stoke now 2 years ago [!] was a one off.

I don't think he'll sign if he isn't given a chance and might not anyway but you can be sure that Coventry will be in for him in the summer if he doesn't.

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1 hour ago, Carey 6 said:

 

I said this in the Palmer thread & think it should go in here. 

I think it's a bit of a myth that Paterson has done exceptionally well since coming back from Derby. 

He did well for 2/3 games after coming back, then went quiet and was even out of the team again iirc. 

Then when the season restarted again he did well for a couple of games, (Even though at Blackburn away he was shite but scored) 

Then this season he's started reasonably well, but the past few games he's been poor again. 

So this makes me wonder, is Paterson a player you need to leave out for a few games at a time, to get a tune from him for the 2/3 after you do so. He seems to do well after a break. 

Perhaps thats the way to have success with Pato. The first game he really doesn't perform, you leave him out rather than letting that 1 turn into 4/5 before dropping him.

That's the reason I'd have kept Palmer. I worry certain players get too comfortable with their place in the team

Just make sure you pick the right games to play him and the right ones to leave him out ???

1 hour ago, headhunter said:

Agree, but let's give him a minimum 6 match run in the side and that should determine whether his 2nd half appearance against Stoke now 2 years ago [!] was a one off.

I don't think he'll sign if he isn't given a chance and might not anyway but you can be sure that Coventry will be in for him in the summer if he doesn't.

Yep, really need to judge him in a City shirt.

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20 hours ago, When the river runs said:

He set up our goal

Issue is river, is that he's playing pretty mediocre or poorly 90% of matches and getting a free pass as he grabs a goal or an assist.

Pato on form is good. Issue being thats about every 1 in 8 games.

This is less of issue in a wide area as he'd get some support from fullback, in theory, but in the middle his basic decision making is crap at best, runs into blind avenues consistently, and just doesn't have the positional sense to play a central role, which kets face it, he isn't a centre mid.

We've had two managers who have blindly kept faith with him, when he's consistently not been good enough at this level. The big issue is that Pato doesn't take the responsibility that came with the role, he doesn't look to get involved  once we get pressed, that's the big reason he goes missing.

At least if Nagy were in his role, the latter knows how to rotate and drop to keep the tempo in midfield, we know he's capable of it, Fulham and QPR last season he was sublime. The big issue we have is that our wing backs have been crap.

If I could, with our current crop available, pick a team, I would just go;

Bentley, Vyner, Moore, Kalas, Hunt, Bakinson, Massengo, Nagy, O'Dowda, Semenyo, Martin.

Ultimately, we may just need to switch to 4atb, if our defence keeps underperforming. We need Williams and Walsh back also.

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19 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

Gut feeling but I’m not sure we will see much of him in a City shirt at all.

 

I wouldn't dismiss gut feelings at all, in fact it's strange how often they turn out to be right.

Interested to know the cause of yours (if there is one!) in Walsh's case Shelts.

Is it his injury being much worse than they are letting on?

Length of time to sign a contract? ( understandable imo. if he was delaying due to excessive midfield competition meaning he felt it unlikely he'd get the opportunity to make his mark here, but the path looks clearer now) If it's the contract situation, do you feel the same about Paterson - also OOC in the Summer and not signed up?

Personal fall out with DH?

DH doesn't actually rate him despite the fine words?

You simply don't think he's good enough?

I also have a gut feeling about Walsh - that, given a proper run in the team in his best position he will very likely shine, become a mainstay of a more exciting and creative midfield, and go on to be a very saleable asset in a year/18 months.

 

 

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14 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

Not sure the Morrell wanted out, at leas not until Holden made it clear he wasn't in his first team plans. And when you think he was behind a 35 year old signed on a short contract this year you can understand it. I am starting to worry about those contract talks, Fam and Walsh both coming along nicely we keep hearing, have they signed? No !

I saw Walsh a couple of time on TV for Cov, read some bits and write ups, that along with what I saw in his cameos gave me hope. I loved to see him play head up, looking forward and able to play with both feet. He has vision too and a good strike, there is absolutely no reason to think he won't be good if he ever gets fit. Of course not guaranteed , but a better chance than many. 

Morrell wanted more first team football than Holden could guarantee, but I understand he was in dean’s first team squad plans.  That said, I see that Joe has already lost his place in the Luton starting XI.

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20 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I wouldn't dismiss gut feelings at all, in fact it's strange how often they turn out to be right.

Interested to know the cause of yours (if there is one!) in Walsh's case Shelts.

Is it his injury being much worse than they are letting on?

Length of time to sign a contract? ( understandable imo. if he was delaying due to excessive midfield competition meaning he felt it unlikely he'd get the opportunity to make his mark here, but the path looks clearer now) If it's the contract situation, do you feel the same about Paterson - also OOC in the Summer and not signed up?

Personal fall out with DH?

DH doesn't actually rate him despite the fine words?

You simply don't think he's good enough?

I also have a gut feeling about Walsh - that, given a proper run in the team in his best position he will very likely shine, become a mainstay of a more exciting and creative midfield, and go on to be a very saleable asset in a year/18 months.

 

 

Certainly wouldn't claim he's not good enough Nogs - impossible to make a substantial opinion as we havn't seen him for either us or another at this level

We are limited what we've seen of him but Clear technical ability , passing ability - he's a 'footballer' for sure

Thought he shouted and demanded the ball a lot in that Norwich start and then kept getting robbed or gave ball away - maybe trying to hard to impress and make  statement

His stature does mean he's going to have to be right on his game to flourish in Championship , though to be fair he looks to like a tackle  and certainly appears to believe in himself

And , he clearly had a decent season with Coventry and certainly deserves a chance (If he wants it here)

 

My gut feeling is only that Nogs , a gut feeling with the few and little clues we have

Have we ever heard anything at all from Walsh himself ?

Not that I can ever recall

 

 

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1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Morrell wanted more first team football than Holden could guarantee, but I understand he was in dean’s first team squad plans.  That said, I see that Joe has already lost his place in the Luton starting XI.

Holden may SAY that, but bringing in a 35 year old on , what £15k a week, suggests otherwise. That he couldn't make our bench but started games for Wales also tells a story. 

Not sure what's happening at Luton. Looks like he had a couple of Sub appearances then started against Sheff W, where they won. He can't have done that badly as he wasn't subbed until added time, then un used Sub last 2 games. Who know what that means. 

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On 31/10/2020 at 14:53, M.D said:

He's a number 10, not really a winger and certainty not a central midfielder.

If we are going to persist with a 3-5-2 then we need to change the midfield 3 and play him in front of 2 proper central midfielders.. 

we can all see this but deano cant or wont. if you play pato, yes he can get about the pitch but thats not really his game. If you are going to pick him, play 2 dedicated midfielders with him,,, but not odowda!! What on earth holden was thinking playing a decent norwich team with those 2 In midfield, but the outcome wasnt hard to predict.

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16 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

we can all see this but deano cant or wont. if you play pato, yes he can get about the pitch but thats not really his game. If you are going to pick him, play 2 dedicated midfielders with him,,, but not odowda!! What on earth holden was thinking playing a decent norwich team with those 2 In midfield, but the outcome wasnt hard to predict.

I think that’s my concern too.  Too often (not always) 5-10 yards away from the man - what I call “passive marking”....then they have to work hard to close down....but the opponent already has head up and plays the ball easily and is thinking about their next move.  They don’t influence the man they’re meant to be marking.  I think we get away with one of them, not both....take your pick.

You have to be tighter initially, then you can steal off a poor touch, or get a tackle in, or even intercept.

Callum was good with the ball yesterday....but the combination of him and Pato, not helped by an ineffective Brunt who neither protected the back 3 or got on the ball meant a hard afternoon for City.

Brunt didn’t “lead” the midfield yesterday.  So that CM3 didn’t work.  The two of them with Bakinson on Wednesday was fine first half, but over-run in the second half.  I’m not saying it’s their fault, just highlighting that certain combinations are better or worse than others.

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20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think that’s my concern too.  Too often (not always) 5-10 yards away from the man - what I call “passive marking”....then they have to work hard to close down....but the opponent already has head up and plays the ball easily and is thinking about their next move.  They don’t influence the man they’re meant to be marking.  I think we get away with one of them, not both....take your pick.

You have to be tighter initially, then you can steal off a poor touch, or get a tackle in, or even intercept.

Callum was good with the ball yesterday....but the combination of him and Pato, not helped by an ineffective Brunt who neither protected the back 3 or got on the ball meant a hard afternoon for City.

Brunt didn’t “lead” the midfield yesterday.  So that CM3 didn’t work.  The two of them with Bakinson on Wednesday was fine first half, but over-run in the second half.  I’m not saying it’s their fault, just highlighting that certain combinations are better or worse than others.

Yes, with weimann on he will put some aggression in to closing down the midfield, but holden surely can see theres an issue with the midfield as it is

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