brad blit Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Is it now time Holden ditches the 352 and looks at 433 as a viable option? With a lack of centre back/right back options, it would enable us to look more solid from the back and give us a more competitive looking midfield 3 pushing Patto/COD/Semenyo/Wells to support Martin/Diedhiou as main striker. Bentley Hunt. Kalas/Baker TM/Vyner. JD Mass/Walsh/Williams/Brunt/Nagy/Bakk COD/Patto Wells/Semenyo Martin/Diedhiou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendyredredrobin Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Since none of our strikers look likely to hit the side of a house from 2 metres, we may just as well dispense with them and play a 5 5 formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kibs Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 I’d be happy to play 3-5-2, but it’s a myth. We play with 5 defenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse With No Name Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Dasilva or Rowe and Hunt wing backs? To be honest that is hilarious. It always has been 5 3 2 . Leaves us overun in midfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Robin Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, The Horse With No Name said: Dasilva or Rowe and Hunt wing backs? To be honest that is hilarious. It always has been 5 3 2 . Leaves us overun in midfield. Yep..they are not. I think Dasilva would be better as a out and right winger....his defensive positioning is dire......out of position so many times and for two goals today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 He either sticks with it but seriously thinks about the make-up of the front 5, or he changes to a back 4 system. I really do not want us to go 442 unless it’s a very narrow system. We will end up with the middle two getting exposed. If he wants a front two, then some form of 4132 / 4312. The 4132 allows a the CM to sit in and still allows full-backs forward. But as I say it’s down to personnel. If we pick the same starting eleven and defend as bad as we did today, you can pick whatever formation you want...it won’t make a blind bit of difference. Our 3 CBs cost us today. We didn’t always pressure the passer, but it was as if Pukki was the invisible man. That was the thing that made me angry. Pukki is a brilliant mover at this level. But just effin’ mark him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFCGav Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Until we have Bakes or Mawson back I think a back 4 is necessary. Can’t play 3 centre halves every game when you only have 3 fit centre halves! Against Hudds I’d go 4312: Bentley: Hunt, Kalas, Vyner, Dasilva: Bakinson, COD, Nagy: Martin: Semenyo, Fam. I realise Nagy is unlikely but that’s what I’d do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Think with the personnel available we have to go to a back four now until the international break. For me that means Rowe in at LB because I don’t rate Dasilva defensively at all. In the middle Moore could probably do with a break now so it has to be Kalas & Vyner. No other option but Hunt at RB. Time to freshen it up in midfield with Bakinson in front of the back four & Nagy in alongside him, though doubt very much the latter will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, GrahamC said: Think with the personnel available we have to go to a back four now until the international break. For me that means Rowe in at LB because I don’t rate Dasilva defensively at all. In the middle Moore could probably do with a break now so it has to be Kalas & Vyner. No other option but Hunt at RB. Time to freshen it up in midfield with Bakinson in front of the back four & Nagy in alongside him, though doubt very much the latter will happen. As decent as Brunt was last week v Swansea he was very poor today. Big decisions for Dean. There has to be some significant questions and learnings from the past two games, even if it’s recognition that the better sides need a different approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse With No Name Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 10 minutes ago, BCFCGav said: Until we have Bakes or Mawson back I think a back 4 is necessary. Can’t play 3 centre halves every game when you only have 3 fit centre halves! Against Hudds I’d go 4312: Bentley: Hunt, Kalas, Vyner, Dasilva: Bakinson, COD, Nagy: Martin: Semenyo, Fam. I realise Nagy is unlikely but that’s what I’d do. I posted this 2 or 3 games ago and got slaughtered on here. We just dont have the personnel to play 3 5 2, at least not with the injury situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Davefevs said: As decent as Brunt was last week v Swansea he was very poor today. Big decisions for Dean. There has to be some significant questions and learnings from the past two games, even if it’s recognition that the better sides need a different approach. For me whilst there has been a huge focus on the invisible pair of Joe Williams & Liam Walsh, we have still had a current international midfielder & lad who played over half our games last season at 18 available to us throughout & neither of them have had any time on the pitch at all. Fair enough if the results or performances were like the first 4, but they haven’t been. Brunt does look to be an odd signing, we still have masses of midfielders, he is 36 in December & he isn’t exactly versatile, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, GrahamC said: For me whilst there has been a huge focus on the invisible pair of Joe Williams & Liam Walsh, we have still had a current international midfielder & lad who played over half our games last season at 18 available to us throughout & neither of them have had any time on the pitch at all. Fair enough if the results or performances were like the first 4, but they haven’t been. Brunt does look to be an odd signing, we still have masses of midfielders, he is 36 in December & he isn’t exactly versatile, either. I think it’s criminal that in the past 2 games neither Nagy or Massengo saw action of any sort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Red Hat Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 9 minutes ago, JonDolman said: Today there is no doubt we deserved to lose that game. That's true based on the defending of the 3 goals. But why didn't Dean change it in the first half? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, Davefevs said: I think it’s criminal that in the past 2 games neither Nagy or Massengo saw action of any sort. So what does that tell us? A number of us have said it suggested Dean doesn't rate them if they can't get minutes when we are playing midfielders who aren't midfielders and a 36 year old well off the pace. Fwiw I suspect we would have liked to offload at least one of them but there were no takers. The selections for the next 2 games will be very revealing I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor10 Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 No problem with 3-5-2 if you have the personnel to do it. I applaud DH for selecting a system and sticking with it but he’s putting square pegs in round holes at present. If he wants to play 3-5-2 fine but you can’t play the likes of Paterson, O’Dolittle & Weimann in central midfield. All that will happen is when we play half decent sides we will get out played on every level. If he wants to persist with this system I think he needs to play 2 of either Bakinson, Brunt, Nagy or HNM with Paterson until Williams/Walsh return. I also don’t think the back 5 is strong enough with the current players we have to take us forward, or for this system to be effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassomylord Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 13 minutes ago, Davefevs said: I think it’s criminal that in the past 2 games neither Nagy or Massengo saw action of any sort. Well and truly out of favour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 3, 2020 Report Share Posted November 3, 2020 On 31/10/2020 at 16:21, The Horse With No Name said: Dasilva or Rowe and Hunt wing backs? To be honest that is hilarious. It always has been 5 3 2 . Leaves us overun in midfield. Rowe certainly isn't, the others I'm less sure on- Hunt has had his attacking moments e.g., DaSilva is young and his best days are ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 3, 2020 Report Share Posted November 3, 2020 That aside, I'm leaning towards 4-3-3 but the issue even with decent wing backs is that 3-5-2 vs say 4-3-3- or even 3-4-3/3-4-2-1 can quite easily see the wing backs pinned back, isolated and then problems in the middle- the 2 v 1 can be quite difficult to break out of! 4-3-3 is obvious how overloads happen but... 3-4-3 vs 3-5-2. Wide forward and Wing back/full back combine- wingbacks combine, big outlet lost. If one of the back 3 is ballplaying and can comfortably step into CM, you even lose the theoretical numerical advantage there. 3-4-2-1 vs 3-5-2- as above but probably even more pronounced, with the right personnel in the 3-4-2-1- 3-4-3 and 3-4-2-1 can be quite interchangeable too. Duel like this: Wing Backs pinned back by wide forward and wingback- quite often can be 1-0 to 3-4-3/3-5-2- not in terms of scoreline though that may follow but tactical duel I mean. Your 2 forwards vs 3 CBs- ah spare man, maybe an advantage! 1-1? Plus your extra man in CM can drag someone out of position for a 3 v 2 in CM. Definitely evening up the score...but... Said spare man is a ball playing CB, steps into CM- suddenly that can negate the 3-2 advantage there while still leaving your attacking threat either pinned back or otherwise nullified and the dilemma of a spare man at the back is gone as it's 2 v 2. 3-5-2 looks good on paper but- I wonder if were all fit, a nice variant might have been the 3-4-3/3-4-2-1 with: Bentley Moore Kalas Mawson Hunt Bakinson Nagy DaSilva Weimann Paterson Martin When I say fit, I'm presupposing at this stage that Walsh and Williams are not yet fit. Plus that (regrettably) Morrell sold. Clearly the two bolded are now injured so this wrecks it a bit... Wells could easily slot in for Martin, Diedhiou could also fill the role- this wouldn't be first choice but for some games. Now you have Weimann able to help Hunt and Paterson able to help DaSilva- both in an attacking sense and in more conservative phases- they are not wingers, more wide midfielders, roles that I believe they can play- yet in other phases it can slot into 3-4-1-2 and 3-5-2, with Paterson dropping back and Weimann partnering Martin. Why not Diedhiou, Semenyo or Wells- because they don't have the tactical versatility to pull wider and central in the same way- not always about the best players but the best structure, shape, cohesion. This also has the duel effect of pinning their wing backs or their attacking wide players/full backs- one of them anyway back as they risk 2 v 1, yet can negate their advantage in CM- even more so if a ballcarrying CB- say Mawson- steps up into CM every now and then, we can see it switch in-game to: Bentley Hunt Moore Kalas DaSilva Mawson Bakinson Weimann Nagy Paterson Martin Also: Bentley Hunt Moore Kalas DaSilva Bakinson Mawson Nagy Paterson Weimann Martin Then again: Bentley Moore Kalas Mawson Hunt Bakinson Nagy DaSilva Paterson Weimann Martin Will certainly concede that the bit that looks suspect there is the bolded bit- but the idea being that someone would step up into CM in phases, realistically it'd be him or Moore at these times- the positioning in that sense may have needed rejigging but still...it'll be quite a bit harder now with the injuries though, to replicate that tactically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 3, 2020 Report Share Posted November 3, 2020 Lovely post @Mr Popodopolous, it just shows that any formations has its strengths and weaknesses, and these change depending on the opposition formation / system. I still firmly believe players win games not formations. Norwich played a 4231. So do Cardiff...but they’ll play it very differently. So even within the same formation we have different systems / styles. In a match, a team will morph into several different formations too. If you line-up the magnetic blobs of two different formations on a whiteboard you’ll see obvious gaps and obvious duplication / cover...but both sides will have them, some easier to spot than others. Formations and players are great subject matter for a forum, they add the ability for each and everyone of us to have a slightly different view...and all be right (in our own minds) and wrong (in everyone else’s)!! Was having the same discussion on twitter last night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brad blit Posted November 3, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2020 Called it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassomylord Posted November 3, 2020 Report Share Posted November 3, 2020 433 the way forward now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YGBjammy Posted November 3, 2020 Report Share Posted November 3, 2020 Depends on who is available. Good to have 2 formations we can use, and even change between during the match like we did today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted November 3, 2020 Report Share Posted November 3, 2020 I don't think we have players to play 352 over a season. Wing backs need immense stamina and speed. Hunt won't be able to do that for 90 mins on a regular basis. And imo...DaSilva isn't a wing back. Tbh...I'm not a fan of 352... especially in this league. With the squad we have, I'd prefer 3142/3412 or 4132/451 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finley_Smith10 Posted November 3, 2020 Report Share Posted November 3, 2020 If only we didn’t sell our best winger... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 3, 2020 Report Share Posted November 3, 2020 The good thing about the 433 tonight was that that Semenyo and Diedhiou didn't just stay out on the wings. They played insight out, exploiting the channels....especially Semenyo. Reminded me of Preston (a) - was that his debut? I'd love for him to get a league goal...the assist and performance will've done him no harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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