Our Academy a failure ?

[Better Red]

I quoted Bobby, Joe and Lloyd in my comment. Outside that the best quoted so far are Morrell and Herbie Kane. If that’s the best we can say then I can rest my case. Also O’Leary is only ever going to be at best a back up championship or League One keeper. We don’t trust him enough so not sure who else will in this division. I am not saying we cant produce a few players who can play in the championship but to have not produced an a player for the top of the prem is a poor return in 15 years. As mentioned Liam Rosenier is probably the best in recent times and that is exactly what I am saying. 

[Rebounder]

Hasn't there been an acknowledgement from the club in recent years that this is a problem? Hence the changes in recent years. 

Do we want the players we develop to play in league one and two? Ideally they'd play for us and above, but it is also useful if players who don't go on to brighter things still have decnet careers in the EPL as that's more attractive when selling the academy. It's much better than when most of our players were sinking into Non-League isn't it? The quality seems to have improved in recent years.

I think the club could still do a lot better, but the right ideas are floating around I think. 

 

[Numero Uno]

3 minutes ago, Rich said:

Morrel and O'leary are not playing at championship level, BR is playing part games for a poor Fulham side, (scored tonight) Joe Bryan ranked 94th of 96 defenders in the same Fulham side. Vyner is probably only getting games because of our injury problems and only about 8 to date, hardly a seasoned championship player. Herbie Kane has made four sub appearances. So the successes are two players playing for a shyte premiership team who'll no doubt be back where they started soon and one still with potential at Bournemouth and that's in about ten years. Not really good enough. 

Yes they've provided good returns in transfer fees but, how much has it cost the club in development and wages to those players over the time they were here. I'd say that wasn't a very good return for the investment.

 

We will be well ahead on Lloyd Kelly (£13m) that’s for sure and we’ll also be turning a profit on Bryan and Reid. O’Leary and Vyner would both realise value if we put them up for sale.

Not many players are “seasoned” at Vyner or O’Learys age in their particular positions.

Let’s just agree to disagree on whether there is a need for the Academy.

[Chappers]

Same old garbage, scrap the academy and waste the money on journeymen. What we have now is making the club sustainable, and attracting good quality youngsters. This season may be a bit disappointing as it looks like being one for player development. 

[Rich]

3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

We will be well ahead on Lloyd Kelly (£13m) that’s for sure and we’ll also be turning a profit on Bryan and Reid. O’Leary and Vyner would both realise value if we put them up for sale.

Not many players are “seasoned” at Vyner or O’Learys age in their particular positions.

Let’s just agree to disagree on whether there is a need for the Academy.

I don't think for one minute we should get rid of the academy, I've never said or even implied that we don't need one. I just want it producing a player we can use every year at best and more realistically one every two years. If we don't, we'll be forever trying to buy players to improve our position in the league, which is not a sustainable solution.

Of course Vyner and O'leary would realise a value if they were sold but, the flaw in that argument is that, we'd then have to replace them somehow and at what cost.

[RobArnold10]

It’s not just about the “top end” - players who either play in the first team or we make high fees on, you have to consider players we sell to the L1, L2 and National League, sure, the fees won’t be as eye catching but it all goes back in. And honestly I don’t think there’s a majority of academies at our level that do miles better. If you accept we won’t be like Leeds or Saints then the whole thing becomes a lot more palatable.

[Davefevs]

22 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Even at their peak under Toshack the Swans had Alan Curtis, the late Robbie James, Jeremy Charles, Colin Pascoe, Dean Saunders & a few others, they have always produced a lot of good footballers in that part of Wales.

No idea what I was reading the other day but the following player came up - Bosnian Dzemal ‘Jimmy’ Hadziabdic.  They had a good side for a couple of seasons, then it went south very quickly like ourselves.

[Better Red]

I am not saying we should not have an academy I am just saying we need to improve it’s output. All I am saying having a target of One 1st Team Keeper (starter not a bench warmer). One player who plays for a Top 10 Premiership club. And a few players who are ‘starters’ in our team looks a way off from our current crop. Vyner in my opinion is the most likely to hold down a first team spot at right back. Many I am sure will disagree with that. Bakinson should be a starter but we bought him from Luton for decent money and Seymenyo looks like a squad player that will likely drop down a division because we wont give him enough game time. 

[And Its Smith]

If we produce enough players to make the whole academy a profit making academy then it’s a success.  Can’t judge it over 15 years in my opinion as it hasn’t been in its current form for that long.

Also our academy can be a success at the same time as other clubs being a bigger success

In it’s simplest form, the question is it a success or a failure means should it be continued with or scrapped?  Obviously the former 

[Bristol Rob]

Stands to reason though doesn't it.

The further up the football pyramid you go, the higher the standard which means the standard of player increases.... If we were still a League One side, then the number of young players knocking on the door of the first team would be huge, but we are a club with top 6 ambition in a division above that, so with a higher standard of football, the players need to be even more special.

Which is going to mean that less are deemed special enough, which is why we loan them or sell them.

Remember when we celebrated players like Clayton Fortune, Matt Hewlett and Simon Clist were getting in our first team? At their peak then, they wouldn't make the bench now.

[Lrrr]

45 minutes ago, Rich said:

I don't think for one minute we should get rid of the academy, I've never said or even implied that we don't need one. I just want it producing a player we can use every year at best and more realistically one every two years. If we don't, we'll be forever trying to buy players to improve our position in the league, which is not a sustainable solution.

Of course Vyner and O'leary would realise a value if they were sold but, the flaw in that argument is that, we'd then have to replace them somehow and at what cost.

So for academy players used more regularly

14/15 - Bryan

15/16 - Reid/Bryan

16/17 - Reid/Bryan

17/18 - Reid/Bryan

18/19 - Kelly/O'Leary

19/20 - 

20/21 - Vyner/Semenyo/Bakinson (club talk of him as an academy player)/O'Leary (#2), Morton debut, Towler/Opi Edwards travelling reserves.

 

Just one year with a blip in really where we weren't using academy players regularly in games, where the gaffer had been told top 6 or bust essentially it seems, hardly surprising he didn't venture to giving academy players game time under that basis. If LJ had been told he only had to finish mid table he may well have given more minutes to academy players.

The other thing is to look across the league and see how many academy debuts are handed out per season? Players who really turn into consistent players at this level.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Is our Academy a failure? Number of ways to measure this.

I'd say not. Bryan, Reid to name two. Vyner has now stepped in, O'Leary is a squad member.

Kelly too.

Financially not, absolutely not- it is excluded from FFP and the sales surely will have covered the expenditure- ie the typical annual expenditure, say £2-3m- @Davefevs might know more on how much we do put into the academy in a typical year from a financial POV absolutely not. I'd say- players have gone on to pastures new, we've had a decent innings out of some- while selling one in particular recently- Morrell too soon, IMO.

Someone else mentioned Herbie Kane- forgot about him.

Is it at the very best it could be? Possibly not- always room for improvement and there should be too. Is it a failure? Unsure I see how- and let's see if Pring and Smith either make it here as part of the squad or are sold on for a profit- based on our tactical setup I'd suggest the former would be more likely to slot into the squad, the latter sold on, they're both from our academy yeah? O'Leary either as part of the squad or sold on for profit- but again don't see the failure argument.

[Mr X]

Did Lansdown/Ashton explain why we never went for category one status given how important they say the academy is to the club as any really good youngsters will just be poached by a prem club. 

Saying that the south-west very rarely produces top half prem players though. Jack Butland is the only local player who’s played recently for England, Ollie Watkins probably also will do in the near future and that’s about it. 

[And Its Smith]

1 hour ago, Mr X said:

Did Lansdown/Ashton explain why we never went for category one status given how important they say the academy is to the club as any really good youngsters will just be poached by a prem club. 

Saying that the south-west very rarely produces top half prem players though. Jack Butland is the only local player who’s played recently for England, Ollie Watkins probably also will do in the near future and that’s about it. 

Indeed. This is 2 years old but wouldn’t have changed massively.  The English regions producing the highest number of Premier League players are:

Rank	Region	Number of players
1	London	111
2	North West	69
3	South East	29
4	West Midlands	26
5	East of England	25
6	Yorkshire	23
7	East Midlands	15
=8	North East	14
=8	South West	14

[LondonBristolian]

I think it's worth bearing in mind we overhauled our academy about six or seven years ago and it takes a long time for changes to filter through to the first team. Players who were 12 or 13 at the time the changes were made will only be 18 or 19 now and I think you have to take a (very) long term on the success of youth academies.

I think there is no doubt at all that, up until 2012, our youth academy WAS a failure but I don't think we'll know whether the academy we've had over the last few years is a success for sure until about 2025. At the same time, I think the fact we've got Semenyo, O'Leary and Vyner around the team and a lot of players on loan at league level shows a lot IS going right. We just need patience to see the extent. 

[marcofisher]

I would love to see a comparison to other Championship clubs. 
 

People really miss the point when stating that players such as O’Leary and Vyner aren’t world beaters so what is the point in our academy. We are saving thousands of pounds every week having them around the team rather than spending thousands of pounds on wages a week for a back-up option. Having less wages tied up in these areas allows us to spend more money elsewhere. 
 

It’s not just about producing world-beaters, producing steady Championship (and some possibly better in the future) players such as O’Leary, Vyner, Bakinson and Semenyo allows us to redistribute our wages and bring in players such as Mawson, for example. When we do produce a Kelly, this helps us financially many times over.

 

 

[Numero Uno]

27 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

I would love to see a comparison to other Championship clubs. 
 

People really miss the point when stating that players such as O’Leary and Vyner aren’t world beaters so what is the point in our academy. We are saving thousands of pounds every week having them around the team rather than spending thousands of pounds on wages a week for a back-up option. Having less wages tied up in these areas allows us to spend more money elsewhere. 
 

It’s not just about producing world-beaters, producing steady Championship (and some possibly better in the future) players such as O’Leary, Vyner, Bakinson and Semenyo allows us to redistribute our wages and bring in players such as Mawson, for example. When we do produce a Kelly, this helps us financially many times over.

 

 

It's common sense but we are in the middle of a poor run of results, people are frustrated and all of a sudden this stuff appears. Classic OTIB in action.

[Robbored]

Maybe the OP should have asked ‘what’s the point of the academy, when we have to sell those graduates that have made the first team?’

 

[City oz]

8 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

It's common sense but we are in the middle of a poor run of results, people are frustrated and all of a sudden this stuff appears. Classic OTIB in action.

It’s not classic OTIB in action. It is also not an academy issue. The issue is four months ago the board of directors had a golden opportunity to take on board many head coaches with prem experience, European experience and we ended up with option 2 or 3 and it was DH. No disrespect with DH has he has done well, we started this season well and now we can see where We really sit in this league. OK LJ leaving was the best thing at the time and the club missed the opportunity in getting on Board a head coach with quality and experience at a level that can bring prem football to BS3. 

We are around a mid table spot now  and two weeks ago we were second. If we are not careful there will be a down ward spiral and we will be lucky to get a mid table spot by the end of this season. 

Recent injuries have also not helped DH but it shows we still do not have the deep down roots of a a good committed squad of players playing in there appropriate positions 

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, City oz said:

It’s not classic OTIB in action. It is also not an academy issue. The issue is four months ago the board of directors had a golden opportunity to take on board many head coaches with prem experience, European experience and we ended up with option 2 or 3 and it was DH. No disrespect with DH has he has done well, we started this season well and now we can see where We really sit in this league. OK LJ leaving was the best thing at the time and the club missed the opportunity in getting on Board a head coach with quality and experience at a level that can bring prem football to BS3. 

We are around a mid table spot now  and two weeks ago we were second. If we are not careful there will be a down ward spiral and we will be lucky to get a mid table spot by the end of this season. 

Recent injuries have also not helped DH but it shows we still do not have the deep down roots of a a good committed squad of players playing in there appropriate positions 

I'm sure the term is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We've made the wrong managerial choice in some people's opinion so lets give the Academy a good bashing too............

[Chappers]

3 minutes ago, City oz said:

It’s not classic OTIB in action. It is also not an academy issue. The issue is four months ago the board of directors had a golden opportunity to take on board many head coaches with prem experience, European experience and we ended up with option 2 or 3 and it was DH. No disrespect with DH has he has done well, we started this season well and now we can see where We really sit in this league. OK LJ leaving was the best thing at the time and the club missed the opportunity in getting on Board a head coach with quality and experience at a level that can bring prem football to BS3. 

We are around a mid table spot now  and two weeks ago we were second. If we are not careful there will be a down ward spiral and we will be lucky to get a mid table spot by the end of this season. 

Recent injuries have also not helped DH but it shows we still do not have the deep down roots of a a good committed squad of players playing in there appropriate positions 

Classic OTIB, hi-jack a thread to have a little tantrum that you didn’t get the manager you wanted. Boo Hoo. Holden is the manager, he’s new, too many injuries, and prioritising player development (What should have happened last season)).

[Oh Louie louie]

Yes southampton, have always picked up quality young uns from around here.

They used to have a training acadmey in bath, i dunno about now, Forest used to pick up a few players too.

I reckon, our academy is probaly 1 of the best outside the prem.

[City oz]

2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I'm sure the term is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We've made the wrong managerial choice in some people's opinion so lets give the Academy a good bashing too............

I’m not throwing my dummy out of the pram or knocking the academy.  I’m nearly stating the club had an opportunity to engage a head coach of quality several months back and they failed to do it,

[Lrrr]

1 minute ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Yes southampton, have always picked up quality young uns from around here.

They used to have a training acadmey in bath, i dunno about now, Forest used to pick up a few players too.

I reckon, our academy is probaly 1 of the best outside the prem.

Hard to say, you've got the likes of Crewe, Wigan, Swansea, Exeter, Preston (have a few England age group players), Sunderland up to U18's/U23's are very good but have had players pinched due to financial state of club, a lot of Cat 1 academies aren't prem clubs so the likes of Derby, Blackburn, Boro etc. Then other lower league clubs where you may not hear about academy graduates so much like Rochdale.

[Bristol Oil Services]

13 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Yes southampton, have always picked up quality young uns from around here.

 

So let's have the names, then: the Bristol kiddies (a BS postcode please) that Saints pinched and are now lighting up (or previously lit up) the Prem, when they might've been playing for us? 

 

 

[And Its Smith]

34 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Maybe the OP should have asked ‘what’s the point of the academy, when we have to sell those graduates that have made the first team?’

 

 Bit of a stupid question though surely. We have to sell those players to try not to lose £15m per year.  

[Oh Louie louie]

They picked up plenty of kids in this region, like forest in the 80s and 90s moments.

You are correct, not many made the grade.

But take it from me those two clubs had the pick of players in this region in those times.

Why do you think southampton had a base in bath?

[And Its Smith]

3 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

They picked up plenty of kids in this region, like forest in the 80s and 90s moments.

You are correct, not many made the grade.

But take it from me those two clubs had the pick of players in this region in those times.

Why do you think southampton had a base in bath?

Clubs have academies other than in their own city/town. My son regularly plays against Southampton, Villa, Exeter, Cardiff and others. It’s their academies local to Bristol.  

[spudski]

It's a catch 22.

The best thing the Club have done is realise Academy players will never be ready for top 6 Championship level.

Putting BT in charge of loans was paramount.

These Academy players need men's football. They need that experience in the league.

That's where they'll shine in league 1 or 2. The biggest stage of their development is whether they can shine at that level and make the transition to top 6 level...be introduced...and develop further.

No one in the Academy will go straight to first team and shine with a loan.

That's where the Academy system is broken and where foreign teams have an advantage, because they have B teams in the league pyramid.

[Numero Uno]

Just now, And Its Smith said:

Clubs have academies other than in their own city/town. My son regularly plays against Southampton, Villa, Exeter, Cardiff and others. It’s their academies local to Bristol.  

Those are normally Development Centres..........players looking to make it into the main Academy. Has been cynically used in the past by some clubs to get parents to pay £25-£40 per month to gettheir lads  "quality coaching" with the main aim of the club being an additional funding stream for the Academy. No different than Regional Talent Centres like North Somerset except they have a much wider net and can send their boys to any club that takes an interest.