Our Academy a failure ?

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

In addition some have an education, a £50K per year job and earn £20K from playing football part time. Why would they join Accrington Stanley for £45K per year just for the "kudos" of being a professional footballer? I know some lads would sacrifice the money and choose the latter but there are many who would take the former option.

Exactly.  When you hear of Kevin Ellison (41) at Newport on £24k pa people need to realise not all pros are on decent money.

[Numero Uno]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Exactly.  When you hear of Kevin Ellison (41) at Newport on £24k pa people need to realise not all pros are on decent money.

And there will be 19 year olds at Premier League clubs with a handful of appearances to their name earning that per week!!

[downendcity]

28 minutes ago, Rich said:

I'm not implying anything of the sort. I'm suggesting that perhaps we need to improve our output of players, both in numbers and quality. Am I wrong to want it to improve? I seem to be being criticised for wanting better for my club. I'm not happy or satisfied with what we've produced to date and think it should improve. That's not being critical of anyone in particular, which I haven't been, I just want an improvement. If people are happy with three players of proven championship quality, none of them playing for us, over a ten year period then that's up to them.

That’s the way I interpreted this section of your post.........

"I agree with him, we have produced diddly squat for the time and effort put into this project over the years. Other teams seem to find a way of producing talent.” 

I would certainly not criticise you for wanting better for our club and for wanting the academy to do better and produce more, and better players to reinforce the first team and squad - we all want the same. There will always be “other teams” finding a way of producing talent, it’s just that I don't think there  are that many doing appreciably  better than us, but am more than happy to be corrected if this is not the case.. 

 

 

 

[ZiderEyed]

Perhaps not a failure but nowhere near where it could and should be. City have some seriously huge advantages going for them that they don't use to the fullest extent.

- Uncompetitive market in the South West, ergo larger talent pool.

- Closest Cat 2s are Cardiff and Swansea

- Surrounded by Cat 3s (Swindon, Rovers, Exeter, Bournemouth, Plmyouth, FGR)

And yet do City PRODUCE players that are capable of playing at the elite level in the first team or in the England setup? Produce, as in being with the club before the technical age - 14? Semenyo and Bakinson are both players who have been brought in after that technical age, so claiming them as the triumph of our academy system is completely wrong. What's more, the only current City player in the England setup is Ayman Benarous at 17s level. Not good enough for the natural advantage Bristol has at the moment in terms of elite youth development. 

If City actually cared about the academy system as much as they like to say they do, then they'd try to progress to Cat 1, access the games programme for the FDP to play against better sides and develop late specialization sports schools/camps for children in Bristol, Somerset and Gloucester.

Since the last time I had a rant on OTIB about City and the academy Swansea have downgraded to Cat 2, so there are 25 Category 1 academies in England right now. That's far too many clubs able to pinch Maddoxes and Kanes for pennies. If you're a Cat 1 club, you're an elite environment, so there's no reason for those players to be leaving in practical terms, and you can keep hold of them for longer and ensure a greater fee if/when you do sell them. If you're Exeter, then the EPPP means you WILL lose Ampadus, but Bristol City have the scope and funds to be actually producing and keeping their own talent.

The following graph illustrates in terms of output how beneficial it is to have access to Category 1 coaching, recruitment, games programme, and education.

 

City's academy can and should be doing better than it is right now.

 

[Oh Louie louie]

As for paul mardon great goal at forest.

But that was erased from my memory, when he decided he was welsh.

[Rich]

7 minutes ago, downendcity said:

That’s the way I interpreted this section of your post.........

"I agree with him, we have produced diddly squat for the time and effort put into this project over the years. Other teams seem to find a way of producing talent.” 

I would certainly not criticise you for wanting better for our club and for wanting the academy to do better and produce more, and better players to reinforce the first team and squad - we all want the same. There will always be “other teams” finding a way of producing talent, it’s just that I don't think there  are that many doing appreciably  better than us, but am more than happy to be corrected if this is not the case.. 

 

 

 

I don't know what teams are doing better or not than us. I suspect some are and some aren't.

The point in having an academy I would have thought, would be to give you an advantage over teams that don't have one, or is not as good as ours. So I want to be one of those teams that are producing more players that are able to contribute to our first team and, help take it to a higher level. Currently, we are not doing that and haven't done enough in the past.

[Lrrr]

33 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

Perhaps not a failure but nowhere near where it could and should be. City have some seriously huge advantages going for them that they don't use to the fullest extent.

- Uncompetitive market in the South West, ergo larger talent pool.

- Closest Cat 2s are Cardiff and Swansea

- Surrounded by Cat 3s (Swindon, Rovers, Exeter, Bournemouth, Plmyouth, FGR)

And yet do City PRODUCE players that are capable of playing at the elite level in the first team or in the England setup? Produce, as in being with the club before the technical age - 14? Semenyo and Bakinson are both players who have been brought in after that technical age, so claiming them as the triumph of our academy system is completely wrong. What's more, the only current City player in the England setup is Ayman Benarous at 17s level. Not good enough for the natural advantage Bristol has at the moment in terms of elite youth development. 

If City actually cared about the academy system as much as they like to say they do, then they'd try to progress to Cat 1, access the games programme for the FDP to play against better sides and develop late specialization sports schools/camps for children in Bristol, Somerset and Gloucester.

Since the last time I had a rant on OTIB about City and the academy Swansea have downgraded to Cat 2, so there are 25 Category 1 academies in England right now. That's far too many clubs able to pinch Maddoxes and Kanes for pennies. If you're a Cat 1 club, you're an elite environment, so there's no reason for those players to be leaving in practical terms, and you can keep hold of them for longer and ensure a greater fee if/when you do sell them. If you're Exeter, then the EPPP means you WILL lose Ampadus, but Bristol City have the scope and funds to be actually producing and keeping their own talent.

The following graph illustrates in terms of output how beneficial it is to have access to Category 1 coaching, recruitment, games programme, and education.

 

City's academy can and should be doing better than it is right now.

 

Just because we're surrounded by Cat 3's doesn't mean we'll be recruiting from those places necessarily, you have to live within 90 mins of the academy to play for them, so Bournemouth is already out of our reach, Yeovil too if you live in the wrong part of it, Exeter and Plymouth both out as well. Also if a player is already at their academy it means you have to be sure enough the player will make it to justify paying for their EPPP cost which for a club like ours isn't likely, we don't set aside a small portion of the budget for youth recruitment. Likelihood is if the kid is in another academy we're not touching them unless they're a special talent or being released.

Having 1 player make an appearance for England is great for an academy like ours as it actually requires England scouts to come watch them in the first place which they often don't do and stick to Cat 1 academies as your charts show, its only exceptional players who get in otherwise. Benarous' England coach was Kevin Betsy so lucky for him that he comes to watch City. City have a few Welsh internationals as well Pearson, Soady, Low and a few younger players to name a few, perhaps not surprising given our proximity to the border.

Games program doesn't apply at FDP and academies play each other regardless of category up to U15's, U16's, U18's and U23's they are then split into their categories and play in a league with others in their category. At younger age groups City will still play Southampton, Exeter, Plymouth, Chelsea, Arsenal etc. A question could be would you want to move the 18's/23's up to Cat 1 standard? Is it better to be able to be competitive in Cat 2 allowing players freedom to attack etc, or play Cat 1 and have to face the big academies and then perhaps only have competitive games with a handful of clubs?

 

[City oz]

21 hours ago, Chappers said:

And how exactly do you know they haven’t?

Time will tell. I hope I’m wrong.

[Davefevs]

Guess it’s dog eat cat throughout?

 

[Numero Uno]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Guess it’s dog eat cat throughout?

 

Ignored Spurs, Villa the club he supports, Birmingham (obviously!!) and Forest Green to come to our "absolute state" of an Academy.....................

[Lrrr]

And another

 

[Numero Uno]

These signings prove that in addition to the lads who show promise from Age 9 and go the full Academy route we are also having a look out for the "late developers" and there are quite a few of those around if you look hard enough. We got criticism recently for not picking up Ryan Jones from WSM who has now signed for the Tent Enders (we did have him on trial before both Fulham and Rovers though) but what these signings show is we are looking even if our opinion on a player is not always the same as others.

[Rich]

31 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

These signings prove that in addition to the lads who show promise from Age 9 and go the full Academy route we are also having a look out for the "late developers" and there are quite a few of those around if you look hard enough. We got criticism recently for not picking up Ryan Jones from WSM who has now signed for the Tent Enders (we did have him on trial before both Fulham and Rovers though) but what these signings show is we are looking even if our opinion on a player is not always the same as others.

I suppose these two signings prove categorically that our academy is a resounding success. Can you tell me if they're in the first team for tomorrows game?

[Numero Uno]

32 minutes ago, Rich said:

I suppose these two signings prove categorically that our academy is a resounding success. Can you tell me if they're in the first team for tomorrows game?

Childish.

[Rich]

46 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Childish.

Said the person who posted this.

 

Ignored Spurs, Villa the club he supports, Birmingham (obviously!!) and Forest Green to come to our "absolute state" of an Academy.