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Our Academy a failure ?


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Before you jump to its defence just stop and think honestly what has it produced over the last 15 years. We have had three players that are arguably Top three championship or bottom six of the Prem. Bobby, Joe and Lloyd. Vyner is arguably a player who could play at a decent level in the championship. But after that the players of a decent level are then ones we have brought in and paid big money for. We have not produced a regular Premier League player who could play in the top half of the Prem that I can recall in the last twenty years. We have not even stumbled across one by accident. We seem to be able to pack league 1 and 2 with our players but is that what its about. It flatters to deceive because they are all getting game time but are they going to make a decent premier league player from one of them. So if producing just a few just above average players is good enough with all the investment made is success but not for me. The returns on Bobby, Joe and Lloyd will have helped reduce the loss significantly over the last 15 years. Covid a aside I just don’t see any player we have coming through that we have not bought that will make the jump. You could blame it on the scouts but it’s hard to believe they have not found a few diamonds. If success is creating players for the first team then 4 in the last 15 years says fail to me. If producing a top Prem player, just one then fail again. Producing a first team Keeper fail again. A decent midfielder fail again. A English International fail... So honestly successful ? 

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1 hour ago, Better Red said:

Covid a aside I just don’t see any player we have coming through that we have not bought that will make the jump. 

Producing a first team Keeper fail again.

I assume you watch all the academy games regularly to be able to make this assertion?

You realise our 2nd and 3rd keepers atm are academy products? 

The other thing about academy football is that any change in direction or plan then takes 4 or 5 years to see benefits, 16/17/18 year olds may not get the benefit to changes whereas 11/12/13 year olds may well do with longer exposure to that system.

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1 hour ago, Better Red said:

Before you jump to its defence just stop and think honestly what has it produced over the last 15 years. We have had three players that are arguably Top three championship or bottom six of the Prem. Bobby, Joe and Lloyd. Vyner is arguably a player who could play at a decent level in the championship. But after that the players of a decent level are then ones we have brought in and paid big money for. We have not produced a regular Premier League player who could play in the top half of the Prem that I can recall in the last twenty years. We have not even stumbled across one by accident. We seem to be able to pack league 1 and 2 with our players but is that what its about. It flatters to deceive because they are all getting game time but are they going to make a decent premier league player from one of them. So if producing just a few just above average players is good enough with all the investment made is success but not for me. The returns on Bobby, Joe and Lloyd will have helped reduce the loss significantly over the last 15 years. Covid a aside I just don’t see any player we have coming through that we have not bought that will make the jump. You could blame it on the scouts but it’s hard to believe they have not found a few diamonds. If success is creating players for the first team then 4 in the last 15 years says fail to me. If producing a top Prem player, just one then fail again. Producing a first team Keeper fail again. A decent midfielder fail again. A English International fail... So honestly successful ? 

InpastyearsAshtonyateyoumayhavehadapointandimayevenhaveagreedwithyoubutunderffptheamountspentontheacademyteamistakenoutoftheequationifirecallcorrectlysoitdoesntmatter.

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Not sure why FFP is brought into it really, but for clarification, Academy costs can be removed from any FFP submissions.

We could spend £100m on if we wanted, and remove it from FFP calculations.

In terms of the OP I think he’s asking why we haven’t produced a first keeper in 15 years, not why aren’t  the current youngsters first team ready.  We do have Max in the first team squad.

I’m not gonna give my views on this subject.  I’m not close enough to the constraints of EPPP and the differences of Cat1 and Cat2.  I don’t know if the OP is.

But I look forward to reading the replies and educating myself.

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Bryan, Reid and Kelly have surely paid for the annual Academy cost several times over on their own even when adjusting for wages.

We have O’Leary as our Nr 2 keeper and who has also played circa 20 games for us. What is his “book value”? Vyner playing first team football, again he will have a value. Morrell, was he an academy player? What did he go for?

We were compensated by Liverpool for Herbie Kane and I’m not sure whether there are one or two others also taken by bigger clubs?

We have a number of lads on loan in the lower leagues who may or may not turn out to be first team players in due course but they will all have a value now. The fact that clubs are taking these lads from us shows we must be producing decent talent. In fact read what Dopey had to say about our Academy........

Add the fact Academy costs are disallowable from FFP and you can only conclude from a business perspective if nothing else it would be mental not to have one.

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32 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

I assume you watch all the academy games regularly to be able to make this assertion?

You realise our 2nd and 3rd keepers atm are academy products? 

The other thing about academy football is that any change in direction or plan then takes 4 or 5 years to see benefits, 16/17/18 year olds may not get the benefit to changes whereas 11/12/13 year olds may well do with longer exposure to that system.

To some degree, the quote about our 2nd and 3rd keepers somewhat backs up the OP's thoughts. 

I agree with him, we have produced diddly squat for the time and effort put into this project over the years. Other teams seem to find a way of producing talent.

I think this is also a geographical problem as well. Going back a few years, (quite a few actually), people were arguing the benefits of a team filled with local players. I checked to see how many players were born in this region and playing league football. 26 was the number and they were mostly playing third and fourth tier football with a couple in the 2nd tier. Using their argument, we'd have had a third/fourth tier team. As a comparison, I checked Liverpool born players. 92 were registered, with forty odd playing in the top two tiers. Why don't we produce them in the area should be the question.

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1 minute ago, Simon bristol said:

I do have sympathies with the original poster. It would seem to me lloyd kelly is the best player to have come through the academy, and he had 1 injury hit premier league season and was relegated. Perhaps there are youngsters coming through now who are the real deal, we will have to wait and see.

My son through a combination of playing against him and what what he has heard from a mate in the Academy had mentioned Riley Towler as one who should come through.

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Just now, Numero Uno said:

My son through a combination of playing against him and what what he has heard from a mate in the Academy had mentioned Riley Towler as one who should come through.

Dean must think so enough to have him on the bench for a cup game and a travelling reserve to Bournemouth

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11 minutes ago, Rich said:

To some degree, the quote about our 2nd and 3rd keepers somewhat backs up the OP's thoughts. 

I agree with him, we have produced diddly squat for the time and effort put into this project over the years. Other teams seem to find a way of producing talent.

I think this is also a geographical problem as well. Going back a few years, (quite a few actually), people were arguing the benefits of a team filled with local players. I checked to see how many players were born in this region and playing league football. 26 was the number and they were mostly playing third and fourth tier football with a couple in the 2nd tier. Using their argument, we'd have had a third/fourth tier team. As a comparison, I checked Liverpool born players. 92 were registered, with forty odd playing in the top two tiers. Why don't we produce them in the area should be the question.

Cardiff, our nearest rivals, have Joe Ralls in the first team and correct me if I’m wrong have literally produced nothing else.

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Just now, Numero Uno said:

Cardiff, our nearest rivals, have Joe Ralls in the first team and correct me if I’m wrong have literally produced nothing else.

They have managed to get promoted to the premiership with  a squad of players probably boosted from their academy, even if not totally from their academy. We're talking about BCFC anyway and we hardly ever  produce players that can perform in the upper division, 70's was our most productive period and we never had an academy. Just youth, reserves and A team.

 

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I don’t think our academy is much different to many others is it, how many first team players at other clubs came through the ranks at that club to start regularly?
 

It would be good to see some stats from the weekends games for the Top 4 divisions (a lockdown job for somebody!), I’d say the average would be 2 at best across the board, higher in the lower divisions probably,

I’m happy to be proved utterly wrong 

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Just now, Rich said:

They have managed to get promoted to the premiership with  a squad of players probably boosted from their academy, even if not totally from their academy. We're talking about BCFC anyway and we hardly ever  produce players that can perform in the upper division, 70's was our most productive period and we never had an academy. Just youth, reserves and A team.

 

OK, lets talk about us. Reid, Bryan, Kelly, Vyner, Herbie Kane, Joe Morrell, O’Leary.......all playing at Premiership or Championship level and all came through our Academy at some point so on that basis to say “we hardly ever produce players” is a strange one to me.

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24 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

I do have sympathies with the original poster. It would seem to me lloyd kelly is the best player to have come through the academy, and he had 1 injury hit premier league season and was relegated. Perhaps there are youngsters coming through now who are the real deal, we will have to wait and see.

Liam Rosenior in with a shout for best player produced.

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On the Kane/Maddox front, EPPP really kills us in one regard as Cat 1 academies are allowed to recruit nationwide from (I can't exactly remember) 14-16ish and the big clubs have scouts out every weekend at practically every club of interest. We start a reputation for developing a few as we did with Bobby/Joe/Lloyd, the big boys think 'wonder who else they've got coming through', they don't look at u16's or u18's much as EPPP cost would be high but they look U11-U14's instead.

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17 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Cardiff, our nearest rivals, have Joe Ralls in the first team and correct me if I’m wrong have literally produced nothing else.

That is the case, Swansea fans often make the point that Cardiff haven’t produced a Welsh international in years (Ramsey & Gunter left them in 2008, Ledley in 2010) & have recently released all of their Academy graduates, including a lad called Cameron Coxe, who was seen as their Academy’s “brightest talent”, he joined Solihull Moors...

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Just now, GrahamC said:

That is the case, Swansea fans often make the point that Cardiff haven’t produced a Welsh international in years (Ramsey & Gunter left them in 2008, Ledley in 2010) & have recently released all of their Academy graduates, including a lad called Cameron Coxe, who was seen as their Academy’s “brightest talent”, he joined Solihull Moors...

That's because Swansea can make that point when you look at their academy graduates, Dan James, Connor Roberts, Joe Rodon, George Byers, Ben Cabango, Liam Cullen etc all in recent years and Joe Allen, Jazz Richards if you go back a little.

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1 minute ago, GrahamC said:

That is the case, Swansea fans often make the point that Cardiff haven’t produced a Welsh international in years (Ramsey & Gunter left them in 2008, Ledley in 2010) & have recently released all of their Academy graduates, including a lad called Cameron Coxe, who was seen as their Academy’s “brightest talent”, he joined Solihull Moors...

Yep, two of their older lads at WSM when we have younger lads playing Leagues 1/2. As I said good old Darryl was telling the local press in the midlands that “they know what they are doing with young players down there and every lad they send has a great attitude”........

But hey, we have lost a couple on the spin so let’s claim that the whole operation is an abject failure😂😂😂😂😂

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1 minute ago, Lrrr said:

That's because Swansea can make that point when you look at their academy graduates, Dan James, Connor Roberts, Joe Rodon, George Byers, Ben Cabango, Liam Cullen etc all in recent years and Joe Allen, Jazz Richards if you go back a little.

Even at their peak under Toshack the Swans had Alan Curtis, the late Robbie James, Jeremy Charles, Colin Pascoe, Dean Saunders & a few others, they have always produced a lot of good footballers in that part of Wales.

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8 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

OK, lets talk about us. Reid, Bryan, Kelly, Vyner, Herbie Kane, Joe Morrell, O’Leary.......all playing at Premiership or Championship level and all came through our Academy at some point so on that basis to say “we hardly ever produce players” is a strange one to me.

Morrel and O'leary are not playing at championship level, BR is playing part games for a poor Fulham side, (scored tonight) Joe Bryan ranked 94th of 96 defenders in the same Fulham side. Vyner is probably only getting games because of our injury problems and only about 8 to date, hardly a seasoned championship player. Herbie Kane has made four sub appearances. So the successes are two players playing for a shyte premiership team who'll no doubt be back where they started soon and one still with potential at Bournemouth and that's in about ten years. Not really good enough. 

Yes they've provided good returns in transfer fees but, how much has it cost the club in development and wages to those players over the time they were here. I'd say that wasn't a very good return for the investment.

 

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The OP is very interesting in his/her comments. In short, we have not produced many regular first teamers in the last ten/fifteen years.

Lots of factors come into play. The flood of non British players has actually improved the quality level in the Prem, Championship and League One by pushing many down a league or two. Thus it is that much harder for Academy players to break into the first teams at Prem and Championship clubs.

The overuse of the loan system means that the young ones get more game time but at a lower level than they need to gain experience while still young. It is quite possible that many loanees settle for being good at the loan club's level rather than in a higher league with fewer opportunities. They may become unwittingly complacent instead of pushing themselves.

And from the managerial point of view, there are plenty of managers who pay lip service to the Academy pathway but do not use them enough. Or even not at all! Joe Morrell is a good example.

I know some of you will shoot me down, but LJ wasted four years giving minimal opportunities to Academy boys. I consider that Bryan, Reid and to an extent Kelly were not his to claim. The only one who had any opportunity provided by LJ is O'Leary.

Now, Holden has in the last two months had at least three young ones (those Academy for a long time and those we brought in as late teens) in his team as first choice. It will probably mean that we lack the experience to challenge at the top this season but the benefits will be there in the future.

 

 

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