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Our Academy a failure ?


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1 minute ago, spudski said:

It's a catch 22.

The best thing the Club have done is realise Academy players will never be ready for top 6 Championship level.

Putting BT in charge of loans was paramount.

These Academy players need men's football. They need that experience in the league.

That's where they'll shine in league 1 or 2. The biggest stage of their development is whether they can shine at that level and make the transition to top 6 level...be introduced...and develop further.

No one in the Academy will go straight to first team and shine with a loan.

That's where the Academy system is broken and where foreign teams have an advantage, because they have B teams in the league pyramid.

Lloyd Kelly being the obvious exception and the most talented of the bunch.

B Teams in the league pyramid will not be tolerated in this country whether right, wrong or indifferent. It would literally kill lower league football in a very short space of time. It's just something clubs at the top need to accept and find another way for their youngsters. Dopey was talking about having an informal link up with us the other week.........that is more likely to be a solution although clearly if Walsall loaned 15 Academy graduates from us they would be Bristol City B in reality.

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11 minutes ago, spudski said:

It's a catch 22.

The best thing the Club have done is realise Academy players will never be ready for top 6 Championship level.

Putting BT in charge of loans was paramount.

These Academy players need men's football. They need that experience in the league.

That's where they'll shine in league 1 or 2. The biggest stage of their development is whether they can shine at that level and make the transition to top 6 level...be introduced...and develop further.

No one in the Academy will go straight to first team and shine with a loan.

That's where the Academy system is broken and where foreign teams have an advantage, because they have B teams in the league pyramid.

Top 6 championship level ? The current squad is not capable of this. 

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5 minutes ago, City oz said:

Top 6 championship level ? The current squad is not capable of this. 

Correct. Spudski's point though is that in the overwhelming majority of cases (Lloyd Kelly being an obvious exception) it is totally unrealistic to expect 18 and 19 year old boys to be ready to perform at Top 6 Championship level. The standard you have to be at to perform at that level, physically as well as technically, is literally insane for an 18/19 year old kid to be able to reach......which shows how good young lads who play Premier League/International football actually are. That is why the vast majority of kids have to be sent on loan into the lower leagues first and why they do not reach the standard until they are 20/21/22.

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24 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Those are normally Development Centres..........players looking to make it into the main Academy. Has been cynically used in the past by some clubs to get parents to pay £25-£40 per month to gettheir lads  "quality coaching" with the main aim of the club being an additional funding stream for the Academy. No different than Regional Talent Centres like North Somerset except they have a much wider net and can send their boys to any club that takes an interest.

Yes, development centres rather than academies. Not sure I agree that it’s cynical.  Parents pay for their kids to get quality coaching twice per week and a game on a Saturday. No different to playing for a ‘normal’ Bristol club side. Just more expensive but then get more sessions.  If any player is top drawer then the academies then know about them. 

The regional talent centres will have links to clubs as well. Bristol City definitely have one with Bristol Inner City for example and will take their best players which suits both parties from a business perspective 

Edited by And Its Smith
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4 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

All citys apprentices were local lads in the late 80s early 90s.

Do you think this was the case at top clubs then?

Best player in my school went to forest, in 1990, he was on 40 quid a week.

Diffrent times.

The rich clubs started spreading their net wide in the 80s I believe. Someone from my school went to Man United at the age of 13-14 

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31 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

They picked up plenty of kids in this region, like forest in the 80s and 90s moments.

You are correct, not many made the grade.

But take it from me those two clubs had the pick of players in this region in those times.

Why do you think southampton had a base in bath?

 

2 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

All citys apprentices were local lads in the late 80s early 90s.

Do you think this was the case at top clubs then?

Best player in my school went to forest, in 1990, he was on 40 quid a week.

Diffrent times.

Yes, when I look back to my school days (mid-80s), it was Forest, Watford, Southampton, Norwich, etc.  It wasn’t regional development hubs....it was lots of miles.  I remember the the likes of Richard Ford (ex-Forest Green) going to Forest, Jason Drysdale (Speedie’s son) to Watford, Phil Underhill (Graham’s younger brother) to Southampton, Andy Johnson to Norwich, David Lee to Chelsea, Julian Dicks to Birmingham, etc.  All players I played with or against except Andy Johnson, who was a bit younger.  I’m sure there were loads more too.

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16 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Yes, development centres rather than academies. Not sure I agree that it’s cynical.  Parents pay for their kids to get quality coaching twice per week and a game on a Saturday.  If any player is top drawer then the academies then know about them. 

The regional talent centres will have links to clubs as well. Bristol City definitely have one with Bristol Inner City for example and will take their best players which suits both parties from a business perspective 

Only a personal thing but if it was my lad who wasn't quite good enough for an Academy I would send him to a RTC that plays in the Junior Premier League all day long over a specialist pro club Development Centre that doesn't (I know some like Aston Villa do). Certainly didn't hurt Ryan Jones who was at North Somerset RTC and has just signed for the Fewers from WSM for a larger chunk of money than you might think.

Edited by Numero Uno
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In the County side I played in during the early 90’s we had 1 at Man Utd, 1 at Southampton, 4 at City and 3 at Rovers. 
 

From personal memory around that time, 3rd, 4th and 5th year at school, Norwich and Southampton were particularly active in scouting the Southwest. I forget the names of their scouts but seeing them on the touchline along with Jock Rae, Roy Dolling & Vernon Lee at Bristol Boys, County and rep games was a regular occurrence. 

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10 hours ago, Lrrr said:

So for academy players used more regularly

14/15 - Bryan

15/16 - Reid/Bryan

16/17 - Reid/Bryan

17/18 - Reid/Bryan

18/19 - Kelly/O'Leary

19/20 - 

20/21 - Vyner/Semenyo/Bakinson (club talk of him as an academy player)/O'Leary (#2), Morton debut, Towler/Opi Edwards travelling reserves.

 

Just one year with a blip in really where we weren't using academy players regularly in games, where the gaffer had been told top 6 or bust essentially it seems, hardly surprising he didn't venture to giving academy players game time under that basis. If LJ had been told he only had to finish mid table he may well have given more minutes to academy players.

The other thing is to look across the league and see how many academy debuts are handed out per season? Players who really turn into consistent players at this level.

I think you've highlighted how poor the return actually is. The reality of it is that, of all those you mentioned and tried to squeeze in as successes, only Reid, Bryan and Kelly are performing at a decent level. We are decimated by injuries which has promoted Vyner into our team, otherwise he'd be a bench warmer at best, the same applies to O'leary and Semenyo. Bakinson was a product of another club and we've just exploited that. The others are just speculation that they'll make it.

So, three players in seven years and none playing for us. But there was also a void prior to those seven years.

I'll say it again that I believe in the route of the academy, it's the best route forward, we just have to make it more productive in the players we get to use at our level, that must be the aim. Not developing players for the benefit of other clubs or filling the lower leagues.

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1 minute ago, Rich said:

I think you've highlighted how poor the return actually is. The reality of it is that, of all those you mentioned and tried to squeeze in as successes, only Reid, Bryan and Kelly are performing at a decent level. We are decimated by injuries which has promoted Vyner into our team, otherwise he'd be a bench warmer at best, the same applies to O'leary and Semenyo. Bakinson was a product of another club and we've just exploited that. The others are just speculation that they'll make it.

So, three players in seven years and none playing for us. But there was also a void prior to those seven years.

I'll say it again that I believe in the route of the academy, it's the best route forward, we just have to make it more productive in the players we get to use at our level, that must be the aim. Not developing players for the benefit of other clubs or filling the lower leagues.

Do you disagree that you have to be insanely good and a right physical specimen at 18/19 to be up to Championship football? If not then you must surely see why these boys are sent to the lower leagues first? It's obvious isn't it?

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2 minutes ago, Rich said:

I think you've highlighted how poor the return actually is. The reality of it is that, of all those you mentioned and tried to squeeze in as successes, only Reid, Bryan and Kelly are performing at a decent level. We are decimated by injuries which has promoted Vyner into our team, otherwise he'd be a bench warmer at best, the same applies to O'leary and Semenyo. Bakinson was a product of another club and we've just exploited that. The others are just speculation that they'll make it.

So, three players in seven years and none playing for us. But there was also a void prior to those seven years.

I'll say it again that I believe in the route of the academy, it's the best route forward, we just have to make it more productive in the players we get to use at our level, that must be the aim. Not developing players for the benefit of other clubs or filling the lower leagues.

Your expectations seem wildly outlandish tbh, you discount O'Leary whose played 20 odd games for the first team which is fine as a keeper given the lack of substitute opportunities, you discount Semenyo whose played very well this season even with a lack of goals. It doesn't matter how Vyner got to the first team just that he's playing there at the moment, if he hypothetically ended up being our player of the season would it be discounted on 'oh he only got games because someone else got injured'? Of course it wouldn't be. 

'The others are just speculation that they'll make it'..... In other words you have no ability to say any of them won't be good enough, you just flat out don't know.

The other reason your expectations appear to be outlandish is because theres no appreciation for just how few academy products become first team regulars if you're discounting O'Leary, Semenyo and Vyner. Derby are a massive standout currently at our level with who they have but thats partly because Derby have one of the better academies in the country and the resources that go into their academy vastly exceeds the likes of ours. Outside one or two other clubs you'd find most clubs are at best on our level of producing 2 or 3 regular first team players over a 5 year period so we're not doing poorly by any stretch. The championship has moved on largely from the days where you can expect an 18/19 year old to come in and excel because of the physical demands of the game now.

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2 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Your expectations seem wildly outlandish tbh, you discount O'Leary whose played 20 odd games for the first team which is fine as a keeper given the lack of substitute opportunities, you discount Semenyo whose played very well this season even with a lack of goals. It doesn't matter how Vyner got to the first team just that he's playing there at the moment, if he hypothetically ended up being our player of the season would it be discounted on 'oh he only got games because someone else got injured'? Of course it wouldn't be. 

'The others are just speculation that they'll make it'..... In other words you have no ability to say any of them won't be good enough, you just flat out don't know.

The other reason your expectations appear to be outlandish is because theres no appreciation for just how few academy products become first team regulars if you're discounting O'Leary, Semenyo and Vyner. Derby are a massive standout currently at our level with who they have but thats partly because Derby have one of the better academies in the country and the resources that go into their academy vastly exceeds the likes of ours. Outside one or two other clubs you'd find most clubs are at best on our level of producing 2 or 3 regular first team players over a 5 year period so we're not doing poorly by any stretch. The championship has moved on largely from the days where you can expect an 18/19 year old to come in and excel because of the physical demands of the game now.

You have to be physically developed and a more than decent player to stand out in the SOUTHERN LEAGUE at 18 years of age. As you go up the leagues it is obviously even tougher and to do it at Championship Level is something else entirely. Most of these boys have to start lower and work their way up before they are ready to play for us.

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29 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

correct dave, infact now you mention it norwich were strong too.

⬇️⬇️⬇️

21 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Norwich scouted cureton at cadbury heath.

Funny enough was reading the wembley book, the other day and graham underhill was in there!

Was just about to mention him too....he’s a bit younger than my age groups though, but same principle.  Steve Slocombe was a year or so younger than me, went to Coventry.

19 minutes ago, SBB said:

In the County side I played in during the early 90’s we had 1 at Man Utd, 1 at Southampton, 4 at City and 3 at Rovers. 
 

From personal memory around that time, 3rd, 4th and 5th year at school, Norwich and Southampton were particularly active in scouting the Southwest. I forget the names of their scouts but seeing them on the touchline along with Jock Rae, Roy Dolling & Vernon Lee at Bristol Boys, County and rep games was a regular occurrence. 

Vernon Lee was David Lee’s dad wasn’t he?

Again, much younger than me but you had Raphael Burke at Man Utd, Matt Rawlings at Arsenal.  When he left Arsenal he came back to Mangotsfield....I had to mark him in his first game back.  I had quite a comfortable game against him, but he lost me twice....in the area....2-0.  He did all the basics really well.

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2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

⬇️⬇️⬇️

Was just about to mention him too....he’s a bit younger than my age groups though, but same principle.  Steve Slocombe was a year or so younger than me, went to Coventry.

Vernon Lee was David Lee’s dad wasn’t he?

Again, much younger than me but you had Raphael Burke at Man Utd, Matt Rawlings at Arsenal.  When he left Arsenal he came back to Mangotsfield....I had to mark him in his first game back.  I had quite a comfortable game against him, but he lost me twice....in the area....2-0.  He did all the basics really well.

Raphael Burke!! What a total waste of talent he was!! Most players wouldn't be able to get near him and take the ball off him in a telephone box but for whatever reason he just didn't make it.

Edited by Numero Uno
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3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

⬇️⬇️⬇️

Was just about to mention him too....he’s a bit younger than my age groups though, but same principle.  Steve Slocombe was a year or so younger than me, went to Coventry.

Vernon Lee was David Lee’s dad wasn’t he?

Again, much younger than me but you had Raphael Burke at Man Utd, Matt Rawlings at Arsenal.  When he left Arsenal he came back to Mangotsfield....I had to mark him in his first game back.  I had quite a comfortable game against him, but he lost me twice....in the area....2-0.  He did all the basics really well.

Yes. Dave Lee was another one who should have made more of his career. He seemed to nosedive very quickly after leaving Chelsea.

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13 hours ago, Prinny said:

InpastyearsAshtonyateyoumayhavehadapointandimayevenhaveagreedwithyoubutunderffptheamountspentontheacademyteamistakenoutoftheequationifirecallcorrectlysoitdoesntmatter.

It's difficult to tell with a broken space bar if you're being genuine or not, but you I assume you realise there is no way the OP is Ashton Yate under a different moniker....unless Derek Acora has given him a hand on the other side....

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

⬇️⬇️⬇️

Was just about to mention him too....he’s a bit younger than my age groups though, but same principle.  Steve Slocombe was a year or so younger than me, went to Coventry.

Vernon Lee was David Lee’s dad wasn’t he?

Again, much younger than me but you had Raphael Burke at Man Utd, Matt Rawlings at Arsenal.  When he left Arsenal he came back to Mangotsfield....I had to mark him in his first game back.  I had quite a comfortable game against him, but he lost me twice....in the area....2-0.  He did all the basics really well.

Yeah that’s right, David’s Dad. 
Burke and Rawlings were big names locally back then! 

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57 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

All citys apprentices were local lads in the late 80s early 90s.

Do you think this was the case at top clubs then?

Best player in my school went to forest, in 1990, he was on 40 quid a week.

Diffrent times.

Makes me wonder how Bobby Ford, a Bedminster lad.. ended up signing pro at Oxford before captaining Sheff Utd

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How productive do you expect an academy to be? What other success stories are out there better then ours?

The general Output of any academy is in sorting the wheat from The not so good wheat and mainly producing mediocre footballers to populate the 2,000+ squad berths below the premier league down to national regional Levels. You are in it however for the shining occasional stones that you might be able to turn into diamonds

Edited by Fjmcity
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1 minute ago, Fjmcity said:

How productive to you expect and academy to be? What other success stories are there out there better then ours?

The general Output of any academy is in sorting the wheat from The not so good wheat and mainly producing mediocre footballers to populate the 2,000+ squad berths below the premier league down to national regional Levels. You are in it however for the shining occasional stones that you might be able to turn into diamonds

Spot on.

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

 

Yes, when I look back to my school days (mid-80s), it was Forest, Watford, Southampton, Norwich, etc.  It wasn’t regional development hubs....it was lots of miles.  I remember the the likes of Richard Ford (ex-Forest Green) going to Forest, Jason Drysdale (Speedie’s son) to Watford, Phil Underhill (Graham’s younger brother) to Southampton, Andy Johnson to Norwich, David Lee to Chelsea, Julian Dicks to Birmingham, etc.  All players I played with or against except Andy Johnson, who was a bit younger.  I’m sure there were loads more too.

That's very true... Forest used to Scout a lot when I played boys football. My mate got spotted in the same team and ending up signing for Forest when under Clough. Never saw City Scouts once. I ended up having a trial at Swindon :laugh:...stuck me at LB against a lad who ended up at WBA...can't remember his name now...rang rings round me...bearing in mind they played everyone out of position which was weird. Had never played LB in my life :laugh:. Safe to say I never heard back from them :laugh:

Forest and WBA were always at games locally.

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3 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Very true spud, infact in boys football or schools in south bristol, it was rovers scouts.

Again look at the players they got from this side of the river then.

True, there was a period when our scouting seemed to be non-existent. Funnily enough it was the last period, if you can remember back that far, when Rovers used to be above us in the league at times!!

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