Our Academy a failure ?

[Numero Uno]

10 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Well spotted that uno.

Stewart meechem, browning, wilmott, who came in from sunday football.

All south bristol.

There was that time when they used to crow about being the "Family Club" (now the "Adams Family Club") when the general view was that we would try and buy our way to the next level whereas they did it with Bristolian players.......and you have to say that back then the Gas had a point. The tables have turned big time in that their Academy is producing next to nothing atm and despite the moans of a few on here you can see evidence ours is producing at plenty of grounds on a Saturday.

I also remember only a few years back, not that long ago at all, when the Gas had some gobshite Head Academy Coach who, after they beat City heavily in one game (I'm sure it was the age group containing Sam Bell and Riley Towler), claimed that Rovers had the best young talent in Bristol IN EVERY AGE GROUP............typical Gas bluster totally ruined by facts and subsequent events of course.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

Raphael Burke!! What a total waste of talent he was!! Most players wouldn't be able to get near him and take the ball off him in a telephone box but for whatever reason he just didn't make it.

I played against him.  He was at Odd Down, I was at Brislington.  All the tricks, pointless trying to get it off him.  But he couldn’t pass or cross, so we just let him give the ball away.

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

Yes. Dave Lee was another one who should have made more of his career. He seemed to nosedive very quickly after leaving Chelsea.

Broke his leg, was never the same.  Hoddle was touting him for an England call up when he had him playing sweeper for Chelsea.

57 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Yes played against him, in a ashton park bedminster down derby!

Good kid bobby.

One that was stole, darren peacock by newport of all teams!

Was in my bruvs class at school.  Rovers let him go, broke his leg a couple of times, picked up by Newport, then Hereford....then QPR.  At school I didn’t think he was “that great”, he was good don’t get me wrong, but he was big...and that mattered at youth levels.

Taking me back in time this morning

[Numero Uno]

41 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Well spotted that uno.

Stewart meechem, browning, wilmott, who came in from sunday football.

All south bristol.

Steve Yates, Brislington School too.

[Chappers]

4 hours ago, City oz said:

I’m not throwing my dummy out of the pram or knocking the academy.  I’m nearly stating the club had an opportunity to engage a head coach of quality several months back and they failed to do it,

And how exactly do you know they haven’t?

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

Steve Yates, Brislington School too.

Played against him from 10+.  Nothing special (relative to other good players at school and youth level), but good habits and top attitude.  Had a great career.

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Played against him from 10+.  Nothing special (relative to other good players at school and youth level), but good habits and top attitude.  Had a great career.

He couldn’t have been that special back then because I scored against Bris when he was playing. Obviously a late developer!!!

[spudski]

The one local player who always amazed me at how he became a Pro and played for Liverpool for many years was Nicky Tanner.

Played against him many times when he was at Bromley Heath and Mango's. He was very average in the games I played against him...in fact I nutmegged him twice in the same game...he then booted me in frustration

Always scratched my head and laughed when he was at Liverpool. I was like...wtf

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

The one local player who always amazed me at how he became a Pro and played for Liverpool for many years was Nicky Tanner.

Played against him many times when he was at Bromley Heath and Mango's. He was very average in the games I played against him...in fact I nutmegged him twice in the same game...he then booted me in frustration

Always scratched my head and laughed when he was at Liverpool. I was like...wtf

Maybe it was you being a better player than you thought you were!!

[Davefevs]

28 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

He couldn’t have been that special back then because I scored against Bris when he was playing. Obviously a late developer!!!

What school were you, I was ‘Engrove!

He played for Fair Furlong on Saturdays, who picked up most of the good kids around our way.

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

What school were you, I was ‘Engrove!

He played for Fair Furlong on Saturdays, who picked up most of the good kids around our way.

Bemmy Down. I remember back then that City and Rovers basically had feeder clubs at Youth level back then?

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Bemmy Down. I remember back then that City and Rovers basically had feeder clubs at Youth level back then?

West Town and Parkway were the Sunday teams weren’t they.  They got disbanded though.

Are you around 50 then?  I was 1981-86....we got to finals in the second year, lost to Bris, finals in 3rd year, lost to Speedwell, won Woodcock Shield in 4th year, beating Portway.

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

West Town and Parkway were the Sunday teams weren’t they.  They got disbanded though.

Are you around 50 then?  I was 1981-86....we got to finals in the second year, lost to Bris, finals in 3rd year, lost to Speedwell, won Woodcock Shield in 4th year, beating Portway.

That was the teams I remember. Yeah, 50. I remember picking up a nasty ankle injury that needed stitches against Hengrove.....might have been you that did it then.

[downendcity]

16 hours ago, Rich said:

To some degree, the quote about our 2nd and 3rd keepers somewhat backs up the OP's thoughts. 

I agree with him, we have produced diddly squat for the time and effort put into this project over the years. Other teams seem to find a way of producing talent.

I think this is also a geographical problem as well. Going back a few years, (quite a few actually), people were arguing the benefits of a team filled with local players. I checked to see how many players were born in this region and playing league football. 26 was the number and they were mostly playing third and fourth tier football with a couple in the 2nd tier. Using their argument, we'd have had a third/fourth tier team. As a comparison, I checked Liverpool born players. 92 were registered, with forty odd playing in the top two tiers. Why don't we produce them in the area should be the question.

You seem to imply that we are in the minority in this respect.

I don't know the stats myself, so am happy to be corrected you or by any that do, but suspect that while some teams seem to find a way of producing talent, most do not - certainly not any better or more than than us. 

 

 

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

That was the teams I remember. Yeah, 50. I remember picking up a nasty ankle injury that needed stitches against Hengrove.....might have been you that did it then.

Unlikely, I was a weedy midfielder (late developer who grew and grew and turned in a centre-half).

[Rich]

4 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

Do you disagree that you have to be insanely good and a right physical specimen at 18/19 to be up to Championship football? If not then you must surely see why these boys are sent to the lower leagues first? It's obvious isn't it?

Where have I ever intimated such rubbish as that? You are the person mentioning those younger unestablished players as examples of the academy being successful. 

I wouldn't claim success of any player until they were established players and then I'd assess their playing level as well. There's no point running an academy if it doesn't provide players that are then used to strengthen the teams position, whether that is directly or by providing funding. Sadly, we as a club have not done that anywhere near enough, to date. I sincerely hope it does in the future.

[downendcity]

33 minutes ago, spudski said:

The one local player who always amazed me at how he became a Pro and played for Liverpool for many years was Nicky Tanner.

Played against him many times when he was at Bromley Heath and Mango's. He was very average in the games I played against him...in fact I nutmegged him twice in the same game...he then booted me in frustration

Always scratched my head and laughed when he was at Liverpool. I was like...wtf

Years ago I played in the Sussex County league and at the end of season an ex Brighton player ( name escapes me) played a few end of season games for us.

Chatting to him in the bar, he gave a few interesting insights into pro football ( Brighton were in the old 1st Division at that time) but one thing he said was that were  lots of players in the football league that were no better, ability wise, than many players at the level we were playing. What those players had was the discipline to train and reach a level of fitness much higher than we knew and also the discipline to carry out managers instructions and do the job they were asked, rather than wanting to do their own thing. He went on to say that conversely,  plenty of players with all the  ability couldn’t make it in pro football because they lacked the discipline to follow instructions and play within a system.

He also said that playing football for a living is a totally different thing to playing football as your recreation and release from the day job.

 

 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Years ago I played in the Sussex County league and at the end of season an ex Brighton player ( name escapes me) played a few end of season games for us.

Chatting to him in the bar, he gave a few interesting insights into pro football ( Brighton were in the old 1st Division at that time) but one thing he said was that were  lots of players in the football league that were no better, ability wise, than many players at the level we were playing. What those players had was the discipline to train and reach a level of fitness much higher than we knew and also the discipline to carry out managers instructions and do the job they were asked, rather than wanting to do their own thing. He went on to say that conversely,  plenty of players with all the  ability couldn’t make it in pro football because they lacked the discipline to follow instructions and play within a system.

He also said that playing football for a living is a totally different thing to playing football as your recreation and release from the day job.

 

 

So, so true.  It’s a big sacrifice to be a pro, and many aren’t prepared to make that sacrifice.

[Numero Uno]

17 minutes ago, Rich said:

Where have I ever intimated such rubbish as that? You are the person mentioning those younger unestablished players as examples of the academy being successful. 

I wouldn't claim success of any player until they were established players and then I'd assess their playing level as well. There's no point running an academy if it doesn't provide players that are then used to strengthen the teams position, whether that is directly or by providing funding. Sadly, we as a club have not done that anywhere near enough, to date. I sincerely hope it does in the future.

One of your criticisms is that we have lads filling up places in the lower leagues. I am saying that is a necessity in the vast majority of cases (only Lloyd Kelly has bucked that trend which, as an England age group player, you might expect). Hopefully someone like Riley Towler can follow his path which would be a huge success in my view. Ultimately some of these lads will turn out to be no better than lower league players (but we will still recoup our outlay on them by way of transfer fee) and some of them will come back and be involved in the first team team/squad like Vyner, Semenyo and O'Leary have been recently and like Bryan and Reid have been in the past. The players who are good enough will have a significantly higher transfer value than our outlay on them.

The number of players we have in the lower leagues (it's several not one or two) perhaps indicates that the Academy is surely heading in a direction that increases our chances of producing Championship standard players? I think it does anyway. Forget his Gas connections I read what Darryl Clarke says about the job Tinnion is doing and I take that as a very positive sign for the future.

[Numero Uno]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

So, so true.  It’s a big sacrifice to be a pro, and many aren’t prepared to make that sacrifice.

In addition some have an education, a £50K per year job and earn £20K from playing football part time. Why would they join Accrington Stanley for £45K per year just for the "kudos" of being a professional footballer? I know some lads would sacrifice the money and choose the latter but there are many who would take the former option.

[Rich]

4 hours ago, Lrrr said:

Your expectations seem wildly outlandish tbh, you discount O'Leary whose played 20 odd games for the first team which is fine as a keeper given the lack of substitute opportunities, you discount Semenyo whose played very well this season even with a lack of goals. It doesn't matter how Vyner got to the first team just that he's playing there at the moment, if he hypothetically ended up being our player of the season would it be discounted on 'oh he only got games because someone else got injured'? Of course it wouldn't be. 

'The others are just speculation that they'll make it'..... In other words you have no ability to say any of them won't be good enough, you just flat out don't know.

The other reason your expectations appear to be outlandish is because theres no appreciation for just how few academy products become first team regulars if you're discounting O'Leary, Semenyo and Vyner. Derby are a massive standout currently at our level with who they have but thats partly because Derby have one of the better academies in the country and the resources that go into their academy vastly exceeds the likes of ours. Outside one or two other clubs you'd find most clubs are at best on our level of producing 2 or 3 regular first team players over a 5 year period so we're not doing poorly by any stretch. The championship has moved on largely from the days where you can expect an 18/19 year old to come in and excel because of the physical demands of the game now.

If my expectations are outlandish, then there appears no future for our club. We have to produce enough players to form the nucleus of our team at this level and hopefully to perform at a higher level. At that point we can top it up with whatever is needed. At this point in time, which is what I'm referring to and not some speculative prediction, we do not produce enough from our academy to move us forward. 
 

If I have no ability to say that those players might not make it, then you have no ability to say those players will make it, you just flat out don't know. It is pure speculation on both our parts. The odds are though that players like O'leary, will not make it at this level. Sadly I've seen enough of him in those games played for us to make an assessment on his ability. That is, that he is not good enough for this level of football or the next level up, which is where we as a club should be aiming for. I hope he proves me wrong but, doubt he will. 

It makes me wonder where all the players come from that perform at these levels, if there aren't many clubs being successful at their respective academies. Seriously, where have all the players come from that make up the thirty odd squad members of each team, if they haven't come through some other clubs academy. They can't all have come from the cast offs of the premier league clubs academies can they?

[Rich]

19 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

One of your criticisms is that we have lads filling up places in the lower leagues. I am saying that is a necessity in the vast majority of cases (only Lloyd Kelly has bucked that trend which, as an England age group player, you might expect). Hopefully someone like Riley Towler can follow his path which would be a huge success in my view. Ultimately some of these lads will turn out to be no better than lower league players (but we will still recoup our outlay on them by way of transfer fee) and some of them will come back and be involved in the first team team/squad like Vyner, Semenyo and O'Leary have been recently and like Bryan and Reid have been in the past. The players who are good enough will have a significantly higher transfer value than our outlay on them.

The number of players we have in the lower leagues (it's several not one or two) perhaps indicates that the Academy is surely heading in a direction that increases our chances of producing Championship standard players? I think it does anyway. Forget his Gas connections I read what Darryl Clarke says about the job Tinnion is doing and I take that as a very positive sign for the future.

I made no criticism of our lads filling up the lower leagues. I said that we have to produce players that are better than that to move forward, not just produce players to fill up the lower leagues.

I really do hope our academy produces more players that can perform at higher levels, what I'm saying is that historically to date we have not produced enough.

[Rich]

48 minutes ago, downendcity said:

You seem to imply that we are in the minority in this respect.

I don't know the stats myself, so am happy to be corrected you or by any that do, but suspect that while some teams seem to find a way of producing talent, most do not - certainly not any better or more than than us. 

 

 

I'm not implying anything of the sort. I'm suggesting that perhaps we need to improve our output of players, both in numbers and quality. Am I wrong to want it to improve? I seem to be being criticised for wanting better for my club. I'm not happy or satisfied with what we've produced to date and think it should improve. That's not being critical of anyone in particular, which I haven't been, I just want an improvement. If people are happy with three players of proven championship quality, none of them playing for us, over a ten year period then that's up to them.

[Merrick's Marvels]

3 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

There was that time when they used to crow about being the "Family Club" (now the "Adams Family Club") when the general view was that we would try and buy our way to the next level whereas they did it with Bristolian players.......and you have to say that back then the Gas had a point. 

I agree with your post and also agree the perception of "the family club" was that they were "more Bristolian".

But that's all it was - perception.

The truth is - that was bollox. The truth is, Gass didn't have a point at all and were, surprise surprise, talking shee-ite.

I don't know which era in particular you're thinking of, but if it's the late 80s/early 90s:

Llewellyn, Newman (not Bristolian but as good as damn it), Mardon, Bryant, Honor

Hollowhead, Penrice, Yates, Purnell, Browning.

They bought just as many non-Bristolian players as we did.

The difference was they shopped in the bargain basement, buying  players you'd never heard of and from clubs you'd never heard of. We bought players you had heard of (Shelton, Bailey) and from clubs you had heard of (Leeds United etc). This gave the impression we were big time charlie and didn't give 2 hoots about local lads. That impression was bollox. 

But rather than look at the facts to base an opinion on, Gass everywhere preferred to bury their heads in the sand and talk shee-ite out their gassholes. 

Twas ever thus

 

[Port Said Red]

Only the coaches can answer this question really. You can only judge the Academy on results if you know what they are. What we don't know is whether talented players are being held back or whether they have improved lads with average talent to a better level.

[Oh Louie louie]

They were that bristolian, in that era they played in bath.

 

 

[Lrrr]

3 minutes ago, Rich said:

If my expectations are outlandish, then there appears no future for our club.

Just slightly dramatic.... 

You only accept Reid/Bryan/Kelly as worthy players, fact is they were all stand outs for the division let alone for just us. O'Leary (same age as Bobby in his breakout season with a later peak for his position) is fine as a #2 as said, we've seen from him games like Villa that he's definitely got the potential.

Barely any, if any at all teams at our level have a nucleus of the squad as academy players, Derby and Swansea probably come close, Derby one of the best academies in the country and Swansea the benefit of only competing with Cardiff in Wales and years as a Cat 1 academy have allowed them to develop players. 

You wonder where all the players come from? There's 92 clubs, add players moving up from non-league and coming in from abroad, a players career is over 10 years if they play that long, not hard to work out when there's academy graduates each year from 92 clubs and those who don't get a deal at their club a lot find a deal somewhere else. Just looking at our squad and British based players (foreign players also being a big impact on development of academy players)

• Bentley - Arsenal academy before being released
• Dasilva - Chelsea after being pinched from Luton
• Baker - Villa academy
• Walsh - Everton
• Williams - Everton
• Rowe - Man Utd before being released 
• Brunt - Middlesbrough (who were Prem at the time and now Cat 1, 0 appearances for 1st team)

A problem is any time an academy player (can replace with 'young' player) shows promise they're bought by someone higher up, not just with us, our example is Kelly not even playing a full seasons worth of games. Take Rochdale and Luke Matherson as an example, 18 year old (now) bought in his first proper season of first team football last season by Wolves in January after less than 25 first team appearances. The main thing for clubs like us to be smarter in the transfer market like Brentford and we've seen examples of it working with us, Bakinson purchased young, supposedly around the £500,000 mark, that now looks a bargain, sticking Semenyo here as his academy credentials get questioned, highlighted and brought in for nothing at 18. Webster £4m ish but sold for £20m, Williams (hopefully), Walsh (hopefully), Paterson even as a 24 year old supposedly costing around £700,000. This is what is going to determine the success of our club and then be able to supplement it with academy players where we can, not the other way around. 

 

[Oh Louie louie]

The era i would be talking about was late 80s to 90s,

All the names you mentioned merrick, had long been first teamers then.

So yes wrong era.

[Rich]

3 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Just slightly dramatic.... 

You only accept Reid/Bryan/Kelly as worthy players, fact is they were all stand outs for the division let alone for just us. O'Leary (same age as Bobby in his breakout season with a later peak for his position) is fine as a #2 as said, we've seen from him games like Villa that he's definitely got the potential.

Barely any, if any at all teams at our level have a nucleus of the squad as academy players, Derby and Swansea probably come close, Derby one of the best academies in the country and Swansea the benefit of only competing with Cardiff in Wales and years as a Cat 1 academy have allowed them to develop players. 

You wonder where all the players come from? There's 92 clubs, add players moving up from non-league and coming in from abroad, a players career is over 10 years if they play that long, not hard to work out when there's academy graduates each year from 92 clubs and those who don't get a deal at their club a lot find a deal somewhere else. Just looking at our squad and British based players (foreign players also being a big impact on development of academy players)

• Bentley - Arsenal academy before being released
• Dasilva - Chelsea after being pinched from Luton
• Baker - Villa academy
• Walsh - Everton
• Williams - Everton
• Rowe - Man Utd before being released 
• Brunt - Middlesbrough (who were Prem at the time and now Cat 1, 0 appearances for 1st team)

A problem is any time an academy player (can replace with 'young' player) shows promise they're bought by someone higher up, not just with us, our example is Kelly not even playing a full seasons worth of games. Take Rochdale and Luke Matherson as an example, 18 year old (now) bought in his first proper season of first team football last season by Wolves in January after less than 25 first team appearances. The main thing for clubs like us to be smarter in the transfer market like Brentford and we've seen examples of it working with us, Bakinson purchased young, supposedly around the £500,000 mark, that now looks a bargain, sticking Semenyo here as his academy credentials get questioned, highlighted and brought in for nothing at 18. Webster £4m ish but sold for £20m, Williams (hopefully), Walsh (hopefully), Paterson even as a 24 year old supposedly costing around £700,000. This is what is going to determine the success of our club and then be able to supplement it with academy players where we can, not the other way around. 

 

You have taken my statement literally to use it as a put down. It was a scenario based on what we've produced so far. 

Are you happy with the number of players our club has produced and their contribution to our team over the last ten years?

Do you think the players now in our squad who have come from our academy will be the nucleus of our future team to help move us to a higher level?

 

If we can produce one player a season or one every two seasons, then we have a chance to supplement them with the others you describe. 

Hopefully our financial input will start to show real improvements for the future.

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

Maybe it was you being a better player than you thought you were!!

Unfortunately no...would never have got to the required fitness to have been Pro at football. Enjoyed life outside of it too much. Could of turned Pro at Golf...but chose not to. My only regret in life. Eventually turned Pro at Skiing...so got to do one sport professionally :laugh:

[Oh Louie louie]

Am i right in thinking chris honour, got sent off for a bad challenge, and joe got rid?