Today is make it or break it

[tin]

9 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

And even so, you can’t give DH the credit for the substitutes that he made & when he made them?

He’s going to make mistakes, name me one manager who doesn’t / hasn’t? No one is perfect in this game, if they were they’d be winning every game & every tournament. It doesn’t happen so why are you & anybody else expecting the impossible from someone?

DH is limited on his team selection because of unforeseen injuries & a ridiculous fixture schedule & a small matter of a global pandemic that is affecting the financial aspect of the club. 
I’d suggest he’s done very well so far this season, the football is better than what was put on display under LJ for his last 18 months or so of his time in charge &  despite him having arguably less tools at his disposal, he’s done alright.

And for the record, how’s the god like Hughton getting on at Forest? Despite him having arguably a better squad at his disposal? 

I really do struggle to understand some people & what they truly expect from life, not one pundit or bookie expected us to be above mid table & yet there are some on here that seem to expect us to be top of the league, never losing a game! Do you maybe think your expectations are a little unrealistic?

@Tipps69 just like recent games, Holden put on more forwards and lumped it to them in hope. I will give him credit for making changes earlier, but I did not see a clear plan B. He's done the same thing every time we've been chasing a game this season. We were abject before Semenyo's introduction, IMO. 

I'm not expecting him to be perfect, of course he will make mistakes along the way. I do, however, expect him to learn quickly from his mistakes. Whether the Championship is the place to cut your teeth is another debate, though. Neither do I expect us to win every game. Win, lose or draw I do expect us to have a go at teams (like we did at Stoke or for 45 minutes at Bournemouth) and see clear tactical plans in place.

You're right to say the football is generally better than under LJ, it couldn't get much worse. Mind you, the number of basic defensive errors occuring in every game has increased under Holden and I see nothing to upgrade my prediction of a lower mid-table finish for as long as those keep happening in every game. 

As for Forest, didn't they suffer their first defeat since Hughton took over last night? I don't watch Forest but as an outsider looking in, they look pretty solid. If you want to compare the results of Holden and Hughton, wait until the end of next season. 

I've already touched on my expectations - around a 16th-place finish and I'll be happy to be entertained. Comments like "our target is to score 90 goals this season" from Nakhi Wells on Sound of the City, or Mark Ashton saying "it's achievable to challenge for promotion this season" do nothing to manage others' expectations, though. 

[Tipps69]

19 minutes ago, tin said:

@Tipps69 just like recent games, Holden put on more forwards and lumped it to them in hope. I will give him credit for making changes earlier, but I did not see a clear plan B. He's done the same thing every time we've been chasing a game this season. We were abject before Semenyo's introduction, IMO. 

I'm not expecting him to be perfect, of course he will make mistakes along the way. I do, however, expect him to learn quickly from his mistakes. Whether the Championship is the place to cut your teeth is another debate, though. Neither do I expect us to win every game. Win, lose or draw I do expect us to have a go at teams (like we did at Stoke or for 45 minutes at Bournemouth) and see clear tactical plans in place.

You're right to say the football is generally better than under LJ, it couldn't get much worse. Mind you, the number of basic defensive errors occuring in every game has increased under Holden and I see nothing to upgrade my prediction of a lower mid-table finish for as long as those keep happening in every game. 

As for Forest, didn't they suffer their first defeat since Hughton took over last night? I don't watch Forest but as an outsider looking in, they look pretty solid. If you want to compare the results of Holden and Hughton, wait until the end of next season. 

I've already touched on my expectations - around a 16th-place finish and I'll be happy to be entertained. Comments like "our target is to score 90 goals this season" from Nakhi Wells on Sound of the City, or Mark Ashton saying "it's achievable to challenge for promotion this season" do nothing to manage others' expectations, though. 

How can DH be held accountable for players individual mistakes? That’s human nature & part of the joys of the game, if players didn’t make mistakes, they wouldn’t be playing for us, similarly if they make lots of mistakes, they will likely be playing at a lower level but as with DH, these players are learning all the time. DH has implemented a new system upon most of them & these things take time to perfect plus you have to take into consideration that there was less of a pre-season & with matches coming more frequently because of the situation throughout the world, there is less time for training & to implement what he wants.

I will admit I’ve had concerns about DH’s willingness to stick stubbornly to 3-5-2 & to the same players where possible but I think a lot of that comes down to how things went for us under LJ, people constantly complained about the chopping & changing of formations & player selections, so DH has tried to appease those issues by wanting to stick to one system & the same players but that would of been easier without the unforeseen injuries & with a normal schedule. But DH has been pro-active upon dealing with situations, let’s not forget, he is learning all the time & there is probably a part of him that feels like every decision he makes is being scrutinised, so if he makes a substitute too early, people will moan that he hasn’t given the players a chance to rectify the situation, make a substitute too late & he wasn’t pro-active enough & didn’t allow the subs enough time to influence the game.

DH said from the outset that he wanted to play attacking football, if we are going to lose 1-0, we may as well lose 3-0 seems to be his philosophy & that idea seems to be working as more often than not it has had an outcome on games so far. And even if you look at the table now, we have a positive goal difference, despite having not won a game in 5 previously, under LJ we were rarely on a par with teams around us for goal difference, it’s a massive positive in my eyes.

[tin]

8 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

How can DH be held accountable for players individual mistakes? That’s human nature & part of the joys of the game, if players didn’t make mistakes, they wouldn’t be playing for us, similarly if they make lots of mistakes, they will likely be playing at a lower level but as with DH, these players are learning all the time. DH has implemented a new system upon most of them & these things take time to perfect plus you have to take into consideration that there was less of a pre-season & with matches coming more frequently because of the situation throughout the world, there is less time for training & to implement what he wants.

I will admit I’ve had concerns about DH’s willingness to stick stubbornly to 3-5-2 & to the same players where possible but I think a lot of that comes down to how things went for us under LJ, people constantly complained about the chopping & changing of formations & player selections, so DH has tried to appease those issues by wanting to stick to one system & the same players but that would of been easier without the unforeseen injuries & with a normal schedule. But DH has been pro-active upon dealing with situations, let’s not forget, he is learning all the time & there is probably a part of him that feels like every decision he makes is being scrutinised, so if he makes a substitute too early, people will moan that he hasn’t given the players a chance to rectify the situation, make a substitute too late & he wasn’t pro-active enough & didn’t allow the subs enough time to influence the game.

DH said from the outset that he wanted to play attacking football, if we are going to lose 1-0, we may as well lose 3-0 seems to be his philosophy & that idea seems to be working as more often than not it has had an outcome on games so far. And even if you look at the table now, we have a positive goal difference, despite having not won a game in 5 previously, under LJ we were rarely on a par with teams around us for goal difference, it’s a massive positive in my eyes.

How can Holden be accountable for individual mistakes? You've partially answered your own question. It comes down to how he's setting the team up with the players available. Rowe is not a CB and cost us a goal last night, Moore is not a LCB and cost us a goal against Norwich, to give two examples. The lack of communication among the back three is a major concern, evidenced again by Rowe and Dasilva going for the same ball on the halfway line last night. 

As I've said previously, I like that Holden has identified a clear system. For the best part of the last four games, certainly since Mawson's injury, he hasn't had the players to suit that system. So why try and shoehorn the likes of Rowe or Moore into LCB? Likewise with Weimann and Pato in CM, that left us far too open. Those two, when fit, need to play further forward or not at all. 

I hope he is learning all the time. Let's see how he sets the XI on Friday. If he did learn from last night, reverting to a back four makes sense with the players we have available. There's no shame in abandoning Plan A if you have a clear Plan B, especially if you don't have the tools to implement Plan A. That would show he's learning, recognises the situation and is adaptable, IMO. The jury is very much out. We're one point better off than we were after 10 games last year. 

[Tipps69]

50 minutes ago, tin said:

How can Holden be accountable for individual mistakes? You've partially answered your own question. It comes down to how he's setting the team up with the players available. Rowe is not a CB and cost us a goal last night, Moore is not a LCB and cost us a goal against Norwich, to give two examples. The lack of communication among the back three is a major concern, evidenced again by Rowe and Dasilva going for the same ball on the halfway line last night. Seriously? There really isn’t that much difference between playing left centre back to playing right centre back! A professional should be able to do it. So can we use this as a reason for why Wells doesn’t seem to be performing, is he playing on the wrong side of the front two? And if you are going to blame Moore because he’s not a left centre back then who plays there because Vyner or Kalas aren’t left centre backs either! Mawson was brought in to replace the other left centre back we had (Baker) but as we know, both are injured so someone in the formation being picked has to play there.

And if we change to a back four, someone still has to play left sided centre back, No? There is literally a couple of feet between a back four & a back three & the position a player has to take up, it’s not like Moore is asked to play completely out of position.

Mistakes happen, I’m not sure how you can hold DH accountable for them, these are professional players who should know how to communicate (Rowe / Dasilva’s mistake last night), I fail to see how DH can be held accountable for it.

As I've said previously, I like that Holden has identified a clear system. For the best part of the last four games, certainly since Mawson's injury, he hasn't had the players to suit that system. So why try and shoehorn the likes of Rowe or Moore into LCB? Likewise with Weimann and Pato in CM, that left us far too open. Those two, when fit, need to play further forward or not at all. Because of the options he available to him & the reasons I’ve listed above.

I hope he is learning all the time. Let's see how he sets the XI on Friday. If he did learn from last night, reverting to a back four makes sense with the players we have available. There's no shame in abandoning Plan A if you have a clear Plan B, especially if you don't have the tools to implement Plan A. That would show he's learning, recognises the situation and is adaptable, IMO. The jury is very much out. We're one point better off than we were after 10 games last year. We’re one point better off under a manager / head coach than we were under a manager that had been here for 4 years & had had numerous transfer windows to build his own team, DH has had kind of one window! And as I’ve already discussed elsewhere with less options available to him through no fault of his own. When DH was appointed did you honestly expect of think we would be where we are now & have so many points on the board? It isn’t as simple as saying we are going to play this way & everyone is automatically able to play that formation, it takes time, DH has had 10 league games, not even quarter of a season!

 

[Davefevs]

7 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

Seriously? There really isn’t that much difference between playing left centre back to playing right centre back! A professional should be able to do it. 

Respectfully I disagree massively....especially if you are predominantly one-footed.  The angles are different both with and without the ball.  Why do you think Flint made Bailey Wright play Left sided CB in a two...not even a three!!

Your passing angles are changed.  For a right footer playing LCB Your default action to go one way or the other under pressure results in either you going onto your weaker foot or coming inside onto your stronger food (but into trouble).

Always worth watching Bailey Wright first 15 minutes v Sunderland in that infamous 3-3.  They knew he was crap with his left foot, so showed him inside onto his right - but into trouble, where they pressed him massively.

[Tipps69]

Honestly Dave?

How many times in the past have clubs worried about making sure they had a left footed centre half? It’s a more modern thing but it really isn’t a necessity. Let’s forget the fact that these players are professionals & as such they should be able to do their profession with both feet!

Can you honestly tell me that Pender, Humphries, Moyes, Mardon, Bryant, Newman, Osman, Shail, Carey, Taylor, Coles, Fontaine, McCombe & Caulker etc couldn’t play left centre half? They had to have a specific player to play that position? Honestly? It always used to be a case that our biggest centre back would mark their biggest striker so as to not get done over by balls in the air & as a result the more adept defender on the floor picked up the better striker on the floor, other wise the opposition would find you out massively by destroying you with one simple ball! Could you imagine Shaun Taylor going up against Gary Penrice type striker while Fontaine would be left to a Devon White type striker? It would never of happened.

Lets take a look on Friday & see who Morrison picks up for Cardiff, I can assure you he isn’t planning on running around chasing Nahki Wells or Semenyo  for 90 minutes while his team mate gets bullied by Martin or Diedhiou!

Soon you’ll be telling me that a midfielder didn’t play well because he was on the left side of the centre or as I pointed out, Wells is unhappy because he’s being asked to play the wrong side as a striker!

These are professional footballers not school kids! Being played 10 yards away from your ideal position really shouldn’t make that much difference, it’s not like you are asking a right-back to play left-back!

If we are defending in such a way then DH is coaching things wrong because technically a striker is going to look to take advantage of his style against a defender he can take advantage of, it is for the defence to act upon that by not giving the strikers the advantage.

Tommy Rowe will never be a centre half, no matter what foot he uses, Taylor Moore didn’t get done on Saturday because he was playing left side, he got done because he got caught ball watching & allowed a long ball to find the player that walked into the open space he left behind, Moore wasn’t at fault because he misplaced a pass, he was at fault because his defending was shit! Vyner got caught for the first goal against Norwich what’s the excuse there?

Rubbish defending is rubbish defending, end of story, the last 4 goals we have conceded haven’t been conceded because Taylor Moore was our left sided centre half & he’s misplaced a pass because the angles are too difficult for him to play, they have been conceded because we switched off 3 times against Norwich & Rowe & Dasilva went for the same ball on the half way line & allowed their right winger half the pitch to himself.

 

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Tipps69 said:

Honestly Dave?

How many times in the past have clubs worried about making sure they had a left footed centre half? It’s a more modern thing but it really isn’t a necessity. Let’s forget the fact that these players are professionals & as such they should be able to do their profession with both feet!

perhaps I didn’t explain myself very well....switching from RCB to LCB can be a massive change.  Some right footed players have always played left, that’s fine....it’s switching that’s the issue.

Can you honestly tell me that Pender, Humphries, Moyes, Mardon, Bryant, Newman, Osman, Shail, Carey, Taylor, Coles, Fontaine, McCombe & Caulker etc couldn’t play left centre half?

some of those are left footed.  Why do you think most players prefer a side?

They had to have a specific player to play that position? Honestly? It always used to be a case that our biggest centre back would mark their biggest striker so as to not get done over by balls in the air & as a result the more adept defender on the floor picked up the better striker on the floor, other wise the opposition would find you out massively by destroying you with one simple ball! Could you imagine Shaun Taylor going up against Gary Penrice type striker while Fontaine would be left to a Devon White type striker? It would never of happened.

yes, if you’re used to attacking every ball in the air you’ll be used to playing either side.  In a four I was the predominant ball winner, so I was used to either side of the pitch.  Again we are talking about a RCB who’s always played on the right, switching to playing LCB....not a player who tracks the ball or is used to going wherever.

Lets take a look on Friday & see who Morrison picks up for Cardiff, I can assure you he isn’t planning on running around chasing Nahki Wells or Semenyo  for 90 minutes while his team mate gets bullied by Martin or Diedhiou!

Morrison will try to play right side, and Nelson left side, but both are comfortable to attack the ball or not...less of a problem for both of them.  Pretty interesting that Flint had to play left of Morrison and was sh1te in comparison.  He’s a player who’s rarely had to play on his wrong side.  Why didn’t our best aerial ball winner  (Flint) go onto his left side and mark Sam Gallagher v Blackburn 2/3 seasons back.  Why didn’t he swap with Mags....because he wouldn’t play left side.  Why did Jason Steele hit every ball down Our left side that day.

Soon you’ll be telling me that a midfielder didn’t play well because he was on the left side of the centre or as I pointed out, Wells is unhappy because he’s being asked to play the wrong side as a striker!

These are professional footballers not school kids! Being played 10 yards away from your ideal position really shouldn’t make that much difference, it’s not like you are asking a right-back to play left-back!

LCB and RCB are often 20+ yards away.  The penalty area is 44 yards wide.  The 6 yard box is 22 yards wide.

If we are defending in such a way then DH is coaching things wrong because technically a striker is going to look to take advantage of his style against a defender he can take advantage of, it is for the defence to act upon that by not giving the strikers the advantage.

if I knew an opposition CB was only comfortable on one side, id exploit that as a manager.  I’d always play the nippy one against Flint and the tall one against his partner.  If they wouldn’t swap, I win the mini-tactical battle

Tommy Rowe will never be a centre half, no matter what foot he uses, Taylor Moore didn’t get done on Saturday because he was playing left side, he got done because he got caught ball watching & allowed a long ball to find the player that walked into the open space he left behind, Moore wasn’t at fault because he misplaced a pass, he was at fault because his defending was shit! Vyner got caught for the first goal against Norwich what’s the excuse there?

and quite possibly because he’s checking over different shoulders too.  Little things can make a big different.  How often did El-Abd get caught with balls over his shoulder when playing left side in our defence.  He’d spent a career / a very solid career at BHA playing on the right half of the pitch.  I joked that he might have had one glass eye!!

Rubbish defending is rubbish defending, end of story, the last 4 goals we have conceded haven’t been conceded because Taylor Moore was our left sided centre half & he’s misplaced a pass because the angles are too difficult for him to play, they have been conceded because we switched off 3 times against Norwich & Rowe & Dasilva went for the same ball on the half way line & allowed their right winger half the pitch to himself.

I’m not saying Taylor Moore’s reason was because of that, but I will argue that a player switching from RCB to LCB may find the change a different challenge.  Moore is used to playing central, he’s play plenty left of Williams last season. 

 

I think you missed the point I was making!

[Tipps69]

23 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think you missed the point I was making!

So in which case what do you do? Do you play a part-time left-back / central midfielder who has never played as a centre back (right or left side) in Rowe? Or do you play a central midfielder who has made less than 10 first team appearances in central defence in Bakinson or do you play a centre half at centre half?

Or, seeing as you were only ever going to be playing against 1 striker, do you not play 3 centre halves because it doesn’t take 3 of them to mark 1 striker or are our defenders so bad now that this is what we’ve resorted to?

Do we really need two spare centre halves? How many teams have we played so far this season that have played 2 strikers? Surely the idea is that only Kalas should be spare? Yet Pukki managed to walk off of both Moore & Vyner Saturday!

Maybe I’m changing the subject but I can’t believe the best option that we have available to us is as I’ve listed above!

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Tipps69 said:

So in which case what do you do? Do you play a part-time left-back / central midfielder who has never played as a centre back (right or left side) in Rowe?

nope, not if I was in charge....unless I thought we were gonna have tonnes of possession and I might want his prowess on the ball. 

Or do you play a central midfielder who has made less than 10 first team appearances in central defence in Bakinson or do you play a centre half at centre half?

nope too!

Or, seeing as you were only ever going to be playing against 1 striker, do you not play 3 centre halves because it doesn’t take 3 of them to mark 1 striker or are our defenders so bad now that this is what we’ve resorted to?

Voila . Although I don’t think it’s a case of playing an extra one because they are so bad.  I’d have still played Moore, if I was going to stay 3 at the back...but as the game panned out, I’m going to a back 4, moving Vyner to RB , push Hunt on, or push Vyner into midfield.  Probably gonna go 4132 based on starting 352, and get that CM3 closer to my forwards, and decrease pressing distances.

Do we really need two spare centre halves? How many teams have we played so far this season that have played 2 strikers? Surely the idea is that only Kalas should be spare? Yet Pukki managed to walk off of both Moore & Vyner Saturday!

no we don’t, you heard my rant last night....and saw my posts Saturday.  It’s not a blanket decision...it depends on the opponent, but Mbenza and Moroma played so wide, then there was no need for the extra CB.  Norwich is a little different because often Vrancic would get close to Pukki - but he didn’t play Saturday....but Placheta and Buendia came inside....but lots of issues Saturday.

Maybe I’m changing the subject but I can’t believe the best option that we have available to us is as I’ve listed above!

You are, but I’m letting you get away with it  good to have opinions.

 

[Tipps69]

33 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

That’s very kind of you, the Secretary of State for Osibistan