Bamford offside

[gordie]

Rugby has got this right where the refs infield decision is right unless var can show it is wrong and I think I am right in saying the ref has to ask for a review

[Alex_BCFC]

Why does no one at the top of football admit when they are wrong?

VAR is a huge shambles that should be scrapped - it should have been scrapped ages ago yet here we are with no improvement at all. No one knows the offside or handball rule anymore. It was meant to be about clearing up a clear and obvious error - to me that sounded ok. What we weren’t told is they’d spend 5 minutes drawing lines to see if someone’s toe was offside or not.

I like a bit of human error in the game - you get it with players and officials too. Makes it a better game. Why is it that other sports can make it work and football can’t - I’m sure it’s because of FIFA and heads of the game.

[reddoh]

4 minutes ago, Alex_BCFC said:

Why does no one at the top of football admit when they are wrong?

VAR is a huge shambles that should be scrapped - it should have been scrapped ages ago yet here we are with no improvement at all. No one knows the offside or handball rule anymore. It was meant to be about clearing up a clear and obvious error - to me that sounded ok. What we weren’t told is they’d spend 5 minutes drawing lines to see if someone’s toe was offside or not.

I like a bit of human error in the game - you get it with players and officials too. Makes it a better game. Why is it that other sports can make it work and football can’t - I’m sure it’s because of FIFA and heads of the game.

Money

[downendcity]

26 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Is that a part of the body you can legally score a goal with? It must be I suppose as I`ve definitely seen a lot of bellends scoring goals down the years.

Ross McCormick for instance.

I've often wondered if, in  the expression “ couldn’t hit a cows arse with a banjo’ , banjo is a euphemism. 

[1960maaan]

47 minutes ago, gordie said:

Rugby has got this right where the refs infield decision is right unless var can show it is wrong and I think I am right in saying the ref has to ask for a review

Rugby is light years aead of football when it comes to resect for Referees and rules. I loved seeing a 20 Stone Mountain question a Ref , only to apologise and call him sir when the REF  told him off.

 

40 minutes ago, Alex_BCFC said:

VAR is a huge shambles that should be scrapped

VAR in itself should be OK. But you have people in a little room somewhere frightened to over rule refs, yet, watch things in ultra slow motion for any touch to give a foul, and can't understand that touching someones shoulder doesn't make your legs flick up and you fall over.... yes I'm talking about YOU Mo Salah . 
The application has been so bad that it's made the whole system is not fit for purpose. 

The 2 incidents , for me the Leeds one is close. The part of the arm that can be penalised for handball is below the cuff on a short sleeve shirt - ish, so I guess above can be called offside. They don't have the tech , with accuracy to do what they are trying to do, it needs a complete overhaul.

The Theo Walcott one is just a complete joke. Defender misses the ball and takes the man, also uses excessive force , so many ways it's a pen.

[BS4 on Tour...]

3 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

You can only be offside with a part of the body that you can legally score with

And you can’t score legally with your arm 

 

[funky monkey]

2 hours ago, redsquirrel said:

why dont they just say the feet,would be so much easier to define position on the line

Was gonna post the same thing. Keep things simple

[JoeAman08]

Var is fine it just isn’t used correctly. Never for offsides, let the linesman decide. Then only for red card offences. Everything else a challenge 1 per team per half. The evidence must be clear to overturn refs decision. It isn’t hard. Replays are used in other leagues around the world efficiently and accurately. 

[Sheltons Army]

57 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

 

I was there BS4  

Cheating *******

Being spat at by Argentinians all game - a what a delightful day

[Mr Popodopolous]

Seems a fairly ridiculous decision but maybe letter of law...I dunno.

Good point by @Rinkadink the implementation is terrible. Principle I'm open minded on.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Wasn't there some offside for us late in 2018/19 at Aston Vllla, incredibly tight- Weimann offside, wasn't it his arm or something daft? 0-0 and would've been a game changer in such a game, with our counterattacking away from home style.

[Alex_BCFC]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Wasn't there some offside for us late in 2018/19 at Aston Vllla, incredibly tight- Weimann offside, wasn't it his arm or something daft? 0-0 and would've been a game changer in such a game, with our counterattacking away from home style.

There was but it was so tight that it was hardly clear and obvious - so I wouldn’t want VAR in the game to decide that. It was just before half time at 0-0 - not sure if it was his arm or not. 

[Major Isewater]

8 hours ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

https://twitter.com/CheapPanini/status/1325099133217202176?s=20https://twitter.com/CheapPanini/status/1325099133217202176?s=20

Close up on Tino Asprilla ?

[Portland Bill]

The tv companies are to blame, there was nothing wrong with our game. Then over the last ten years sky and the like have scrutinised every decision from five different angles, often in slow motion, they slaughtered referees without ever mentioning they get to see it in real time and most importantly, from only one angle.

Once the tv companies got fans spitting feathers about ‘unjust’ decisions ( which weren’t because referees have one angle and one pair of eyes) they then set upon wanting the ‘perfect game’.

Well, this is what you end up with. 

For the last 20 years on every given Saturday there has been people on here slating referees, now the same people are slating tv cameras, but..........it’s what a lot of people wanted, deal with it, because our game is being ruined. 

A game of football is played by 22 humans and officiated by 3 more, everyone of them make mistakes, why can’t we just accept this, then get rid of the technology and get our game back. 

[italian dave]

30 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

The tv companies are to blame, there was nothing wrong with our game. Then over the last ten years sky and the like have scrutinised every decision from five different angles, often in slow motion, they slaughtered referees without ever mentioning they get to see it in real time and most importantly, from only one angle.

Once the tv companies got fans spitting feathers about ‘unjust’ decisions ( which weren’t because referees have one angle and one pair of eyes) they then set upon wanting the ‘perfect game’.

Well, this is what you end up with. 

For the last 20 years on every given Saturday there has been people on here slating referees, now the same people are slating tv cameras, but..........it’s what a lot of people wanted, deal with it, because our game is being ruined. 

A game of football is played by 22 humans and officiated by 3 more, everyone of them make mistakes, why can’t we just accept this, then get rid of the technology and get our game back. 

Agree PB, especially the last bit. If VAR had eliminated all those weekly controversies about refereeing decisions then great. But it hasn't, its just replaced them with weekly controversies about VAR decisions. 

Its not just about mistakes, it's also about judgements. Let's leave the officials to make those judgements; they get it right most of the time (Keith Stroud excepted !) and when they don't they're no worse than VAR, and as you say generally people accept that. 

[Guest]

VAR reminds me of the saying: a bad workman always blames his tools.

VAR is simply a precision tool.
It is being used with precision rules.
If anyone deviates from these precision rules, they open themselves up to accusations of conspiracy, so the rules are implemented rigidly.

At some time, this decision making will be handed over to some AI process which will do everything in real time and there will be no delays in decisions. AI does not mean bad, it means taking the precision rules and adding common sense in. 

In the meantime we have to put up with the muppets who are in charge of our game getting the 'precision rules' right (and at the moment, things are not looking good that they can get it right) or putting VAR into the hands of a panel of judges and letting them make the call without the precision rules.

[steviestevieneville]

13 hours ago, Alex_BCFC said:

Why does no one at the top of football admit when they are wrong?

VAR is a huge shambles that should be scrapped - it should have been scrapped ages ago yet here we are with no improvement at all. No one knows the offside or handball rule anymore. It was meant to be about clearing up a clear and obvious error - to me that sounded ok. What we weren’t told is they’d spend 5 minutes drawing lines to see if someone’s toe was offside or not.

I like a bit of human error in the game - you get it with players and officials too. Makes it a better game. Why is it that other sports can make it work and football can’t - I’m sure it’s because of FIFA and heads of the game.

Not really for offsides but everything else , refs at var don’t want to be seen to criticise  Their on pitch mates. Cricket has embraced that side of  it and umpires decisions  are overturned all the time . It’s there to help them 

[Numero Uno]

2 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

The tv companies are to blame, there was nothing wrong with our game. Then over the last ten years sky and the like have scrutinised every decision from five different angles, often in slow motion, they slaughtered referees without ever mentioning they get to see it in real time and most importantly, from only one angle.

Once the tv companies got fans spitting feathers about ‘unjust’ decisions ( which weren’t because referees have one angle and one pair of eyes) they then set upon wanting the ‘perfect game’.

Well, this is what you end up with. 

For the last 20 years on every given Saturday there has been people on here slating referees, now the same people are slating tv cameras, but..........it’s what a lot of people wanted, deal with it, because our game is being ruined. 

A game of football is played by 22 humans and officiated by 3 more, everyone of them make mistakes, why can’t we just accept this, then get rid of the technology and get our game back. 

I would keep the goal line technology and scrap VAR the way things are going just as it is in the EFL. Certainly by the way the law SHOULD be intended Bamford was onside end of story. However anything involving Mike Dean ends up all being about Mike Dean......

[Alex_BCFC]

Another VAR shambles with handball today. Really poor that a ball can be blasted at you and then slowed down to show it hits you. Yes some will say it’s the rules but scrap VAR and they wouldn’t even be scrutinising decisions like that. 

Another one is when keepers come off their line. Literally no one ever cared before VAR. This nonsense should end now. 

[Red-Robbo]

TBH the problem is not the cameras, but the way they are used and the way the officials scrutinising them interpret them. 

I used to be in favour, but it's clear there is zero common sense applied, so you might as well scrap the system.

[lager loud]

Just now, Alex_BCFC said:

Another VAR shambles with handball today. Really poor that a ball can be blasted at you and then slowed down to show it hits you. Yes some will say it’s the rules but scrap VAR and they wouldn’t even be scrutinising decisions like that. 

Another one is when keepers come off their line. Literally no one ever cared before VAR. This nonsense should end now. 

As a Leicester fan (second to BCFC these days, but it’s my home town) I couldn’t agree more about the penalty. Ridiculous that anyone thinks the defender could have done anything to get out of the way of that. VAR is well on the way to ruining the game.

Not sure I agree with you on the keepers, though. They’ve changed that rule over the years to be a bit more sensible. But a keeper who is two or three yards off his line by the time the kick is taken (which certainly used to happen) gets an unfair advantage. And whether this rule is broken is a matter of observable objective fact, like goal-line calls. So it's harder for an idiotic official to make a stupid decision. The fact that refs rarely applied this rule doesn’t mean no-one cared, as anyone who’s watched a penalty shootout with me would confirm!

[Alex_BCFC]

2 minutes ago, lager loud said:

As a Leicester fan (second to BCFC these days, but it’s my home town) I couldn’t agree more about the penalty. Ridiculous that anyone thinks the defender could have done anything to get out of the way of that. VAR is well on the way to ruining the game.

Not sure I agree with you on the keepers, though. They’ve changed that rule over the years to be a bit more sensible. But a keeper who is two or three yards off his line by the time the kick is taken (which certainly used to happen) gets an unfair advantage. And whether this rule is broken is a matter of observable objective fact, like goal-line calls. So it's harder for an idiotic official to make a stupid decision. The fact that refs rarely applied this rule doesn’t mean no-one cared, as anyone who’s watched a penalty shootout with me would confirm!

A penalty shoot out is a bit different though. I mean a penalty in a normal game. There is very rarely any keepers coming miles off their line and it was never an issue. 

[lager loud]

1 minute ago, Alex_BCFC said:

A penalty shoot out is a bit different though. I mean a penalty in a normal game. There is very rarely any keepers coming miles off their line and it was never an issue. 

Maybe shootouts are different (although I’m not sure the application of the rules should be). I mentioned them because that’s when you see a lot of penalties. But I think it did happen in normal play, but refs didn’t look for it.

Second one looks more like a penalty. But missed!

 

[Davefevs]

Just a random thought re handling in the area....

- what if a penalty was only given from a shot / header towards goal or deliberate hand-ball

- free-kick if a cross or pass and unintentionally cut out

I know you’ll have deliberation over deliberate or not...but too many pens are being given.

[Alex_BCFC]

6 minutes ago, lager loud said:

Maybe shootouts are different (although I’m not sure the application of the rules should be). I mentioned them because that’s when you see a lot of penalties. But I think it did happen in normal play, but refs didn’t look for it.

Second one looks more like a penalty. But missed!

 

I think it happens all the time as you say but I guess point is that no one cared during normal play and now it’s meaning lots of retaken penalties that we never worried about before. It’s like when no one appeals for a handball yet you have a million different cameras trying to find things that no one worried about. Basically it’s changing the game for the worse in so many aspects. Hope it never comes to the Championship unless it’s just there to sort out a very clear and obvious error which it seems incapable of.

[Sheltons Army]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Just a random thought re handling in the area....

- what if a penalty was only given from a shot / header towards goal or deliberate hand-ball

- free-kick if a cross or pass and unintentionally cut out

I know you’ll have deliberation over deliberate or not...but too many pens are being given.

How about going back to deliberate (Or ‘reckless’) handball Dave !!

(Reckless being deemed as a deliberate attempt to make your body bigger by using your arms)

* On pitch referee to be final decision maker on pitch Incl  if reccomended to view by VAR

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Sheltons Army said:

How about going back to deliberate (Or ‘reckless’) handball Dave !!

(Reckless being deemed as a deliberate attempt to make your body bigger by using your arms)

Used to be ball-to-hand or hand-to-ball didn’t it.

Its unusual for me to watch PL these days unless it’s Liverpool.  It’s no longer exciting.  It’s ruining it.

[lager loud]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Just a random thought re handling in the area....

- what if a penalty was only given from a shot / header towards goal or deliberate hand-ball

- free-kick if a cross or pass and unintentionally cut out

I know you’ll have deliberation over deliberate or not...but too many pens are being given.

The flaw with this, Dave, is that it relies on officials to make decisions about what is intentional. They’re currently demonstrating they’re incapable of working out what is an “unnatural position” for the arm, so I’d have no confidence that the quality of decisions would improve. As @Red-Robbo said above, officials are showing no common sense and without that, no rules will work.

[Sheltons Army]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Used to be ball-to-hand or hand-to-ball didn’t it.

Its unusual for me to watch PL these days unless it’s Liverpool.  It’s no longer exciting.  It’s ruining it.

Think you have to cover and punish the John Terry style lunge with arms outstretched , which technically is a ‘ball to hand’ which is why Id have the reckless caveat - It would simply comes down to referee deciding did he handball the ball deliberately , if no , did he deliberately put his arms in a position to give himself a better chance to block -  the simple (maximum) (of opinion) two questions of ‘deliberate’ 

 

[Davefevs]

29 minutes ago, lager loud said:

The flaw with this, Dave, is that it relies on officials to make decisions about what is intentional. They’re currently demonstrating they’re incapable of working out what is an “unnatural position” for the arm, so I’d have no confidence that the quality of decisions would improve. As @Red-Robbo said above, officials are showing no common sense and without that, no rules will work.

Yep, common-sense is the answer in reality.