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Please don’t play with wingbacks we don’t have any


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With the latest signing it looks likely we could return to a back three after the break just as we had settled in to a 433 and looked a decent team. We look a much better team with the extra man in midfield. It’s the area in the squad that should create the most competition. I would say at least 6 could compete for the 3 positions in midfield ( I have excluded Brunt and HNM as not as good as the other 6). Bakinson has been a revaluation but needs some one along side him to bring the best out of him. Also the extra cover allows Pato to get further forward and have more freedom to move into positions between the lines. Then you have the wingbacks. They rarely get to the byline and neither look like beating a man on the outside. I like both of them but they are defenders who can get forward but are never wingbacks. Also competition is just not there with the exception of Vyner who I think could actually be better than Hunt. We have a decent front three and all In form in Wells, Martin & Seymenyo at the moment so why change now. We are a better team when we turn the ball over and get forward quickly. Three at the back will slow us down and stop the quick transition through midfield because there won’t be one. Hopefully Deano will persist with a winning team and 433 but I have a feeling were going back to 3, a slow build up, light in midfield and wingbacks who don’t really get forward. 

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Horses for courses I think. Will likely depend on form, fitness and opposition over the busy upcoming schedule.

In my view Hunt is better going forward than defending. Definitely not a 'solid' right back. Dasilva arguably better as LB than LWB I agree. 

Whether it's 433 or 532 the midfield 3 isn't in question. It's whether you play with an extra defender or forward that is. We need the flexibility to do both, which is why we've brought in Mariappa. 

I haven't been on much lately so forgive me if this is massive repeat business, but to consider playing 433 as our 'main' formation having sold Eliasson somewhat baffles me. But what do I know... in Dean I trust! 

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It's an interesting one- I think when fully fit we can and should be capable of slotting between either. I'm a big 4-3-3 fan btw and think it is the perfect or alternative for the 3-5-2, or basis of 3 at the bac

If we think about fully fit side then:

                  Bentley

        Moore Kalas Mawson

Hunt Nagy Williams Walsh DaSilva

             Martin Wells

That looks pretty excellent and balanced to in a lot of respects though I would be worried about 2 v 1- Nagy or Bakinson, plus Walsh and Williams strikes me as an excellent midfield 3 and with carriers in Moore and Mawson there are a lot of potential avenues there- guess Hunt and Moore could double on the right in some scenarios- if we could have fitted Paterson in there- maybe for some games Paterson as part of a CM 3 ahead of Nagy or Bakinson- or if Nagy in form even one of the others, then he can pull left helping DaSilva offensively and defensively as and when.

Of course, the other side is if it's Martin and Semenyo- and the latter has absolutely started to stake a claim- there is the 2 v 1 issue resolved somewhat helping Hunt out on the right, and if Paterson is in the CM 3 that again negates an opposition chance to pin back our wingbacks and can turn the tables on them. We can't discount Vyner too of course but from a ball carrying POV...? Bakinson for Nagy again we can easily make a case for, what depth we have.

4-3-3 though I really do like...

Say.

                Bentley

Hunt Kalas Mawson DaSilva

      Walsh Nagy Williams

    Semenyo Martin Paterson

It's not a perfectly symmetrical 4-3-3- Martin of course the pivot, Semenyo a wide forward, Paterson sort of a wide forward on the left- but avoids 2 v 1, gains numerical superiority in central areas, ability to pull in and out keeps opposition guessing- Wells pulling left I'm not so sure on, Weimann could too of course on the right like Semenyo, but he's injured! With Moore, Vyner and now Mariappa at CB also in the mix in this scenario, Bakinson easily able to slot in for Nagy especially, Massengo also an option then I think this shape could suit us very nicely. Wells as LF? Maybe though I'm not sure about him pulling wide in that way ie to counteract the 2 v 1 side of it.

One of my big bugbears with LJ was his aversion to 4-3-3, I mean genuine 4-3-3, think we have and have had for some time, the players. 

Now injuries have changed some of this absolutely. Maybe that 3-5-2 better suited with injuries as they are.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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5 hours ago, Better Red said:

With the latest signing it looks likely we could return to a back three after the break just as we had settled in to a 433 and looked a decent team. We look a much better team with the extra man in midfield. It’s the area in the squad that should create the most competition. I would say at least 6 could compete for the 3 positions in midfield ( I have excluded Brunt and HNM as not as good as the other 6). Bakinson has been a revaluation but needs some one along side him to bring the best out of him. Also the extra cover allows Pato to get further forward and have more freedom to move into positions between the lines. Then you have the wingbacks. They rarely get to the byline and neither look like beating a man on the outside. I like both of them but they are defenders who can get forward but are never wingbacks. Also competition is just not there with the exception of Vyner who I think could actually be better than Hunt. We have a decent front three and all In form in Wells, Martin & Seymenyo at the moment so why change now. We are a better team when we turn the ball over and get forward quickly. Three at the back will slow us down and stop the quick transition through midfield because there won’t be one. Hopefully Deano will persist with a winning team and 433 but I have a feeling were going back to 3, a slow build up, light in midfield and wingbacks who don’t really get forward. 

Wells in form ? 
I must have missed that ( as he might say). 
He’s playing well but he’s left his shooting boots somewhere. 
He will come good though.

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9 hours ago, Better Red said:

just as we had settled in to a 433

Not sure this is actually the case. Holden had stated his preference for 3-5-2, so I think this will be his chosen formation when we get back. That's not to say he can't , or won't switch, but there was a reason for the formation change, injuries. 
With luck we will have a few more players fit when we play Derby, and no new COVID cases, hopefully we will start to see Holden's first choice XI. I still think we ill have to wait a while, and I still think it will involve 3-5-2 as a starting point.

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11 hours ago, Better Red said:

With the latest signing it looks likely we could return to a back three after the break just as we had settled in to a 433 and looked a decent team. We look a much better team with the extra man in midfield. It’s the area in the squad that should create the most competition. I would say at least 6 could compete for the 3 positions in midfield ( I have excluded Brunt and HNM as not as good as the other 6). Bakinson has been a revaluation but needs some one along side him to bring the best out of him. Also the extra cover allows Pato to get further forward and have more freedom to move into positions between the lines. Then you have the wingbacks. They rarely get to the byline and neither look like beating a man on the outside. I like both of them but they are defenders who can get forward but are never wingbacks. Also competition is just not there with the exception of Vyner who I think could actually be better than Hunt. We have a decent front three and all In form in Wells, Martin & Seymenyo at the moment so why change now. We are a better team when we turn the ball over and get forward quickly. Three at the back will slow us down and stop the quick transition through midfield because there won’t be one. Hopefully Deano will persist with a winning team and 433 but I have a feeling were going back to 3, a slow build up, light in midfield and wingbacks who don’t really get forward. 

Playing a bit of devil’s advocate:

Did we look better playing 433 for the last 31 minutes v Huddersfield (from the point Diedhiou came on) and the first 73 minutes v Cardiff (when Brunt came on), or did we just get better results?  Does results cloud our view of performance / playing better?

in both 352 and 433 we are still playing 3 in midfield, so I’m not sure where your “We look a much better team with the extra man in midfield” comes from?

FWIW I thought v Huddersfield I thought we looked better once Pato and Semenyo came on (68m), so not at the point we went 433 which was when Diedhiou replaced Rowe (59m).  Semantics I know.

For Cardiff, did we play better, or defend better (accepting defending is a big part of the game)?

Tempo is key, I agree, and I believe some of the slower play can be attributed to Mawson’s injury, rather than formation.  His ability to play the ball quickly, especially when opening the play up for Vyner (bypassing Moore) was a key element of us getting into the opposition half before they had gained shape.

Re Wingbacks I’d say Hunt is enjoying his best form in a City shirt.  Might not get to the byline regularly, but both goals v Exeter came from him cutting the ball back from the byline.  He’s scored twice from RWB too.  Re Rowe, he was the guy getting on the end of a Martin nod-down to score v Wednesday.  I do think Dasilva suits LB more than LWB though.

Is a wingback a full-back who gets forward or a winger who needs to defend?  Wednesday last season went with two wingers (Murphy and Harris), this season they went one of each (Harris and Palmer).

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56 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Does results cloud our view of performance / playing better?

🏆

56 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Tempo

Do you track any stats that could feasibly measure "tempo"? Are there any companies out there looking at it? Thinking out loud could you divide total passes by possession and get some sort of figure to quantify "tempo"? Maybe touches per pass would help? It feels like something you would need some real decent timing data for, not sure if football is there yet? @IAmNick any thoughts on that?

On wingbacks themselves I think that listening to Holden he is more of the "winger who defends" camp than "defender who attacks". In that mould I think we're looking at O'dowda as the more naturally attacking LWB, and possibly the only natural WB we have. Dasilva and Hunt may certainly feel more defensive, but both are on the score sheet this season and both do contribute well to attacks.

So I think Holden would argue that we have the type of wing backs that he wants. Whether that's a defensive liability is to be seen, but currently were conceding at an acceptable average per game; so far it's not been a worry.

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1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

🏆

Do you track any stats that could feasibly measure "tempo"? Are there any companies out there looking at it? Thinking out loud could you divide total passes by possession and get some sort of figure to quantify "tempo"? Maybe touches per pass would help? It feels like something you would need some real decent timing data for, not sure if football is there yet? @IAmNick any thoughts on that?

On wingbacks themselves I think that listening to Holden he is more of the "winger who defends" camp than "defender who attacks". In that mould I think we're looking at O'dowda as the more naturally attacking LWB, and possibly the only natural WB we have. Dasilva and Hunt may certainly feel more defensive, but both are on the score sheet this season and both do contribute well to attacks.

So I think Holden would argue that we have the type of wing backs that he wants. Whether that's a defensive liability is to be seen, but currently were conceding at an acceptable average per game; so far it's not been a worry.

The data is there - he's an example of the first few passes from our Forest game so you can see what I've found online. I wrote a short program to download it an parse it into a more usable format:

{
        "minute": 0,
        "second": 0,
        "type": "Pass",
        "player": "Nahki Wells",
        "outcome": "Successful",
        "teamName": "Bristol City",
        "startX": 50,
        "startY": 50,
        "endX": 36.9,
        "endY": 46.4,
        "length": "14.0"
    },
    {
        "minute": 0,
        "second": 2,
        "type": "Pass",
        "player": "Tyreeq Bakinson",
        "outcome": "Successful",
        "teamName": "Bristol City",
        "startX": 37,
        "startY": 36.3,
        "endX": 28.7,
        "endY": 19.8,
        "length": "14.2"
    },
    {
        "minute": 0,
        "second": 4,
        "type": "Pass",
        "player": "Zak Vyner",
        "outcome": "Successful",
        "teamName": "Bristol City",
        "startX": 27.8,
        "startY": 23.1,
        "endX": 26.1,
        "endY": 73,
        "longBall": true,
        "length": "34.0"
    },
    {
        "minute": 0,
        "second": 7,
        "type": "Pass",
        "player": "Alfie Mawson",
        "outcome": "Successful",
        "teamName": "Bristol City",
        "startX": 26,
        "startY": 74.7,
        "endX": 29.5,
        "endY": 95.1,
        "length": "14.4"
    },
    {
        "minute": 0,
        "second": 11,
        "type": "Pass",
        "player": "Tommy Rowe",
        "outcome": "Unsuccessful",
        "teamName": "Bristol City",
        "startX": 31.8,
        "startY": 94.1,
        "endX": 74.4,
        "endY": 89.6,
        "longBall": true,
        "chipped": true,
        "length": "44.8"
    },

You can see there's time and x/y details in there which would probably be enough to do what you wanted! Happy to send some across to you for a couple of games if you're interested in playing with it.

It doesn't have "touches" as in, how many times did Rowe move the ball before he played that pass though. Maybe more complex datasets do, but this is just one I found online by looking at the code behind some websites. It's not really data that people are meant to have access to (for free) I think...

Edited by IAmNick
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11 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

The data is there - he's an example of the first few passes from our Forest game so you can see what I've found online. I wrote a short program to download it an parse it into a more usable format:


{
        "minute": 0,
        "second": 0,
        "type": "Pass",
        "player": "Nahki Wells",
        "outcome": "Successful",
        "teamName": "Bristol City",
        "startX": 50,
        "startY": 50,
        "endX": 36.9,
        "endY": 46.4,
        "length": "14.0"
    },
    {
        "minute": 0,
        "second": 2,
        "type": "Pass",
        "player": "Tyreeq Bakinson",
        "outcome": "Successful",
        "teamName": "Bristol City",
        "startX": 37,
        "startY": 36.3,
        "endX": 28.7,
        "endY": 19.8,
        "length": "14.2"
    },
    {
        "minute": 0,
        "second": 4,
        "type": "Pass",
        "player": "Zak Vyner",
        "outcome": "Successful",
        "teamName": "Bristol City",
        "startX": 27.8,
        "startY": 23.1,
        "endX": 26.1,
        "endY": 73,
        "longBall": true,
        "length": "34.0"
    },
    {
        "minute": 0,
        "second": 7,
        "type": "Pass",
        "player": "Alfie Mawson",
        "outcome": "Successful",
        "teamName": "Bristol City",
        "startX": 26,
        "startY": 74.7,
        "endX": 29.5,
        "endY": 95.1,
        "length": "14.4"
    },
    {
        "minute": 0,
        "second": 11,
        "type": "Pass",
        "player": "Tommy Rowe",
        "outcome": "Unsuccessful",
        "teamName": "Bristol City",
        "startX": 31.8,
        "startY": 94.1,
        "endX": 74.4,
        "endY": 89.6,
        "longBall": true,
        "chipped": true,
        "length": "44.8"
    },

You can see there's time and x/y details in there which would probably be enough to do what you wanted! Happy to send some across to you for a couple of games if you're interested in playing with it.

Will DM.

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Best 45 mintues this season for me was away at Brentford playing 352. And had some really good wins and performances playing that earlier in the season too.

I do think we need to get better in that system though. Bakinson and Williams in the same side I am looking forward to seeing whatever system we go with.

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1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

Best 45 mintues this season for me was away at Brentford playing 352. And had some really good wins and performances playing that earlier in the season too.

I do think we need to get better in that system though. Bakinson and Williams in the same side I am looking forward to seeing whatever system we go with.

Don't know why I put Brentford! Bournemouth I meant!

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5 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

🏆

Do you track any stats that could feasibly measure "tempo"? Are there any companies out there looking at it? Thinking out loud could you divide total passes by possession and get some sort of figure to quantify "tempo"? Maybe touches per pass would help? It feels like something you would need some real decent timing data for, not sure if football is there yet? @IAmNick any thoughts on that?

On wingbacks themselves I think that listening to Holden he is more of the "winger who defends" camp than "defender who attacks". In that mould I think we're looking at O'dowda as the more naturally attacking LWB, and possibly the only natural WB we have. Dasilva and Hunt may certainly feel more defensive, but both are on the score sheet this season and both do contribute well to attacks.

So I think Holden would argue that we have the type of wing backs that he wants. Whether that's a defensive liability is to be seen, but currently were conceding at an acceptable average per game; so far it's not been a worry.

There are some some but I don’t track them per se....but I will use them to explain things.

PPDA....if you go back to one of the Bournemouth threads....probably me arguing / debating with @JonDolman about how our intensity dropped second half, you’ll see some charts and commentary.  Here’s the chart.

760B1D06-0125-43F4-84E3-46925893EE72.jpeg.ef6adf9b11874de3125c986880521021.jpeg
 

There is also a stat that measures passes per minute of possession.

DM me if you want some more info.

2 hours ago, The Journalist said:

I wouldn't say we've looked good in the 4-3-3. As @Davefevs alludes to, it's funny how fans can be very clouded by results.

I think our most complete 90 minutes was in the win at Stoke City.

I agree re Stoke.

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The one game we used a 4-3-3 we were battered from minute 2 to minute 95. 9 times out of 10 we don't win that game. Barring a few defeats to likely top 3 sides (Bournemouth, Norwich) and a bad day against a solid Boro, 3-5-2 has served us very well. I think Dasilva is finding some form at a good time too and can do LWB to a good standard.

Edited by BCFCGav
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49 minutes ago, BCFCGav said:

The one game we used a 4-3-3 we were battered from minute 2 to minute 95. 9 times out of 10 we don't win that game. Barring a few defeats to likely top 3 sides (Bournemouth, Norwich) and a bad day against a solid Boro, 3-5-2 has served us very well. I think Dasilva is finding some form at a good time too and can do LWB to a good standard.

We controlled the game against Cardiff for the first 20 minutes not 2 

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I'm leaning towards 4-3-3, always have done in general but 3-5-2 has served us quite well. Provided it's a) Hunt and DaSilva I don't get the negativity about the wingback options- did DaSilva not get a goal and assist at Huddersfield, much more of that please! My only real reservation as I say often is the risk of 2 v 1 overloads or bypassing, cutting us out of the game somewhat.

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I personally think we have the playing staff that would suit 3151.

Lazio used this formation with lots of success last season.

You create a diamond with the back 3 and the DM. 

Draw the press of the attackers, and then use the space in behind with the overload of 5 in midfield.

That's a very very simple analysis.

A far greater detail of its positives can be found here...Mr Pops and Fevs might like it.

https://spielverlagerung.com/2020/11/11/lazios-3-1-5-1-build-up-approach/

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

I personally think we have the playing staff that would suit 3151.

Lazio used this formation with lots of success last season.

You create a diamond with the back 3 and the DM. 

Draw the press of the attackers, and then use the space in behind with the overload of 5 in midfield.

That's a very very simple analysis.

A far greater detail of its positives can be found here...Mr Pops and Fevs might like it.

https://spielverlagerung.com/2020/11/11/lazios-3-1-5-1-build-up-approach/

Always interesting these sorts of things....ta.  I like how they always show the weakness of a team who want more than one spare man....a bit like our 3CBs v Pukki.

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