grifty Posted December 12, 2021 Report Share Posted December 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, Maltshoveller said: As you just said The best person in those events win but none are relying on having the best equipment to help them win I get you hate Hamilton and it’s cool, but that’s not what this discussion about whether you think he doesn’t deserve to win or Max did, it’s the way the race ended that’s the controversy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East Londoner Posted December 12, 2021 Report Share Posted December 12, 2021 It also needs answering why Sainz wasn’t allowed to challenge Max in the safety car restart. Sporting integrity seems to have left the building today 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Swan and Cemetery Posted December 12, 2021 Report Share Posted December 12, 2021 The uproar about this shows how unusual it is, there were lots of other incidents, eg Verstappen overtake and Hamilton retaining 1st (driven off by MV or gaining an advantage?), the virtual safety car after some terrible parking by Giovinazzi allowing MV a cheap pitstop, Perez being a far better wingman than Bottas. All of which fans accept as tough racing or good/bad luck, whereas how it ended was WWE writ large. One thing that’s increasingly clear is the disadvantages of being first when lots of safety cars. Whoever’s in 2nd gets to decide what to do, wonder if they’ll look at stopping tyre changes under a yellow flag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted December 12, 2021 Report Share Posted December 12, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyTonyTony Posted December 12, 2021 Report Share Posted December 12, 2021 19 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said: not even him, more been trolls on twitter, but anyone who trolls is a worthless *** regardless of where they do it add in that the moderators here do **** all about trolling, but i got a week ban for calling robbored one. this place is falling to shit and scum like Super are why You should probably calm down a bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBCFC Posted December 12, 2021 Report Share Posted December 12, 2021 1 minute ago, TonyTonyTony said: You should probably calm down a bit or the pathetic pricks should stop trolling and trying to make other people as miserable as they are Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loco Rojo Posted December 12, 2021 Report Share Posted December 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Super said: I think it's the greatest lap of driving ever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted December 12, 2021 Report Share Posted December 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Super said: Second appeal Horner 'Strenuously object, is that how it works?' 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoyalRed Posted December 12, 2021 Report Share Posted December 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Super said: I think it's the greatest lap of driving ever. I thought Lewis Hamilton’s driving was far superior , he was doing a second a lap on max the whole time but still lost the race ?! It’s like being 2-0 up in football and then told to start at 0-0 at 90 mins , don’t really understand it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Swan and Cemetery Posted December 12, 2021 Report Share Posted December 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, LoyalRed said: I thought Lewis Hamilton’s driving was far superior , he was doing a second a lap on max the whole time but still lost the race ?! It’s like being 2-0 up in football and then told to start at 0-0 at 90 mins , don’t really understand it Yep, if F1 - and it appears they have - can convince themselves that the end of that race is what should be expected, with a crash 5 or so laps from the end, then think they’ll have a serious credibility issue. Hamilton was on the same tyres (a few laps older due to Verstappen getting a cheap pitstop during the virtual safety car) as MV, with an 11/12 second lead before the safety car. At the end of the safety car, due to no great/terrible driving or dubious tactics by either, MV was on new soft tyres and right behind LH, but with no sign of Sainz being allowed to be in MV’s rear view mirrors, due to Masi picking and choosing who he let through. A massive net loss for LH that had nothing to do with the performance of him or MV and well beyond luck/racing incident/“let them race”. Think Mercedes need to push the appeal to the limit to try and sort things out for next season if nothing else, as based on today, no one can have a clue what rules will be applied when in future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Maesknoll Red Posted December 12, 2021 Admin Report Share Posted December 12, 2021 27 minutes ago, The Swan and Cemetery said: Yep, if F1 - and it appears they have - can convince themselves that the end of that race is what should be expected, with a crash 5 or so laps from the end, then think they’ll have a serious credibility issue. Hamilton was on the same tyres (a few laps older due to Verstappen getting a cheap pitstop during the virtual safety car) as MV, with an 11/12 second lead before the safety car. At the end of the safety car, due to no great/terrible driving or dubious tactics by either, MV was on new soft tyres and right behind LH, but with no sign of Sainz being allowed to be in MV’s rear view mirrors, due to Masi picking and choosing who he let through. A massive net loss for LH that had nothing to do with the performance of him or MV and well beyond luck/racing incident/“let them race”. Think Mercedes need to push the appeal to the limit to try and sort things out for next season if nothing else, as based on today, no one can have a clue what rules will be applied when in future. Safety cars are part and parcel, it appears this one was cocked up, but it realistically affected the placings lower down the order. Silverstone 2 years ago….. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZiderEyed Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, JamesBCFC said: **** off you pathetic *** how ******* shit is your life that you troll on a forum? If Max had got ahead during the race, then I'd have no issue. It's the fact Masi broke FIA regs to manufacture the end of the race which gifted the win. It isnt even a Hamilton thing, I'd be angry with this regardless of who the drivers are. Like Robbo I support McLaren and Norris. You still havent answered why you keep lying about Hamilton though. (you're completely right tbf) Edited December 13, 2021 by ZiderEyed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZiderEyed Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 (edited) . Edited December 13, 2021 by ZiderEyed dopey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebristolred Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 Listening to the radio is so dodgy, Horner telling the stewards ‘we only need one more racing lap’, and then the stewards just engineer that situation for him, that has never happened before and looks about as contrived a situation as you can possibly imagine. This is going to the FIA and then CAS and to be quite honest I think Mercedes have a case. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, JamesBCFC said: **** off you pathetic *** how ******* shit is your life that you troll on a forum? If Max had got ahead during the race, then I'd have no issue. It's the fact Masi broke FIA regs to manufacture the end of the race which gifted the win. It isnt even a Hamilton thing, I'd be angry with this regardless of who the drivers are. Like Robbo I support McLaren and Norris. You still havent answered why you keep lying about Hamilton though. You do seem angry. Did you lose money?! Edited December 13, 2021 by Super Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Maesknoll Red Posted December 13, 2021 Admin Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 9 hours ago, TomF said: We could also talk about the farce of Spa this year and safety cars I think the FIA and the teams need to get to gather over the winter and thrash out a set of rules so that a situation like this never happens again. Maybe if there is a accident that requires car recovery within the last - say 8 laps- it should be an immediate red flag and restart. Either that or the gap between the cars before the safety car came out has to be maintained, shouldn’t be impossible given the technology available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyTonyTony Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 32 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said: I think the FIA and the teams need to get to gather over the winter and thrash out a set of rules so that a situation like this never happens again. Maybe if there is a accident that requires car recovery within the last - say 8 laps- it should be an immediate red flag and restart. Either that or the gap between the cars before the safety car came out has to be maintained, shouldn’t be impossible given the technology available. Protocols around the safety car need a big rethink. It hands a massive and unfair advantage to chasing cars, who in many cases would not be anywhere near the lead car. As with yesterday, Max was a fair distance behind, and had Latifi not crashed Hamilton would have cruised it. The crash, safety car, tyre change and then all that nonsense from Masi at the end handed it to Verstappen. Not his driving skill. He just got lucky and if you are Mercedes who spend many millions on the sport, you would be within your rights to say sod this. That isn't sport. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebristolred Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 (edited) To be fair I don't mind the idea of SC's, it does create a bit more randomness which generates excitement, even if it isn't 100% fair. The problem is that in this case the rules have allowed the race director to create the exact situation that he wants. That shouldn't be possible and the rules need tightening up for sure. I think the verdict from Masi asks the question that Merc will be asking in court. He says in allowing the lapped cars to overtake the SC, he interpreted that as 'removing the cars that would intervene with the leaders of the race'. So why did he interpret 'leaders of the race' as simply the cars between Lewis and Max? Surely Sainz, in third and a podium spot, should also count here? Why were the cars removed for Max but not Sainz? It literally created the perfect scenario where Max had no one blocking him in front and cars blocking the third place driver behind. There is no precedent for a) releasing just the right number of cars for a particular driver and b) bringing the SC in immediately as a consequence. Not doing either of those would certainly have given Lewis the Championship, it's an absolute farce. Again, completely manufactured and artificial, and it happened either through incompetence or corruption. If F1 fail to acknowledge it as the former then it's going to look like it was the latter. Edited December 13, 2021 by nebristolred 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyTonyTony Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, nebristolred said: Again, completely manufactured and artificial, and it happened either through incompetence or corruption. If F1 fail to acknowledge it as the former then it's going to look like it was the latter. You are 100% correct. I hope the FIA have deep pockets, because Mercedes will sue. I know they won the constructors, but how many people including LH will have been on a bonus linked to the drivers championship? It really is one of the biggest steals in sport ive ever seen tbh Edited December 13, 2021 by TonyTonyTony LH not LJ ! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East Londoner Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 3 hours ago, Super said: You do seem angry. Did you lose money?! You raise an interesting point, i assume millions have been bet on the outcome of this race and of the championship. With the result being manipulated and manufactured in the way it has i wonder if there’s going to be any comeback from the betting companies or whether they’ll try and void it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grifty Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 11 minutes ago, East Londoner said: You raise an interesting point, i assume millions have been bet on the outcome of this race and of the championship. With the result being manipulated and manufactured in the way it has i wonder if there’s going to be any comeback from the betting companies or whether they’ll try and void it Paddy Power did one of their "Justice payouts" for people who did single bets on Max and Lewis to win the race and also to become World Champion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheddarReds Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 14 hours ago, Maltshoveller said: As you just said The best person in those events win but none are relying on having the best equipment to help them win Mercedes have the best and fastest car but I guess their argument is they have the best car but there's still regulations which limit what they can/ can't do to try and make it competitive. In the same way that Man City have the best training facilities, best stadium, most money to splash on players etc but their argument will be they do it within the FFP regulations. In every sport teams or individuals will have an advantage that's relatable to Hamilton & Mercedes having the fastest car. That's why we love random events. It was yesterday's random event that made the last lap so exciting to watch, not that I necessarily agree with the actions taken by Masi/ FIA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 (edited) What will be interesting over the coming days is the fact that publicly - we've only heard from Red Bull about all this, as they were the only ones willing to talk to the press after. Mercedes were silent. We haven't heard from the other teams. They and their sponsors add up to a lot more than Red Bull and Honda. We were talking billions in sponsorship and many of those sponsors will be concerned, to put it politely. I suspect the FIA will today be under immense pressure from everyone except Red Bull/Honda about the absolute farce of yesterday. Money talks and integrity, at least on the face of it, is important too. We'll see, but big sponsors or manufacturers pulling out, which is possible, is not a good look for the F1 - so they're facing a political, financial and legal fight right now. Masi and the stewards may make choices on the day, but more powerful people call the shots behind the scenes so I don't think this is going away anytime soon. Edited December 13, 2021 by Alessandro 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyTonyTony Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 Interesting article here on taking it to the court Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East Londoner Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said: Interesting article here on taking it to the court Unfortunately whoever ‘wins’ the title it’s now tainted as it was either won using rules made up on the spot or in the courtroom. I think Lewis has already realised that Suddenly the last race finishing under the safety car doesn’t seem so bad after all. As this is the last thing the sport needed and was entirely avoidable Red Bull would’ve been screaming from the rooftops had roles been reversed and Horner as usual has shown a healthy amount of hypocrisy The worry now is the damage it’s done to the sport as a whole, as we now have two camps the core support who want sporting integrity and the newer support who want entertainment 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Maesknoll Red Posted December 13, 2021 Admin Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 Have UEFA been to the FIA school of incompetent sport’s administration……. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorenzos Only Goal Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 I'm not sure you can take the title back off Max, he's not at fault its basically the FIA that needs their teeth pulled, they ruined what would have been a great race by fixing it for Redbull. Massi in my opinion needs to be removed for next season and Mercedes compensated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyTonyTony Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 6 minutes ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said: I'm not sure you can take the title back off Max, he's not at fault I agree, but what about Hamilton? He did nothing wrong either, and has got completely shat on. Maybe the fair thing is they share the title, but that would be weird 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erithacus Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 I used to follow F1 more in my younger days, less so of late, but I am struggling to understand the sport now. It seems the mere glory of racing has become a side-show to the off-the-track games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted December 13, 2021 Report Share Posted December 13, 2021 12 minutes ago, TomF said: Like you say its not Max/Red Bulls fault as such although would Masi have let them race if Horner wasn't in his ear constantly? Lewis may well have retired if he won yesterday Have to admit he has taken it very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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