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Karma is a bitch, how many accidents has verstappen caused inthe past because of his aggressive unpredictable driving. He has improved it has to be said but what goes around comes around.

 

Glad he is okay, it would have been better watching a full race, but judging how Hamilton's car reacted to turbulent air I'm not sure he would have taken him.

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5 minutes ago, Maltshoveller said:

Loads of LH fans on here i see!!!

His fault end of

 

Aye looks like it judging by the time penalty and ex drivers commentary.

 

Didn't really matter though did it. He finished first.

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21 minutes ago, Maltshoveller said:

Loads of LH fans on here i see!!!

His fault end of

 

It might of been but my god Horner made out it was attempted murder or something.  Max is the worst on the track for incidents over recent years, he’s got some brass neck to cry about it.

As it was it brought the very best of Hamilton out.. 

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1 minute ago, TomF said:

It might of been but my god Horner made out it was attempted murder or something.  Max is the worst on the track for incidents over recent years, he’s got some brass neck to cry about it.

As it was it brought the very best of Hamilton out.. 

Well it took the fastest car out of the race Leaving LH with the fastest car Sums up F1 fastests/best car wins

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It's literally a racing incident. 

If blame has to be given it's more Hamilton than Verstappen, but let's be real for a second.

There's been at least 3 occasions this season where Hamilton has had position and backed out to avoid a crash with Verstappen, that's just this season.

In this race Verstappen had already moved to bump wheels where Hamilton was alongside going down the straight about 2 corners before the crash.

 

Heading into the corner, MV squeezes LH tight on the wall, then moves a bit to give room.

LH is missing the apex because of where he was forced to go, but is at full steering lock (can be seen from the footage).

MV sees LH on his right when they were side by side heading into braking (again, can be seen from footage).

So, in the corner itself, MV knows LH is on the inside and off the racing line, therefore less grip, but takes the same line regardless when he had room to take a wider line while still making the corner.

LH could have backed out more and conceded the position.

Both drivers had the option to make a decision that avoids the incident. 

 

Now, all through the season LH has done exactly that, and it has resulted in losing the place to a driver taking aggressiveness to a whole new level each time.

MV has, for years, taken the piss when it comes to being an aggressive driver, and there was always going to be a point where someone decided to play him at his own game. Today was that day and MV came off worse when it happened.

This should be a wake up call that he doesn't own the track and that while racing aggressively is fine, there also needs to be occassions where he backs off, because if he refuses to do so, other drivers will do the same to him, and one day that could result in a serious injury for someone.

 

With regards to the penalty, I can understand why LH got one, but really think its more to do with the joke one Norris got last time out, and the stewards trying to show a degree of consistency. A longer time penalty because the result of the incident was more serious than Perez just going off track for a few seconds.

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1 hour ago, JamesBCFC said:

But Perez is in an identical car to Verstappen. 

It’s been designed with Max in mind which is why both Gasly and Albon struggled so much

Anyway Karun Chandhok described the crash best, both drivers could’ve done more to avoid contact but neither did so was a racing incident but as one side obviously came off a lot worse maybe the penalty was fair.

Meanwhile Christian Horner is the Arsene Wenger of F1, doesn’t see it when his driver does anything but screams for a penalty when its anyone else 

Edited by walnutroof
Autocorrect
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16 minutes ago, walnutroof said:

It’s been designed with Max in mind which is why both Gasly and Albon struggled so much

Anyway Karun Chandhok described the crash best, both drivers could’ve done more to avoid contact but neither did so was a racing incident but as one side obviously came off a lot worse maybe the penalty was fair.

Meanwhile Christian Horner is the Arsene Wenger of F1, doesn’t see it when his driver does anything but screams for a penalty when its anyone else 

That is true, but it's still the fastest car on the track.

Second para is pretty much what's in my longer post, though a lot more succinctly put.

Helmut Marko at RB even worse than Horner, calling for a suspension for a race.

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2 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

That is true, but it's still the fastest car on the track.

Second para is pretty much what's in my longer post, though a lot more succinctly put.

Helmut Marko at RB even worse than Horner, calling for a suspension for a race.

I do think if LH gets past MV without incident he might have held on to it. It would have taken a pit stop undercut probably to win.  

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38 minutes ago, TomF said:

I do think if LH gets past MV without incident he might have held on to it. It would have taken a pit stop undercut probably to win.  

I'm not sure he does, not without strategy playing a part and how tires get managed, and Mercedes have messed up on strategy several times already this season.

 

Red Bull have the faster car and Lewis had no answer in the sprint race.

Of course its easier to defend once you're ahead than it is to get past but I think Max would have got through. 

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Very simple incident to explain.

Both drivers could have done more to avoid a collision but neither did.

Max was on the outside and cut across Lewis aggressively and made contact and came off worse.

The penalty for Lewis was probably more about making it look like the stewards are trying to be consistent.

Max plays with fire with his driving style, he's now got burnt.

Hopefully he learns from it as he won't get anywhere near Lewis' World Championship haul if he doesn't know when to back out.

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Racing incident all day. 

I'm sorry but it wasn't that many years ago when people (myself included) were moaning that the races were too boring and predictable. Why should LH HAVE to drop off because MV was close and cutting across him/trying to block him off.

As a driver (professional or day to day) you should know the dimensions/width of the car you're driving. MV tried playing chicken at 100mph+. He either misjudged the dimensions of his car, or was just arrogant enough to assume LH would just let him across without a fight. 

It's racing, at extremely fast speeds. Let them race. Incidents like this are few and far between thankfully, however at the speeds those cars are equipped to do, accidents/incidents will happen.

Good race from LH to pull it back and take the win, along with Lando Norris taking 4th place. Unlucky Leclerc, leading for most of the race but just not able to keep the pace to outlast the Mercedes.

As a side note, it would be interesting to see what Lando could do in a Mercedes/Ferrari/Red Bull....

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I'd say racing incident too.

I'm surprised by Horner though, as I generally find him quite level headed and calm as he is a racer deep down, gut I suppose he's just seen his driver fly into a barrier sideways at 180mph.

Marko sounds like a moron though.

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44 minutes ago, nebristolred said:

Horner has turned into a right little whinger in recent years to be honest. Very decent team principal of course but his bias towards his main driver, be it Vettel or Max, seems to sway his attitude on too many things.

I'd have more sympathy to Horner if it wasn't for the fact that Max has always raced close to the line. Almost Senna'esk where he puts the driver in a position where if they hold their line it'll cause a crash.  When you have people like Alonso saying it was a racing incident - one of the most level headed drivers out there  - I think its about right.

Probably Horner knows deep down that perhaps Max isn't going to get away with that tactic so much and momentum plays its part in F1

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6 minutes ago, TomF said:

I'd have more sympathy to Horner if it wasn't for the fact that Max has always raced close to the line. Almost Senna'esk where he puts the driver in a position where if they hold their line it'll cause a crash.  When you have people like Alonso saying it was a racing incident - one of the most level headed drivers out there  - I think its about right.

Probably Horner knows deep down that perhaps Max isn't going to get away with that tactic so much and momentum plays its part in F1

Yep completely agree. Deep down it's all gamesmanship, it just doesn't make them look like a particularly noble team. They give me throwbacks to the Ferrari team of the early 00's in that respect.

I never have favourites when it comes to F1 but Red Bull just continuously make themselves look like a bit of a nasty team (not sure if nasty's the right word but we'll go with it). They'll determinedly side with their main driver at the expense of their number 2 driver regardless of the cost, even when number 1 is clearly to blame, and they certainly seem more petty when it comes to complaints and disputes. I understand F1 is a sport of fine margins but they certainly stand out amongst all of the teams in that respect and Max fits in with their style perfectly.

I don't blame Danny Ric one bit for getting out. And as much as Max is an incredibly talented driver, I would love nothing more than for Lewis to completely outclass him at Zandvoort.

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Personally, I think if you receive a penalty it should mean something, whether you agree with the stewards or not, they deemed Hamilton predominantly culpable, he gains a huge advantage from this, I would make the penalty for causing another car to crash or retire from the race, a positional drop, rather than a time penalty.  

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12 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

Personally, I think if you receive a penalty it should mean something, whether you agree with the stewards or not, they deemed Hamilton predominantly culpable, he gains a huge advantage from this, I would make the penalty for causing another car to crash or retire from the race, a positional drop, rather than a time penalty.  

So if when Perez and Leclerc battled in Austria Leclerc got suspension damage from being pushed wide then Perez should be forced to retire?

 

How do you account for smaller damage?

Verstappen pushed Hamilton over the kerbs in the chicane at Imola and Hamilton had floor damage but not enough to retire him. But as it was lap 1 it hurts every single lap of the race, so does Verstappen get a grid drop there? After all he caused it.

 

 

Or perhaps an easier solution would be that no driver goes into ever race with the attitude of "I will never back out, no matter what" like Verstappen currently does.

On track he is a bully and the only reason they weren't both retired from Barcelona where he dived in recklessly is that Hamilton backed out despite having track position. 

 

On Sunday the bully got beaten up, and while I hope there's no injuries for him I have no sympathy whatsoever when his own driving style has meant a big crash with someone was inevitable. 

Just ask Vettel or Raikkonen, who he continually crashed into a few years ago. Or Perez who he took out last season. Or Ocon who was faster and unlapping himself as he had every right to do when Verstappen crashed into him.

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47 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

So if when Perez and Leclerc battled in Austria Leclerc got suspension damage from being pushed wide then Perez should be forced to retire?

I didn’t say that, I said a place penalty, like a grid penalty - so under the current system Drivers get 5/10 or longer stop and go penalties, make that one finishing position, two finishing positions etc for the severity.

 

49 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Verstappen pushed Hamilton over the kerbs in the chicane at Imola and Hamilton had floor damage but not enough to retire him. But as it was lap 1 it hurts every single lap of the race, so does Verstappen get a grid drop there? After all he caused it.

Did Verstappen get a time penalty for that - not that I recall, so why would he he get a finishing place drop?

 

51 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Or perhaps an easier solution would be that no driver goes into ever race with the attitude of "I will never back out, no matter what" like Verstappen currently does.

On track he is a bully and the only reason they weren't both retired from Barcelona where he dived in recklessly is that Hamilton backed out despite having track position. 

Just think back to Barcelona when Verstappen won his first race, Hamilton and Rosberg could have avoided that crash, it happens.

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1 hour ago, Maesknoll Red said:

Did Verstappen get a time penalty for that - not that I recall, so why would he he get a finishing place drop?

 

Because he caused damage to another drivers car who then had it for the rest of the race.

He forced someone off track and was very lucky to not get a penalty, but I'm highlighting the double standards. 

Verstappen races to the limit and makes other drivers yield even when it should be him conceding the position or backing off, but you are happy to ignore it.

Just think back to Barcelona when Verstappen won his first race, Hamilton and Rosberg could have avoided that crash, it happens.

And both could have avoided the crash on Sunday, it happens. 

So we're back at you having double standards.

 

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9 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

So if when Perez and Leclerc battled in Austria Leclerc got suspension damage from being pushed wide then Perez should be forced to retire?

 

How do you account for smaller damage?

Verstappen pushed Hamilton over the kerbs in the chicane at Imola and Hamilton had floor damage but not enough to retire him. But as it was lap 1 it hurts every single lap of the race, so does Verstappen get a grid drop there? After all he caused it.

 

 

Or perhaps an easier solution would be that no driver goes into ever race with the attitude of "I will never back out, no matter what" like Verstappen currently does.

On track he is a bully and the only reason they weren't both retired from Barcelona where he dived in recklessly is that Hamilton backed out despite having track position. 

 

On Sunday the bully got beaten up, and while I hope there's no injuries for him I have no sympathy whatsoever when his own driving style has meant a big crash with someone was inevitable. 

Just ask Vettel or Raikkonen, who he continually crashed into a few years ago. Or Perez who he took out last season. Or Ocon who was faster and unlapping himself as he had every right to do when Verstappen crashed into him.

We need fewer penalties rather than more, we didn’t see these in the Senna Prost era for example apart from the politically motivated one at Suzuka in 1989 which gifted Prost the title and that incident played a part in what happened at the same circuit 12 months later,  neither did we see them in the Schumacher Hill era which had controversial collisions such as Adelaide 1994 and silverstone 1995

Remember Senna’s famous quote, if you no longer go for a gap you’re no longer a racing driver 

Penalties should be serious transgressions rather than for hard racing which we’ve seen in the last two races. And for the rest let the drivers sort it out for themselves rather than doing the f1 equivalent of surrounding the referee. It’s in danger of making the racing as fake as drs is 

The collision Sunday has been coming for a while, Lewis having previously looked at the bigger picture and backed out couldn’t keep doing that and maybe Max will also learn from what happened although for that to happen Red Bulls management need to take off their rose tinted glasses where their driver is concerned which is unlikely given they were exactly the same when Sebastian was their driver who incidentally has grown as a person since leaving Red Bull even if his performances haven’t always matched 

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