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IGNORED

Walsh and Williams still not fit !


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29 minutes ago, BigTone said:

Just a feeling I have Noggers.

 

22 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Me too Tone

Me too. 
Out of contract, not signed the one on the table and never really had a look in here so I don’t think he’s ‘settled’ here, as it were. 
Wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if he left in Jan. 

I’d like to be wrong on that, as I think he can become a very good player, but I just don’t think he’s got City in his blood, so to speak. 

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On 22/11/2020 at 01:28, Harry said:

 

Me too. 
Out of contract, not signed the one on the table and never really had a look in here so I don’t think he’s ‘settled’ here, as it were. 
Wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if he left in Jan. 

I’d like to be wrong on that, as I think he can become a very good player, but I just don’t think he’s got City in his blood, so to speak. 

Looking very likely to me also, wouldn't be at all surprised to see him go back to Coventry when his contract expires. I would be glad to see a different scenario but I won't hold my breath. 

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I do wonder whether Holden, having been at the club throughout a period where we have been unable to win games by dominating possession, is considering slowly dismantling his whole midfield department and literally starting again.

We are all making a huge assumption that Walsh is going to come straight in and do the business. There is a chance unfortunately, however small you think that might be, that he’ll prove he’s not up to Championship football. At least with Williams we have 100 or so games of evidence that he can do it.

As for Morrell, also deemed by many to have been the answer, not in the Luton 20 on Saturday presumably because of injury or fatigue?

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9 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

As for Morrell, also deemed by many to have been the answer, not in the Luton 20 on Saturday presumably because of injury or fatigue?

 Could be , he was away on international duty.

I understand your point of view though.

Williams is proven at this level although we may just as well have signed Ronaldo for the good it’s done us up until now .

 

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19 minutes ago, bpexile said:

Looking very likely to me also, wouldn't be at all surprised to see him go back to Coventry when his contract expires. I would be glad to see a different scenario but I won't hold my breath. 

Surely the reason that he hasn’t featured is because he’s injured?      :dunno:

So why all this speculation about his future?

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11 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I do wonder whether Holden, having been at the club throughout a period where we have been unable to win games by dominating possession, is considering slowly dismantling his whole midfield department and literally starting again.

We are all making a huge assumption that Walsh is going to come straight in and do the business. There is a chance unfortunately, however small you think that might be, that he’ll prove he’s not up to Championship football. At least with Williams we have 100 or so games of evidence that he can do it.

As for Morrell, also deemed by many to have been the answer, not in the Luton 20 on Saturday presumably because of injury or fatigue?

You may have hit the nail on the head in your first paragraph. Williams has already proved his credentials at Wigan. Walsh is still a maybe and perhaps his heart is not here.

If we didn't have so many injuries in central defence, I would seriously consider using Taylor Moore as the defensive central midfield with Bakinson and Nagy. Bakinson appears to have good defensive qualities to cover Moore if he does go forward. Nagy likewise. A midfield three with each of them interchangeable. Solid and creative and with Williams to join when he is fit.

 

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Yes,  there is a strong possibility that he won't sign.  We'll still get compensated if he is intent on signing elsewhere.

That fee will be decided by a tribunal as he will still be under 24 when his contract expires.   There is a strong case for getting a higher fee then we paid given hie was the top rated midfielder in league 1 last year.  I think he was signed for about £1m .   Then there is the usual %  profit from future sales and that seems to be set about 20% judging by other tribunal decisions.  

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On 20/11/2020 at 22:31, GrahamC said:

Pretty simple, his availability record for us is really crap.

Now been out for months & the season before last he started 1 game (Ipswich) & was then out for virtually the rest of the season.

How can you think about building your midfield with him in it? 

People gave Nagy stick, he looks a 46 game a season player in comparison.

 

On 20/11/2020 at 22:46, Coxy27 said:

You're writing him off far, far too early.

To be fair to our @GrahamC, this is not his usual style (in assessing the worth and merit of BCFC players). For example, he still remains unsure and undecided on Jacki Dziekanowski: poetic artist and maverick genius, or lazy, piss-taking waste of bloody (Bobby T's transfer fund) space?

We keep pressing him for an answer but will he commit?

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11 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

 

To be fair to our @GrahamC, this is not his usual style (in assessing the worth and merit of BCFC players). For example, he still remains unsure and undecided on Jacki Dziekanowski: poetic artist and maverick genius, or lazy, piss-taking waste of bloody (Bobby T's transfer fund) space?

We keep pressing him for an answer but will he commit?

To be fair Nick it isn’t so easy, as Jimmy Lumsden effectively swapped Super Bob, who then went on to become West Brom’s 8th highest goal scorer of all time, for someone whose 8 league goals for us included a tap in from a Junior Bent cross in a 1-1 draw at home to Southend.

Still can’t decide..

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On 21/11/2020 at 14:58, Harry said:

 

Me too. 
Out of contract, not signed the one on the table and never really had a look in here so I don’t think he’s ‘settled’ here, as it were. 
Wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if he left in Jan. 

I’d like to be wrong on that, as I think he can become a very good player, but I just don’t think he’s got City in his blood, so to speak. 

I'm not sure how many of our players do have 'City in their blood' - very few I'd have thought, but, injuries not withstanding, the more they play the more they are likely to appear to settled and content to be at BCFC.

If Walsh has not been given some assurances that he can continue to progress his career at AG by getting runs of games to impress - a reasonable request imo. at this stage in his career and after such a successful loan - then you'd imagine the player's best interests would be served by a change of club and that is what his agent would be advising.

My feeling is that Walsh shows all the traits to be an outstanding midfielder for us so such a conclusion would not be in City's best interests, and be one we come to regret.

Holden seemed to agree pre season when telling fans what an important player Walsh would be under him, so unless he's changed his mind and informed Walsh accordingly, that remains the case when he is fit. 

I'm starting to share the gut feeling that this saga is pointing towards a parting of the ways for whatever reason, which is really disappointing.

I still hope Walsh's new contract, which is apparently still available to him, will be announced as signed asap.

 

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With Walsh, just a few random observations to throw in:

- I know squad numbers mean 1-11 aren’t the be all and end all they once were. However, in the summer Walsh was “upgraded” from 12 > 8. That, together with Holdens words, suggested he was certainly in with a decent shot there.

- The injury is frustrating but there is also no reason to suggest he’s not injured. It’s clearly both “niggly” and not going away. He’s not played since March and in the current climate, an OOC midfielder unproven at this level who’s had a 8 month layoff (we don’t know at what stage in initial lockdown he got injured) is a huge risk for a club.

Similarly, if this injury isn’t going away, then how do we know it’s not the club who are holding off on the contract offer at this stage - why give LW a contract if you don’t know when - or if - he’s going to be available again, particularly in view of his unproven nature at this level.

From what I’ve seen of Walsh I like him, and clearly Holden does. I do get Nicky Maynard vibes about this injury though in view of it occurring at an unspecified time and being of a real unspecified nature.

Williams, in view of time since last game and being proven at this level is a different kettle of fish.

I’ve also had the thought though whether there is some reason non injury related going on here for both. No idea what that would be.

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9 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

With Walsh, just a few random observations to throw in:

- I know squad numbers mean 1-11 aren’t the be all and end all they once were. However, in the summer Walsh was “upgraded” from 12 > 8. That, together with Holdens words, suggested he was certainly in with a decent shot there.

- The injury is frustrating but there is also no reason to suggest he’s not injured. It’s clearly both “niggly” and not going away. He’s not played since March and in the current climate, an OOC midfielder unproven at this level who’s had a 8 month layoff (we don’t know at what stage in initial lockdown he got injured) is a huge risk for a club.

Similarly, if this injury isn’t going away, then how do we know it’s not the club who are holding off on the contract offer at this stage - why give LW a contract if you don’t know when - or if - he’s going to be available again, particularly in view of his unproven nature at this level.

From what I’ve seen of Walsh I like him, and clearly Holden does. I do get Nicky Maynard vibes about this injury though in view of it occurring at an unspecified time and being of a real unspecified nature.

Williams, in view of time since last game and being proven at this level is a different kettle of fish.

I’ve also had the thought though whether there is some reason non injury related going on here for both. No idea what that would be.

And a few observations from me.

We know Williams arrived at City already injured, do we know exactly when his injury occurred?

Has it ever been stated whether Walsh was injured while at Coventry or in training after coming back to City?

With those 2 facts we could ascertain whether Walsh really been out injured for so much longer than Williams.

Either way, both are taking an inordinate amount of time to regain fitness, presumably not their fault, and City have form for sticking by injured players and renewing contracts if they rate them or feel loyalty towards them - Korey Smith for instance iirc.

Williams has a brand spanking new 4 (?) year contract, so no immediate concerns there - even if this puzzling saga goes on and we lose him for most of this season, we should still benefit for another 3.

As far as we know the contract offer is still open to Walsh despite ongoing injury worries, yet he seems reluctant to sign it.

What we don't know is what terms have been offered on this new contract.

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2 hours ago, bcfcnick said:

Yes,  there is a strong possibility that he won't sign.  We'll still get compensated if he is intent on signing elsewhere.

That fee will be decided by a tribunal as he will still be under 24 when his contract expires.   There is a strong case for getting a higher fee then we paid given hie was the top rated midfielder in league 1 last year.  I think he was signed for about £1m .   Then there is the usual %  profit from future sales and that seems to be set about 20% judging by other tribunal decisions.  

Assumes we offer him a new contract for him to turn down.

I believe EPPP development compensation is different and applies to Academy products....which I don’t think Walsh would come under.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Player_Performance_Plan

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8 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

And a few observations from me.

We know Williams arrived at City already injured, do we know exactly when his injury occurred?

Has it ever been stated whether Walsh was injured while at Coventry or in training after coming back to City?

With those 2 facts we could ascertain whether Walsh really been out injured for so much longer than Williams.

Either way, both are taking an inordinate amount of time to regain fitness, presumably not their fault, and City have form for sticking by injured players and renewing contracts if they rate them or feel loyalty towards them - Korey Smith for instance iirc.

Williams has a brand spanking new 4 (?) year contract, so no immediate concerns there - even if this puzzling saga goes on and we lose him for most of this season, we should still benefit for another 3.

As far as we know the contract offer is still open to Walsh despite ongoing injury worries, yet he seems reluctant to sign it.

What we don't know is what terms have been offered on this new contract.

AFAIK, it’s never been stated when Walsh got injured, but I think I recall pictures of him in training - although not on the grass - in pre season. So I’d reckon he’s been injured at least 4 months (and again, not played for 8 )

Contract wise I think you have to acknowledge that, in the case of Korey, it was a different player - club captain, proven at this level - and was also a different time, without the Covid financial considerations. I don’t think we can rule out that both sides have got a bit itchy on the contract, and the longer the (again, really unusual) injury goes on, I’d expect the club to get itchier

 

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1 minute ago, Silvio Dante said:

AFAIK, it’s never been stated when Walsh got injured, but I think I recall pictures of him in training - although not on the grass - in pre season. So I’d reckon he’s been injured at least 4 months (and again, not played for 8 )

Contract wise I think you have to acknowledge that, in the case of Korey, it was a different player - club captain, proven at this level - and was also a different time, without the Covid financial considerations. I don’t think we can rule out that both sides have got a bit itchy on the contract, and the longer the (again, really unusual) injury goes on, I’d expect the club to get itchier

 

That's what I thought about Walsh.

Any idea on Williams?

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1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

To be fair Nick it isn’t so easy, as Jimmy Lumsden effectively swapped Super Bob, who then went on to become West Brom’s 8th highest goal scorer of all time, for someone whose 8 league goals for us included a tap in from a Junior Bent cross in a 1-1 draw at home to Southend.

Still can’t decide..

Ahhhh yes

Jimmy Lumsden Who ‘didnt Think Bob could score regularly at this level’ (Was a bystander to the conversation)

 

Yes , Ok Jimmy

We went away from playing to Bobs strengths and supply instead of playing to them if you recall , Bob had a dry spell and Pep Lumsden didn’t fancy him at this level !

🤣

Bobby Gould couldn’t believe his luck

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27 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Assumes we offer him a new contract for him to turn down.

I believe EPPP development compensation is different and applies to Academy products....which I don’t think Walsh would come under.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Player_Performance_Plan

We will obviously offer him a contract if only to ensure some compensation and I assume one is on the table.  

Gregor in his Q&A today seems to think LW will sign but also confirms we will get something if he doesn't, but not as much as we would if we had developed him through the academy.

It might be coincidence, but 6ft 3" Dean Holden, seems to favour playing a balance with at least one taller midfielder than was played under 5ft 6" LJ.  Bakinson and the signing of Joe Williams highlights that.  It makes sense and I got the impression we conceded from a fair number of headed set pieces last season plus our full backs / wing backs are both fairly small.

With neither Baklinson or WIliams available, it was quite a small midfield on Saturday.  Dean has indicated before that he sees 5ft 6" Liam Walsh as key to the way he wants to play and no doubt he is pragmatic enough to slot him in with a balance of taller players.   At the moment though, would he be ahead of a fit group of Bakinson, Paterson, Nagy and Williams?  Perhaps not, but he'd still get game time to prove himself given the intensity of matches within a short timeframe this season if he gets fit and signs.

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1 hour ago, Sheltons Army said:

Ahhhh yes

Jimmy Lumsden Who ‘didnt Think Bob could score regularly at this level’ (Was a bystander to the conversation)

 

Yes , Ok Jimmy

We went away from playing to Bobs strengths and supply instead of playing to them if you recall , Bob had a dry spell and Pep Lumsden didn’t fancy him at this level !

🤣

Bobby Gould couldn’t believe his luck

God did have problems with his hamstrings leading up to his transfer, just to play Devil’s avocat perhaps it was , wrongly, assumed that we’d seen the best of the player ? 
 

He would still be in and around the first team if I were coach .

 

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3 hours ago, GrahamC said:

someone whose 8 league goals for us included a tap in from a Junior Bent cross in a 1-1 draw at home to Southend.

No-one tapped it in for us from three yards with more style, class or elan (except Chrissy Garland, when he knelt down to nod it home from one yard against the Few). If Super Bob hadn't been goal-hanging 25 yards out waiting to thunder another one in from miles out he could've helped himself to at least 6 tap-ins in 89/90 and scored 40 that season. 

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2 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

God did have problems with his hamstrings leading up to his transfer, just to play Devil’s avocat perhaps it was , wrongly, assumed that we’d seen the best of the player ? 
 

He would still be in and around the first team if I were coach .

 

The only problem he had with his hamstrings was that they hadn’t grown into his thighs yet! 

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