Job for Cotts - Finally !

[Riaz]

On 27/11/2020 at 12:47, Robbored said:

I realise that many City fans see SC as some kind of messiah but I was never really impressed with him. I didn’t shed any tears when he got sacked.
 

I agree!!

League one, yes, he's very good at that level.

Championship he was woeful though.

[Riaz]

On 27/11/2020 at 12:57, Sheltons Army said:

Amazing that you weren’t impressed by two of our most successful managers in our lifetimes

Also the two who probably created the best buzz around the Club in my 50 yrs of supporting , with Jordan not far off

 

And both picked us up from messes at the wrong end of League One and turned us into a Championship Club 

I realise you are up to your stupid trolling but it’s laughable and somewhat pathetic  in all honesty 

er what? plenty of managers have done better.

[Sheltons Army]

19 minutes ago, Riaz said:

er what? plenty of managers have done better.

Really - who’s that then .......

Dicks and ...........

 

[Riaz]

4 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Really - who’s that then .......

Dicks and ...........

 

Every manager who has done well for us at this level?

Winning the title was great. But this division is where the good managers can operate. Cotterill isnt good enough for this level.

Gary Johnson, Lee Johnson are above him easily and Deano is going that way.

[Sheltons Army]

8 minutes ago, Riaz said:

Every manager who has done well for us at this level?

Winning the title was great. But this division is where the good managers can operate. Cotterill isnt good enough for this level.

Gary Johnson, Lee Johnson are above him easily and Deano is going that way.

If you bothered to read or comprehend I was referring to Gary Johnson

His son , not a chance , done nothing , achieved zilch ......

Talks a good game though

[Riaz]

9 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

If you bothered to read or comprehend I was referring to Gary Johnson

His son , not a chance , done nothing , achieved zilch ......

Talks a good game though

He turned us from relegation fodder under cotts to play-off challengers

We were going straight back down under Cotts.

[Bris Red]

2 minutes ago, Riaz said:

He turned up from relegation fodder under cotts to play-off challengers

We were going straight back down under Cotts.

And Johnson jnr did all that with virtually an open cheque book from the board.. its really not a fair comparison between him and Cotts who wasn’t backed half as much financially.

[Sheltons Army]

5 minutes ago, Riaz said:

He turned us from relegation fodder under cotts to play-off challengers

We were going straight back down under Cotts.

You’re favourite ‘claim’
Relegation fodder .........:laugh:

The manager you lauded , got out of relegation in the penultimate game the following season I’d remind you, despite Abraham’s goals

[CodeRed]

5 minutes ago, Riaz said:

He turned us from relegation fodder under cotts to play-off challengers

 

Which season did LJ get us in the play offs?   18th,17th,11th (and 8 points off the play offs) and 8th - looks more mid table to me.

[Riaz]

4 minutes ago, bris red said:

And Johnson jnr did all that with virtually an open cheque book from the board.. its really not a fair comparison between him and Cotts who wasn’t backed half as much financially.

 

1 minute ago, Sheltons Army said:

You’re favourite ‘claim’
Relegation fodder .........:laugh:

The manager you lauded , got out of relegation in the penultimate game the following season I’d remind you, despite Abraham’s goals

The season Cotterill got sacked you can make a direct comparison. They had virtually the same squad.

Johnson took us up the league. And Cotterill had us in the relegation zone.

People have short memories. Under cotts we looked way off. We were SO predictable and Cotts basic tactics that worked a treated in league one, didnt work at all in a much better division.

1 minute ago, CodeRed said:

Which season did LJ get us in the play offs?   18th,17th,11th (and 8 points off the play offs) and 8th - looks more mid table to me.

I did say challengers.

[Nogbad the Bad]

6 minutes ago, Riaz said:

 

The season Cotterill got sacked you can make a direct comparison. They had virtually the same squad.

 

[Bristol Oil Services]

37 minutes ago, Riaz said:

He turned us from relegation fodder under cotts to play-off challengers

We were going straight back down under Cotts.

Cotts took us from 23rd in L1, and left us 22nd in the Championship. All in two and a bit years (that's 5 transfer windows). Good work! He delivered what was needed, in quick time.

LJ took us from 20th in the Championship and left us in 12th. Four and a bit years (and 8 transfer windows). A decent job, he wasn't "clueless," but he failed to deliver what was asked of him (we might agree that what was asked of him was too much).

They had different tasks and different challenges here (one of Cotts' challenges being with himself, perhaps). I would say we were in a more desperate state when Cotts rocked up; when he got here we had just been relegated and were in the habit of struggling and not-winning, and the crowd were disillusioned. We were "going straight ... down" again. The transformation was rapid but the Championship proved too much for him (the way he went about it).

When Lee got here we had not long since been promoted, we had a shiny new ground emerging, and we had Lee Tomlin out to earn himself a lucrative contract. Also, the crowd had not yet lost faith and were still very supportive (other than the bloke scrapping with Cotts by the tunnel after Preston). It was all there for someone prepared to work with Mark Ashton and give up some control to do well.

In truth, both Cotts and LJ (along with others behind the scenes) have lifted us to a point where we are a strong (ish) top half Championship club ready to go to the next level and with our history that's pretty good going and reason to be cheerful, and we thank them both for where we are right now.

 

[Fordy62]

Johnson got sacked because he wasn’t performing for the umpteenth time (should have been sacked well before then at least twice)  

Cotterill got sacked at the first sign of trouble because Lansdown wanted to bring in a family friend. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Sheltons Army said:

You’re favourite ‘claim’
Relegation fodder .........:laugh:

The manager you lauded , got out of relegation in the penultimate game the following season I’d remind you, despite Abraham’s goals

Players added after Cotts was sacked:

• Lee Tomlin (who must’ve been going through conversations when Cotts was sacked???) from PL Bournemouth
• Peter Odemwingie from PL Stoke
• Ben Gladwin from QPR
• Alex Pearce from Derby
• Adam Matthews from PL Sunderland
• Scott Golbourne from Wolves

Cotterill has lost Elliott Bennett too earlier in the window.

@RiazTo claim we were going straight back is speculative, and just imagine Cotts being given the 3 PL players and the other 3 too?

[Fordy62]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Players added after Cotts was sacked:

• Lee Tomlin (who must’ve been going through conversations when Cotts was sacked???) from PL Bournemouth
• Peter Odemwingie from PL Stoke
• Ben Gladwin from QPR
• Alex Pearce from Derby
• Adam Matthews from PL Sunderland
• Scott Golbourne from Wolves

Cotterill has lost Elliott Bennett too earlier in the window.

@RiazTo claim we were going straight back is speculative, and just imagine Cotts being given the 3 PL players and the other 3 too?

Thanks Dave. Also worth pointing out that Cotts wanted to sign Tomlin but wasn’t allowed because of the wage structure of the club. Then LJ came in and we all know what happened to the wage structure!

18 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Johnson got sacked because he wasn’t performing for the umpteenth time (should have been sacked well before then at least twice)  

Cotterill got sacked at the first sign of trouble because Lansdown wanted to bring in a family friend. 

@Riazwhich part of this do you disagree with? 

[Riaz]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Players added after Cotts was sacked:

• Lee Tomlin (who must’ve been going through conversations when Cotts was sacked???) from PL Bournemouth
• Peter Odemwingie from PL Stoke
• Ben Gladwin from QPR
• Alex Pearce from Derby
• Adam Matthews from PL Sunderland
• Scott Golbourne from Wolves

Cotterill has lost Elliott Bennett too earlier in the window.

@RiazTo claim we were going straight back is speculative, and just imagine Cotts being given the 3 PL players and the other 3 too?

He could have had players, but he went for unrealistic players such as Gray and Gayle. Two sought after players who were wanted by the best in the division. We were newly promoted. 
 

Lansdown DID back Cotterill, but he bid something like 9m for Gayle who was never going to be interested in coming here.

You call it speculative, but we were in the relegation zone and i remember very well how we were playing. 

of the players, you listed, Only Tomlin can be considered as improving us significantly. Odemwingie, got a coupe of decent goals, so maybe you could argue he made a difference. But the rest were average at best. 
 

People really have forgot how bad we were in cotts final months 

[JBFC II]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Players added after Cotts was sacked:

• Lee Tomlin (who must’ve been going through conversations when Cotts was sacked???) from PL Bournemouth
• Peter Odemwingie from PL Stoke
• Ben Gladwin from QPR
• Alex Pearce from Derby
• Adam Matthews from PL Sunderland
• Scott Golbourne from Wolves

Cotterill has lost Elliott Bennett too earlier in the window.

@RiazTo claim we were going straight back is speculative, and just imagine Cotts being given the 3 PL players and the other 3 too?

To be fair, I don’t think Matthews and goldbourne would have signed as full backs in a 3-5-2 system.

Would have been interesting to see Tomlin and Odemwingie in Cotts system though, although Odemwingie played a fair few games as a winger, which wouldn’t have happened under Cotts obviously.

Would we have gone straight back down? It would have been interesting, especially if Cotts had stuck with the system that wasn’t working

[Fordy62]

23 minutes ago, Riaz said:

People really have forgot how bad we were in cotts final months 

Had LJ had that same run, do you think he’d have been sacked?

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, Riaz said:

He could have had players, but he went for unrealistic players such as Gray and Gayle. Two sought after players who were wanted by the best in the division. We were newly promoted. 
 

Lansdown DID back Cotterill, but he bid something like 9m for Gayle who was never going to be interested in coming here.

You call it speculative, but we were in the relegation zone and i remember very well how we were playing. 

of the players, you listed, Only Tomlin can be considered as improving us significantly. Odemwingie, got a coupe of decent goals, so maybe you could argue he made a difference. But the rest were average at best. 
 

People really have forgot how bad we were in cotts final months 

So, 2 players, one a huge improvement, another with Prem class, the others average.  Personally I though Odemwingie was class.  We only needed average....an average player improved us!  So 6 players improved on what we had.  We didn’t need much of an improvement to stay up.  It’s not like we needed top 6 form to stay up was it?

Lets not regurgitate the Summer of Gray, Gayle and Maguire and what transpired.  But it’s fair to say Cotts was let down by Pelling, who lost his job....that tells me something.

10 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

To be fair, I don’t think Matthews and goldbourne would have signed as full backs in a 3-5-2 system.

Would have been interesting to see Tomlin and Odemwingie in Cotts system though, although Odemwingie played a fair few games as a winger, which wouldn’t have happened under Cotts obviously.

Would we have gone straight back down? It would have been interesting, especially if Cotts had stuck with the system that wasn’t working

You’re missing the point.  It’s not those players themselves but 6 players that LJ had at his disposal to improve the squad.  Cotts wasn’t given the opportunity to have access to 6 players that would improve the squad.

System not necessarily the problem (Sheffield Utd got promoted with it )....6 players good enough to fit the system and compliment the existing players who were good enough.  Don’t look at it in such a binary fashion.

 

[JBFC II]

18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

So, 2 players, one a huge improvement, another with Prem class, the others average.  Personally I though Odemwingie was class.  We only needed average....an average player improved us!  So 6 players improved on what we had.  We didn’t need much of an improvement to stay up.  It’s not like we needed top 6 form to stay up was it?

Lets not regurgitate the Summer of Gray, Gayle and Maguire and what transpired.  But it’s fair to say Cotts was let down by Pelling, who lost his job....that tells me something.

You’re missing the point.  It’s not those players themselves but 6 players that LJ had at his disposal to improve the squad.  Cotts wasn’t given the opportunity to have access to 6 players that would improve the squad.

System not necessarily the problem (Sheffield Utd got promoted with it )....6 players good enough to fit the system and compliment the existing players who were good enough.  Don’t look at it in such a binary fashion.

 

Who’s to say they wouldn’t have signed if Cotts hadn’t been sacked? 
 

Its also interesting to see when the players were signed, Pearce was signed only a couple of days after Cotts left, so discussions would have been ongoing when he was at the club, so certainly not a signing that was sought after he left. Odemwingie and Matthews were both signed in March, after we’d picked up 16 points out of 30 since Cotts was sacked, I’d say our form had turned regardless of them signing or not. 
 

Tomlin obviously has a positive impact, as did Goldbourne in solidifying a leaky defence, gladwin didn’t have an impact though so you can’t really include him. 
 

Basically, after Cotts left our form turned, which had something to do with tomlins form admittedly but wasn’t solely down to the 6 players signing after he left. Cotts had opportunity over the summer to get deals over the line and for various reasons that didn’t happen, and the deals he did get done (kodjia aside) didn’t work out. It’s as much the failing systems fault, and his stubbornness to change it, as it is the inclusion of Tomlin, which may have happened anyway had he been here

[Lew-T]

4 hours ago, Riaz said:

er what? plenty of managers have done better.

Plenty have they? Please share?

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Riaz said:

Every manager who has done well for us at this level?

Winning the title was great. But this division is where the good managers can operate. Cotterill isnt good enough for this level.

Gary Johnson, Lee Johnson are above him easily and Deano is going that way.

My god wish I didn’t bother asking.

[Lanterne Rouge]

I reckon we`re still going to be discussing the what-ifs of Cotts`s reign in ten years when we`ve just won the Champions League for the third year running!

[E.G.Red]

4 hours ago, bris red said:

And Johnson jnr did all that with virtually an open cheque book from the board.. its really not a fair comparison between him and Cotts who wasn’t backed half as much financially.

Money may buy you individuals, but it doesn’t necessarily buy a team. 

[Davefevs]

53 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Who’s to say they wouldn’t have signed if Cotts hadn’t been sacked? 
 

Its also interesting to see when the players were signed, Pearce was signed only a couple of days after Cotts left, so discussions would have been ongoing when he was at the club, so certainly not a signing that was sought after he left. Odemwingie and Matthews were both signed in March, after we’d picked up 16 points out of 30 since Cotts was sacked, I’d say our form had turned regardless of them signing or not. 
 

Tomlin obviously has a positive impact, as did Goldbourne in solidifying a leaky defence, gladwin didn’t have an impact though so you can’t really include him. 
 

Basically, after Cotts left our form turned, which had something to do with tomlins form admittedly but wasn’t solely down to the 6 players signing after he left. Cotts had opportunity over the summer to get deals over the line and for various reasons that didn’t happen, and the deals he did get done (kodjia aside) didn’t work out. It’s as much the failing systems fault, and his stubbornness to change it, as it is the inclusion of Tomlin, which may have happened anyway had he been here

I’m not talking about individual players I’m talking about the fact that LJ had 6 players Cotts didn’t have.  It could have been any 6 players.  It was 6 players to make a difference.  It might’ve only needed Tomlin to be enough of a difference to keep us up.

Im not sure what your argument you’re trying to make.

My response was to Riaz about us definitely going down.  You’ve changed the point of discussion.  It was a general point that Cotts was unlikely to play the second half of the season with the squad he had at the time of sacking, and therefore to be so sure we were going down, when we were two points behind MK and three behind Rotherham with 20 games to go, seems anything but sure.

[Fordy62]

29 minutes ago, E.G.Red said:

Money may buy you individuals, but it doesn’t necessarily buy a team. 

Yep. Johnson bought a lot of individuals. Under Cotts we had a team. 

[JBFC II]

25 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m not talking about individual players I’m talking about the fact that LJ had 6 players Cotts didn’t have.  It could have been any 6 players.  It was 6 players to make a difference.  It might’ve only needed Tomlin to be enough of a difference to keep us up.

Im not sure what your argument you’re trying to make.

My response was to Riaz about us definitely going down.  You’ve changed the point of discussion.  It was a general point that Cotts was unlikely to play the second half of the season with the squad he had at the time of sacking, and therefore to be so sure we were going down, when we were two points behind MK and three behind Rotherham with 20 games to go, seems anything but sure.

The point I’m making is that Cotts has the finances and opportunity to bring in those players and yet didnt. Even before half those players were brought in, our form had still made a u-turn, it’s easy to put that down to the addition of a few new players, but it could also have as much to do with the guy in charge of the team, and his sticking to a tactic that was, at that point, taking us down.

Cotts’ stubbornness to change from the players and tactics that took us up were his downfall, not the fact that after he left we brought in a few new players, one of whom made a difference

[Sheltons Army]

2 hours ago, Riaz said:

He could have had players, but he went for unrealistic players such as Gray and Gayle. Two sought after players who were wanted by the best in the division. We were newly promoted. 
 

Lansdown DID back Cotterill, but he bid something like 9m for Gayle who was never going to be interested in coming here.

You call it speculative, but we were in the relegation zone and i remember very well how we were playing. 

of the players, you listed, Only Tomlin can be considered as improving us significantly. Odemwingie, got a coupe of decent goals, so maybe you could argue he made a difference. But the rest were average at best. 
 

People really have forgot how bad we were in cotts final months 

No we wern’t

Another incorrect soundbite you always like to try and throw In to try and substantiate your argument

 

 

 

[JBFC II]

Just now, Sheltons Army said:

No we wern’t

 

We were 22nd when he was sacked, 2 points from safety

[Sheltons Army]

.

[Davefevs]

31 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

The point I’m making is that Cotts has the finances and opportunity to bring in those players and yet didnt. Even before half those players were brought in, our form had still made a u-turn, it’s easy to put that down to the addition of a few new players, but it could also have as much to do with the guy in charge of the team, and his sticking to a tactic that was, at that point, taking us down.

Cotts’ stubbornness to change from the players and tactics that took us up were his downfall, not the fact that after he left we brought in a few new players, one of whom made a difference

What finances?

What opportunity?

Why those players?

What is the relevance of that to my point.  Try responding to that first, then we can move onto those points if you like 

The point I’m making that you’re trying to ignore is that for Riaz to base a “sure thing” of relegation for a side that was only 2 points from safety with 20 games to go is pretty bonkers.  To base that on a position with 17 days of a transfer window left is more bonkers, and then the triple-bonkers was that he could still recruit 93 day emergency loans between 9th Feb to 26th March.  So much could happen in that remaining period, as in fact it actually did.  It’s not a Cotterill / LJ thing...although you always try that lens....it’s just a pure timing debate, e.g. it was too early to be sure

Nobody is trying to say we would definitely have stayed up either.  Guess what, it was too early to be sure of that.

What I am saying (again ) is that Riaz can have no certainty that we were going down.  I have no problem with him having his opinion / prediction, but he constantly says it was guaranteed.

Do you agree?