Semenyo is not a striker they score goals

[robin_unreliant]

4 minutes ago, Better Red said:

Seymeno weekly update on ‘I told you so’ 

Game 20 something goals = 0

I told you so....  

It's times like this when I miss the old aubergine. 

[Sheltons Army]

6 minutes ago, Better Red said:

Seymeno weekly update on ‘I told you so’ 

Game 20 something goals = 0

I told you so....  

thanks Pep

Managing Cadbury Heath U6’s appears to have gone to your head

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Better Red said:

Seymeno weekly update on ‘I told you so’ 

Game 20 something goals = 0

I told you so....  

wow.  Well done you!

Yet for many (me included) he was our best player yesterday.

For all my criticism of O’Dowda over the while, I’ve never wanted anything more than for him to come good and fulfil the potential he has.  He bloody winds me up, but I’ve never wanted a player to fail to prove my judgement right.

What a fan.

[Better Red]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

wow.  Well done you!

Yet for many (me included) he was our best player yesterday.

For all my criticism of O’Dowda over the while, I’ve never wanted anything more than for him to come good and fulfil the potential he has.  He bloody winds me up, but I’ve never wanted a player to fail to prove my judgement right.

What a fan.

It’s not about being a fan. It’s about saying what you see.

The real question is if I can see that why can’t the coaches. Maybe the can and maybe they have tried to improve that side of his game but he still does not like scoring. 

On O’Dowda another player who plays in a front line and does not score.

Have they booth played well ? Yes but and it’s a big but they don’t score goals. Not a few - None 

If we as a club want to progress then they have start to score. If not move them on.  If that means they both leave them so be it. 

I want the best for the club and sometimes that means making hard decisions.

Massengo another one if you listen to people on hear he would be in the team. Just not good enough. I have know idea what they have seen this year. When everyone is fit won’t even be in the squad.
 

Yesterday it was Adelakun and again not going to make at this level.  Offered nothing and got dragged off.
 

Lets be honest and say what we see not what we want to see.

Not sure what the problem is I said he ain’t got a goal him at this level and as of now I am right. Happy not really I would love to have been wrong but I am not.

It’s not about being negative it’s about honest and saying what you see.
 

As for a fan - Yes

 

 

[DaveF]

3 hours ago, Better Red said:

Seymeno weekly update on ‘I told you so’ 

Game 20 something goals = 0

I told you so....  

He doesn't play as a striker though, he plays as a winger?

[Better Red]

1 hour ago, DaveF said:

He doesn't play as a striker though, he plays as a winger?

That was pretty much my original point. He ain’t a striker as he will never score goals.

The only problem he is now a winger who dont score.. That ain’t what we need another player who can’t score. The squad is full of them.... 

I think him and O’dawda must be something like 60 plus games and zero goals.  Even I know that does not sound right for a winger.

[Davefevs]

Semenyo has two goals this season btw (and 6 assists).

[Phileas Fogg]

12 hours ago, Better Red said:

Seymeno weekly update on ‘I told you so’ 

Game 20 something goals = 0

I told you so....  

Are you admitting here that you have a desire to say 'I told you so'?

You've completely missed the point or misunderstood the obvious point in my post - give young players time. 

Your point of view is just reactionary and naïve - and that's being kind!

 

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Phileas Fogg

[SecretSam]

On 28/11/2020 at 16:14, bexhill reds said:

I’d agree with that to, drop the shoulder, knock it past the full back, sprint onto the ball and knock it into Robbie Turner, who chests it down for Taylor to knock it in, and then making your way from the back to the front of the shed.... That was my football when I was 16...

:laugh:, as often as not, Smith's crosses ended up hitting a bus outside the ground.

[SecretSam]

On 28/11/2020 at 15:36, big dosser said:

the words traditional winger is the problem in todays game there is no traditional wingers anymore due to the way sides play,how many times now do we all scream at the tv to whip the ball in and it gets passed back.i feel football is turning into a chess match.bring back alan walsh

Alan Walsh was a striker that Cooper converted to a winger. And he last played when I was in my late-teens/early 20s.

I am 51 now.

Let's look forward (sic), not back.

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

Alan Walsh was a striker that Cooper converted to a winger. And he last played when I was in my late-teens/early 20s.

I am 51 now.

Let's look forward (sic), not back.

My favourite City player.

[TonyTonyTony]

9 hours ago, Better Red said:

 He ain’t a striker as he will never score goals.

What utter nonsense. Semenyo is probably our most creative spark at the moment. You can see him growing every game - it wouldnt surprise me to see him banging them in once his confidence is up and he has hit the back of the net a few times. 

At the beginning of his career Marcus Rashford was criticized for not scoring and labelled a winger. 

Semenyo is so young it is absurd to label him as you are doing. Its almost like you want him to fail, so you can say "i told you so". Pathetic really

Edited January 12, 2021 by TonyTonyTony

[RedRock]

11 hours ago, Better Red said:

It’s not about being a fan. It’s about saying what you see.

The real question is if I can see that why can’t the coaches. Maybe the can and maybe they have tried to improve that side of his game but he still does not like scoring. 

On O’Dowda another player who plays in a front line and does not score.

Have they booth played well ? Yes but and it’s a big but they don’t score goals. Not a few - None 

If we as a club want to progress then they have start to score. If not move them on.  If that means they both leave them so be it. 

I want the best for the club and sometimes that means making hard decisions.

Massengo another one if you listen to people on hear he would be in the team. Just not good enough. I have know idea what they have seen this year. When everyone is fit won’t even be in the squad.
 

Yesterday it was Adelakun and again not going to make at this level.  Offered nothing and got dragged off.
 

Lets be honest and say what we see not what we want to see.

Not sure what the problem is I said he ain’t got a goal him at this level and as of now I am right. Happy not really I would love to have been wrong but I am not.

It’s not about being negative it’s about honest and saying what you see.
 

As for a fan - Yes

 

 

Agree, in general, but a very few players are worth persevering with. Semenyo is a possible candidate imo.

The problem with the Bobby Reid example is for every Bobby there are at least forty who still won’t make it, even by the age of 89 and playing every week.

Our player development strategy is not sufficiently ruthless at identifying and rejecting those who are not good enough. This breeds complacency, in turn, that supresses rapid development of player potential imo. 

 

 

[tin]

It was interesting watching him on the right (I refuse to use the term 'wing' because he almost always tried to drift inside) against Pompey. Because of that, I think he's pretty easy to defend against if you show him inside and ask him to shoot from distance, often with his weaker foot. 

He's far more effective getting to the byline on the left and firing across goal, that how he's got most of his assists so far this season but he seems reluctant to do it. He has all the raw attributes to be a decent player, but he's not a natural finisher and it frustrates me when he chooses to shoot when a teammate's in a better position to receive a pass. The lack of a football brain is pretty obvious, but he's not the finished product. 

Edited January 12, 2021 by tin

[SecretSam]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

My favourite City player.

Mine is God Taylor, but that was many years ago. It's a different game now, more technical, much faster, better pitches, different balls (oo-err). 

If we're looking back to that era for a player we could do with now, I would suggest Dave Rennie. Or maybe Shelton.

[B1ackbird]

20 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

Mine is God Taylor, but that was many years ago. It's a different game now, more technical, much faster, better pitches, different balls (oo-err). 

If we're looking back to that era for a player we could do with now, I would suggest Dave Rennie. Or maybe Shelton.

Shelts would be good me thinks. Antoine blazing over the bar can be frustrating but having shots to score 1 or 2 Worldies a season is a good return?!? Hopefully. 

Clive Whitehead used to cut inside and hit it as hard as he could, sometimes ending up in the Park (not the end) 

[Phileas Fogg]

52 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Agree, in general, but a very few players are worth persevering with. Semenyo is a possible candidate imo.

The problem with the Bobby Reid example is for every Bobby there are at least forty who still won’t make it, even by the age of 89 and playing every week.

Our player development strategy is not sufficiently ruthless at identifying and rejecting those who are not good enough. This breeds complacency, in turn, that supresses rapid development of player potential imo. 

Of course, I'm not advocating endless patience and time for young players - it's unrealistic. For example I think we're approaching the stage of their careers where we perhaps need to make tough decisions about the likes of Vyner and Moore if we want to push forwards as a club. 

Bobby Reid is actually a really good example because he absolutely was someone who was in 'last chance saloon'. He was 24 almost 25 before he came good and we'd persevered with him for ages. I am not saying we should extend the same patience with every single young player, but he's such an outlier it highlights how young players develop and different rates. 

My main point about Semenyo is that we're lucky we have a player who has all the untrainable assets - Reid didn't. He's fairly small and slight, that's not necessarily a bad thing for a footballer - but in the modern game it's generally better to be taller and athletic; especially as a forward. That adds even more weight behind why Semenyo should be persevered with. 

Clearly, it would be better if he was scoring goals. I am certain it'll come. People need to ease off him a little and tame their desire to be 'proven right' so they can say 'I told you so' on OTIB. 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Phileas Fogg

[2015]

Give Semenyo a chance, he will score goals for us in the future I think. Strikers/Attacking players, especially young ones need to be given the opportunity to show what they can do, it's only half a season. 

We, as a club in the past few years have been too quickly to write off attacking players who have gone on to do well - Woodrow, Robinson, Kent to name but a few.

He has done well this season in a poor team imo, he will get better

[Alessandro]

I can understand the frustration with Semenyo - he looks so good at times and has all the attributes - as I said in the match day thread “Everything but the goal!”

Fine to ask if he is a natural goal scorer but you’ve got to then ask can he learn and improve through coaching and experience.

I’m no-where near writing him off.

[Phileas Fogg]

2 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

I can understand the frustration with Semenyo - he looks so good at times and has all the attributes - as I said in the match day thread “Everything but the goal!”

Fine to ask if he is a natural goal scorer but you’ve got to then ask can he learn and improve through coaching and experience.

I’m no-where near writing him off.

My instinct is that he can. My big point in defence of him is that he has the uncoachable physical attributes already - and those are things you're either born with or you're not. 

Not coming from a typical academy background he's not going to be as polished as others who were - sometimes though coming from a less conventional route can be an advantage (see Trundle) as they don't lose the instinctive 'street footballer' elements of their game. 

I think the attributes of goalscoring - positioning, finishing, general awareness of attacking play - can be trained. My prediction is that if he continues getting regular games and stays here then he'll be our main goalscoring forward within 2 seasons. 

 

[TonyTonyTony]

2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think the attributes of goalscoring - positioning, finishing, general awareness of attacking play - can be trained. My prediction is that if he continues getting regular games and stays here then he'll be our main goalscoring forward within 2 seasons. 

I agree with the first part. Its also about game experience, and developing a calmness about finishing which only comes with match experience and time on the pitch

[LondonBristolian]

11 hours ago, Better Red said:

That was pretty much my original point. He ain’t a striker as he will never score goals.

The only problem he is now a winger who dont score.. That ain’t what we need another player who can’t score. The squad is full of them.... 

I think him and O’dawda must be something like 60 plus games and zero goals.  Even I know that does not sound right for a winger.

I feel I have been proven similarly right on Louis Britton. I knew he'd never make it in the first team and I must be right because he is currently playing non-league football at Stockport.

Obviously far more foolish posters than I will reply with absurd comments such as "he's only 19" or "give him a bit of time FFS" but that's obvious nonsense. I can judge a young player's entire career trajectory based on right now and say that I told everyone so. 

[LondonBristolian]

Incidentally when Theirry Henry was Semenyo's age, he had scored 19 times in 94 league games. Better than Semenyo but still evidence that 21 is very young to judge a player. 

[IAmNick]

I agree with people saying he needs time on the pitch and a bit of perseverance - but do you think the Championship is the right place for that?

Ideally for me he'd be at a L1 club (top 6 preferably) and playing most games for them this season.

[hinsleburg]

I've been really impressed with Semenyo this year compared to what we saw previously when he played for us.

Ideally, I think he would best be utilised as an Impact sub currently, I think him running at tired defences for a shorter period of time would benefit him and the team a lot more. But the issue with that is we have nobody else who offers us the pace and power that he does from the start, so unless we went back to 532 I feel like he has to play. The issue with 532 for me is the midfield currenrtly, if we assume that Nagy has to play on current form and likely Bakinson due to his deeper lying nature who takes the 3rd spot?

Massengo would offer energy and feel like he needs a role where he can harass and press players as opposed to being the holding player like he was at the start of the season. Think with a run of games  he could be very effective but currently he's not offering enough to be given a run of games...

Palmer, if fit, would offer the creativity and 'x factor' that would be missing without Semenyo. Contrary to popular opinion I also don't believe he's lazy and felt at the start of last season he offered a LOT defensively and covered a lot of ground. Obviously then he was out of the side and we didn't really see that again from him, in a weird way I think he was probably told to go on and NOT press/harass and try to be in space for breakaways for when we won the ball back. As mentioned elsewhere think Palmer is reliant on players around him to be effective so Wells would need to play however the lack of width with JD injured would limit his passing opportunities and I guess lead to giving the ball away/taking too long.

With all that in mind I'd quite like to see a Midfield 3 of Vyner, Nagy and Bakinson. Gives Bakinson a bit more freedom and potentially he can be that more creative outlet with Nagy moving the ball quickly and buzzing about.

Think those 3 in midfield gives us the option to play 532/352 without Semenyo or 433 with him.

For me, I'd be tempted to go back to 532 with Mawson back and use Semenyo as a plan B. Think there is a definite player in there but his game time needs to be managed to ensure he's as effective as possible whilst on the pitch. Right now I see him as more of a winger than a central striker so to have the option of changing formation mid game is a big positve for Holden and hopeully he can find a way to utilise that, and Semenyo as effectively as possible.

If he does get a goal, I think he could blow up in the best possible way.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, RedRock said:

Agree, in general, but a very few players are worth persevering with. Semenyo is a possible candidate imo.

The problem with the Bobby Reid example is for every Bobby there are at least forty who still won’t make it, even by the age of 89 and playing every week.

Our player development strategy is not sufficiently ruthless at identifying and rejecting those who are not good enough. This breeds complacency, in turn, that supresses rapid development of player potential imo. 

 

 

With Bobby there were probably some who thought he was worth persevering that bit longer because he was under-sized.  Even as a kid he was held back because he was small.  I saw the season before the potential when he scored 4 in the opening 10 games from midfield.  He was in Tomlin’s wavelength but got sacrificed because Tomlin was too much of a luxury to have both.

1 hour ago, tin said:

It was interesting watching him on the right (I refuse to use the term 'wing' because he almost always tried to drift inside) against Pompey. Because of that, I think he's pretty easy to defend against if you show him inside and ask him to shoot from distance, often with his weaker foot. 

He's far more effective getting to the byline on the left and firing across goal, that how he's got most of his assists so far this season but he seems reluctant to do it. He has all the raw attributes to be a decent player, but he's not a natural finisher and it frustrates me when he chooses to shoot when a teammate's in a better position to receive a pass. The lack of a football brain is pretty obvious, but he's not the finished product. 

I think he is actually left footed.  I think he’s comfortable on his right too, but favours his left.  His control and skills / dribbles are predominantly left footed.

I prefer him on the left, but on Sunday he was really good on the right and hardly involved on the left.

1 hour ago, SecretSam said:

Mine is God Taylor, but that was many years ago. It's a different game now, more technical, much faster, better pitches, different balls (oo-err). 

If we're looking back to that era for a player we could do with now, I would suggest Dave Rennie. Or maybe Shelton.

Ooooooh, now there’s a pairing we could do with now.  And also if we are talking about CB playing CM then as a City fan, Rennie is the benchmark.

44 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Of course, I'm not advocating endless patience and time for young players - it's unrealistic. For example I think we're approaching the stage of their careers where we perhaps need to make tough decisions about the likes of Vyner and Moore if we want to push forwards as a club. 

Bobby Reid is actually a really good example because he absolutely was someone who was in 'last chance saloon'. He was 24 almost 25 before he came good and we'd persevered with him for ages. I am not saying we should extend the same patience with every single young player, but he's such an outlier it highlights how young players develop and different rates. 

My main point about Semenyo is that we're lucky we have a player who has all the untrainable assets - Reid didn't. He's fairly small and slight, that's not necessarily a bad thing for a footballer - but in the modern game it's generally better to be taller and athletic; especially as a forward. That adds even more weight behind why Semenyo should be persevered with. 

Clearly, it would be better if he was scoring goals. I am certain it'll come. People need to ease off him a little and tame their desire to be 'proven right' so they can say 'I told you so' on OTIB. 

With Bobby if we ignore that he made his debut in the Championship pre-relegation, in effect he was trying to breakthrough whilst the club was also improving....in effect the goalposts (no pun) kept moving.  He eventually caught up in 16/17 with much more regular involvement, then went stellar on us in 17/18, coupled with a positional change.  I still think he would’ve had a good (albeit not so good) season had he still played in midfield, but I’m glad he did well up top.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, hinsleburg said:

I've been really impressed with Semenyo this year compared to what we saw previously when he played for us.

Ideally, I think he would best be utilised as an Impact sub currently, I think him running at tired defences for a shorter period of time would benefit him and the team a lot more. But the issue with that is we have nobody else who offers us the pace and power that he does from the start, so unless we went back to 532 I feel like he has to play. The issue with 532 for me is the midfield currenrtly, if we assume that Nagy has to play on current form and likely Bakinson due to his deeper lying nature who takes the 3rd spot?

Massengo would offer energy and feel like he needs a role where he can harass and press players as opposed to being the holding player like he was at the start of the season. Think with a run of games  he could be very effective but currently he's not offering enough to be given a run of games...

Palmer, if fit, would offer the creativity and 'x factor' that would be missing without Semenyo. Contrary to popular opinion I also don't believe he's lazy and felt at the start of last season he offered a LOT defensively and covered a lot of ground. Obviously then he was out of the side and we didn't really see that again from him, in a weird way I think he was probably told to go on and NOT press/harass and try to be in space for breakaways for when we won the ball back. As mentioned elsewhere think Palmer is reliant on players around him to be effective so Wells would need to play however the lack of width with JD injured would limit his passing opportunities and I guess lead to giving the ball away/taking too long.

With all that in mind I'd quite like to see a Midfield 3 of Vyner, Nagy and Bakinson. Gives Bakinson a bit more freedom and potentially he can be that more creative outlet with Nagy moving the ball quickly and buzzing about.

Think those 3 in midfield gives us the option to play 532/352 without Semenyo or 433 with him.

For me, I'd be tempted to go back to 532 with Mawson back and use Semenyo as a plan B. Think there is a definite player in there but his game time needs to be managed to ensure he's as effective as possible whilst on the pitch. Right now I see him as more of a winger than a central striker so to have the option of changing formation mid game is a big positve for Holden and hopeully he can find a way to utilise that, and Semenyo as effectively as possible.

If he does get a goal, I think he could blow up in the best possible way.

What a good post

[JoeAman08]

He has just turned 21 ffs! He has no academy upbringing so is behind in those terms too. All that and he is our top creator in terms of assists. 
 

For me, the game is too quick for him at the minute. The more he plays the more it slows down. Anyone who has played any sport knows what I mean. It can feel chaotic at times and always feels like you have half a second to react. Over time when you work on it more and replay situations over on your head, that half a second turns into more time than it once did. It allows more time to make decisions. No guarantee it gets to a level where Semenyo is a 20 goal scorer mind you but it will get to the point where he contributes goals. 
 

I said a few weeks back he reminds me of Raheem Sterling a bit. Not the talent level but how people perceive their games. At Liverpool he was a clear talent but no one would have thought he’d score 25-30 goals a season. A lot of that was Pep for sure but it goes to show how much players can improve between their early and mid 20s. Bobby Reid another fantastic example. Some will say these are possibly exceptions to the rule but there are examples all across Europe. 
 

I can’t say for sure Antoine will ever be a top level championship player or premier league calibre. I can say he has all the physical and technical attributes to do so. It is now down to a couple things.

Coaching will be a big part of his development. We brought in people for this. Other than goals Antoine has developed a lot more to his game than we once saw. 
 

Then his mental strength. AS needs to keep working and this is the hard part. He needs to want to be a premier league player. He needs to be able to take the coaching and apply it to games.

He needs time. He needs this season and he will need next. Maybe after then we can start thinking time to move on. This for sure is not the time to get impatient with him. 
 

 

[Phileas Fogg]

40 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

With Bobby there were probably some who thought he was worth persevering that bit longer because he was under-sized.  Even as a kid he was held back because he was small.  I saw the season before the potential when he scored 4 in the opening 10 games from midfield.  He was in Tomlin’s wavelength but got sacrificed because Tomlin was too much of a luxury to have both.

I think he is actually left footed.  I think he’s comfortable on his right too, but favours his left.  His control and skills / dribbles are predominantly left footed.

I prefer him on the left, but on Sunday he was really good on the right and hardly involved on the left.

Ooooooh, now there’s a pairing we could do with now.  And also if we are talking about CB playing CM then as a City fan, Rennie is the benchmark.

With Bobby if we ignore that he made his debut in the Championship pre-relegation, in effect he was trying to breakthrough whilst the club was also improving....in effect the goalposts (no pun) kept moving.  He eventually caught up in 16/17 with much more regular involvement, then went stellar on us in 17/18, coupled with a positional change.  I still think he would’ve had a good (albeit not so good) season had he still played in midfield, but I’m glad he did well up top.

Interestingly coaches have had faith in Reid for years. At his age group in the academy, he was kept behind a year quite often due to his size. The coaches rated him as comfortably the best talent on the books so persevered with him. 

I know a player who was in Bobby's age group who could never understand why Reid was given such patience when other players who he rated (such as Scott Wilson) didn't make the grade. Also demonstrates sometimes that players don't always 'know' - understandable perhaps considering they were teenagers at the time - and that some coaches do know what they're talking about even if results take a while to come to fruition. 

There were a few really good coaches at the academy level during that time who knew their stuff, no idea how many are about now. 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Phileas Fogg

[Top Robin]

He is DEVELOPING into a very good player. Still young and will eventually iron out the mistakes of inexperience. Stick with him and he will only get better.