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Squad needs more investment to keep us I. The top six


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After reflecting on yesterday’s disappointment I started to think about what we have and how far we really are away from a side that can stay in the Promotion hunt. I left the loan players out as not sure how much we will see of them.

Players who are good enough to get us into Top Six -

Bentley Dasilva Kalas Baker Vyner Wells, Martin, Seymeno, Bakinson, Pato, Williams, 
 

Players for the bench until we have better players in -

Wieman, Palmer, Hunt, Walsh, Naggy

Players not good enough -

Massengo, T-Moore, O’Dowda, Brunt, Fammy, Rowe

Players we need -

1 x Striker play on the shoulder

1 x RB who can over lap 

1 x Midfield who can get 6+ goals

1 x winger pace and can carry the ball

The conclusion is that we are 2 windows away from having a squad good enough to establish ourselves as a team regularly competing in the top six.  We are just a little to light at the moment to stay in the top six unless we get all the players back before January and get 2 or 3 who can push the players in my top list above in the Jan window. 
Hopefully Deano and MA can make some hard decisions on who to move on and be brave enough in recruitment in January.                                 
This is probably our best year to get promoted with the back drop of Covid.  Do we gamble? For me yes price of players and wages will never be lower and we should take advantage before normal service is resumed. 


 

 

 

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What’s interesting here is that included in players good enough for top six are Vyner, Semenyo, Bakinson.

If you’d written this post at the start of the season, you wouldn’t have put any of those in.

As well as Tyreeq and Antoine have done, you’re basing their inclusion on single figure games at this level. Zak has more games but before this year, nobody would have had him top six.

I just don’t think you have enough evidence for the conclusion reached.

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I agree I think we need more to be a real promotion contender but disagree with your opinions on the squad and bringing in new players. 
 

First off, with the squad, I think we have solutions and possible solutions to our weaknesses. Walsh and Williams could really up our midfield quality when they return. Williams more of a sure thing and Walsh has the ability to be good. Add them to Bakinson and could be as strong a midfield 3 in the division with plenty of room to grow.
 

Then we have Baker, Kalas and Mawson missing. Any two of those 3 is a top half championship pairing. Vyner has come along very nicely and is solidifying himself as a starting champ CB. Dasilva is a good LB and personally think you would find it tough to find another RB in the division that can do what Hunt does. Top half RB imo especially at the minute. Fullback is so tough in this league so easy to look poor imo. 
 

Forward options I think maybe our weakest when the entire team is full strength. Martin, Wells and Fam are all solid players but imo more role players than key players. I think I’d like to see us move away from Fam and Martin some and go to a front 3 of Pato Wells and Semenyo. Think you get good mix of creativity, mobility and finishing ability in that and all clever enough to get hold of the ball and hold it up in their way. Enough work rate from them as well to be part of a good defensive performance. 
 

Now with bringing in new players, I think we are pushed to the limit anyway. I don’t think there is the scope to improve the squad the way you want in terms of incomings. I don’t think that will ever be our strength as long as we are in this division without being promoted and coming back down. It is why we need to nail recruiting. We have been too hit and miss imo. Also too many different ideas of who to recruit.

We need to make the most of every season. Doesn’t need to be playoff contenders. It can be an up and down season where our young players grow and I think that is where we are now. Semenyo, Walsh, Williams, Bakinson, Moore, Dasilva and Vyner. All quite young players and in most cases we are finding out if they can hack it with us or not. If we can bring these along we can prep better for future seasons. And who knows? Possibly a few grow even more during the season and we make that push. 

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I agree with the sentiment and in fact the brutal takeaway from yesterday's game, imo, was the difference in investment. this is in no way a pop at SL it just is what it is. they had, on the whole, better players. 

I don't agree with your assessment of the squad tho and I think Adam Nagy is one of the few real quality players we have as he showed, again, yesterday. 

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City have enough quality players to feature well all season - If/ when Deano has a full squad to select from City will be a formidable outfit.

With the likes of Mawson, Baker, Wiemann, Sessegnon, Walsh, Williams would all  probably walk into the current team all missing thru injury shows what quality is available when all fully fit.

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After 2 seasons struggling against relegation, we’ve been a mid-table team for the last 3 seasons.  Our squad is not overall any better than it was for the last two seasons with our best players leaving season on season.  That’s why the bookies have us as finishing somewhere between 10th and 12th.  
 

With a total novice Head Coach, our results have been exceeding our level, even if performances have not, with only 2 of our 7 wins being deserved on balance of play (Stoke and Sheffield Wednesday). The other 5 wins have been battling wins against the odds, often horrible to watch.  You can’t keep doing that and will inevitably slide down the table, as we have done on each of the last 3 seasons.
 

Our squad is largely full of mid-ranking Championship players plus some who haven’t proved themselves at that level yet.   Remember that getting in the play offs means you have improved your chances from a 12.5% chance at the start of the season to a 25% chance after playing 46 matches.  In recent seasons, two of the play off teams are a level above two that squeeze in.

So yes, significant investment is needed should we have real intent to get promoted. 

 

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Too much emphasis placed on result must equal performance, and that performance must equal free-flowing football.

More than one way to win a football match.

For too long we bemoan teams being well-drilled and taking points off of us.  Now, we show signs of being well-drilled and it’s gains criticism.

Watching a lot of games this season, quality attacking football is being replaced by pragmatism.  The injury issues are changing approaches.  Brentford on Friday we’re nowhere near the playing style of old.  Lots of teams passing the ball in front of the opposition.

I suspect many fans are saying they aren’t playing well, don’t deserve the results they’ve got, etc. This season’s Champ is a different one.

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20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Too much emphasis placed on result must equal performance, and that performance must equal free-flowing football.

More than one way to win a football match.

For too long we bemoan teams being well-drilled and taking points off of us.  Now, we show signs of being well-drilled and it’s gains criticism.

Watching a lot of games this season, quality attacking football is being replaced by pragmatism.  The injury issues are changing approaches.  Brentford on Friday we’re nowhere near the playing style of old.  Lots of teams passing the ball in front of the opposition.

I suspect many fans are saying they aren’t playing well, don’t deserve the results they’ve got, etc. This season’s Champ is a different one.

Great post - one many should digest IMHO

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Theoretically I guess you are right, it does need investment, realistically it’s unlikely to happen in the next two windows at least apart from if we manage to pick up some freebies next summer but I’d expect anyone who’s half decent & available will have a long list of suitors.

Yes SL is loaded but he is limited as to how much he can throw at the squad & I don’t see him giving the green light to spend millions in January when players could be available for free in the summer unless a) we are still in the running for promotion & desperate to fill positions because injuries are still impacting the squad & b) there are real bargains to be had. As shown with the price we were rumoured to of paid for Williams.

Of course, it is highly likely that there will be a few clubs out there desperate to shift players because of the financial impact of the virus but what standard will those players be?

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39 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Too much emphasis placed on result must equal performance, and that performance must equal free-flowing football.

More than one way to win a football match.

For too long we bemoan teams being well-drilled and taking points off of us.  Now, we show signs of being well-drilled and it’s gains criticism.

Watching a lot of games this season, quality attacking football is being replaced by pragmatism.  The injury issues are changing approaches.  Brentford on Friday we’re nowhere near the playing style of old.  Lots of teams passing the ball in front of the opposition.

I suspect many fans are saying they aren’t playing well, don’t deserve the results they’ve got, etc. This season’s Champ is a different one.

And yet don't coaches routinely say that they focus on performance more than results? Wisely since results can be deceptive in the short term.

We had an unbeaten run at the start of last season after being schooled by Leeds but performances were not convincing so we regressed to the mean and finished in a position our performances deserved.

Had we scraped an underserved draw yesterday I doubt Holden would have been praising the performance or saying it didn't matter because we got a result.

Over time if the level of performance doesn't improve I expect us to regress again.

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Too much emphasis placed on result must equal performance, and that performance must equal free-flowing football.

More than one way to win a football match.

For too long we bemoan teams being well-drilled and taking points off of us.  Now, we show signs of being well-drilled and it’s gains criticism.

Watching a lot of games this season, quality attacking football is being replaced by pragmatism.  The injury issues are changing approaches.  Brentford on Friday we’re nowhere near the playing style of old.  Lots of teams passing the ball in front of the opposition.

I suspect many fans are saying they aren’t playing well, don’t deserve the results they’ve got, etc. This season’s Champ is a different one.

100%.

I am no great fan of Warnock but this season more than ever, his methods make sense.

Low possession football, slow the game down & try to make the most of limited opportunities.

Impossible to take the OP seriously, as basically none of us are supporting the club financially this season, it is all coming from Steve Lansdown & Sky & we are losing millions.

No one is spending money, not even the ex Prem teams, the usual suspects like Cardiff are chucking around huge sums on wages (how’s that working out?) but to think we will go on some spending spree mid pandemic is delusional, even for OTIB.

 

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1 hour ago, chinapig said:

And yet don't coaches routinely say that they focus on performance more than results? Wisely since results can be deceptive in the short term.

We had an unbeaten run at the start of last season after being schooled by Leeds but performances were not convincing so we regressed to the mean and finished in a position our performances deserved.

Had we scraped an underserved draw yesterday I doubt Holden would have been praising the performance or saying it didn't matter because we got a result.

Over time if the level of performance doesn't improve I expect us to regress again.

Yes and no!

If we take yesterday as the level of performance over a period of time then yes, ultimately that type of performance isn’t good enough...and you could rightly expect us to slip down the table.

But if yesterday is a one-off / less regular occurrence then that’s not the ‘mean’. I don’t think yesterday is a reflection of what I’ve seen this season.  And therefore I’m not concerned at this point.

Let’s also see how others are coping too!

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I actually believe the squad is top 6 ready as is. Certainly if we were injury free, but I’ll leave that as we’ve discussed it to death. 

False position or otherwise, we’re 6th and 4 points off top after 14 games. A feat that seemed unlikely in itself when Holden was appointed (no disrespect to the man). 
Further, how nice does December look on paper? Some banana skins for sure (Millwall, Preston) but no real big hitters. It’s 8 games we can realistically win. A big month starts against QPR on Tuesday, one that could see us in the top 4 come January (I’m an optimist). COYR.

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If being a sustainable top half Championship team was Lansdown's aim, then we're doing great. 

That's not a bad aim either considering the rest of my lifetime as a City fan!

The problem is, we've been talking about Premier League so long now, so much.

It feels like it would take something quite special for us to achieve that.

'Special' could be some outrageously successful 'trading', a series of moments of good fortune, or - as stated at the top of the thread - ambitious financial investment in the coaching or playing staff (or both).

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The solution is simple - all those who argue for more investment in the squad can pay for it from their own pockets.  Including wages about £50 million would do, time to put your hands in your own pockets and spend your own money rather than someone else’s.

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10 hours ago, Robbored said:

City have enough quality players to feature well all season - If/ when Deano has a full squad to select from City will be a formidable outfit.

With the likes of Mawson, Baker, Wiemann, Sessegnon, Walsh, Williams would all  probably walk into the current team all missing thru injury shows what quality is available when all fully fit.

Walsh and William's on what evidence? Have not even touched a ball in the current tactics........ 

I think it rather optimistic to think they will walk into the current team 🤦‍♂️

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8 hours ago, GrahamC said:

No one is spending money, not even the ex Prem teams, the usual suspects like Cardiff are chucking around huge sums on wages (how’s that working out?) but to think we will go on some spending spree mid pandemic is delusional, even for OTIB.

 

The ex Prem teams have not had to spend the money. They have kept the majority of prem class players. Not surprisingly a 1/3 of the way into the season they are sat 1st, 2nd and 3rd. 

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1 hour ago, joshthomson said:

The ex Prem teams have not had to spend the money. They have kept the majority of prem class players. Not surprisingly a 1/3 of the way into the season they are sat 1st, 2nd and 3rd. 

Though you have to ask yourself if they are premier class players why did they find themselves in the Championship?

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19 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

I agree I think we need more to be a real promotion contender but disagree with your opinions on the squad and bringing in new players. 
 

First off, with the squad, I think we have solutions and possible solutions to our weaknesses. Walsh and Williams could really up our midfield quality when they return. Williams more of a sure thing and Walsh has the ability to be good. Add them to Bakinson and could be as strong a midfield 3 in the division with plenty of room to grow.
 

Then we have Baker, Kalas and Mawson missing. Any two of those 3 is a top half championship pairing. Vyner has come along very nicely and is solidifying himself as a starting champ CB. Dasilva is a good LB and personally think you would find it tough to find another RB in the division that can do what Hunt does. Top half RB imo especially at the minute. Fullback is so tough in this league so easy to look poor imo. 
 

Forward options I think maybe our weakest when the entire team is full strength. Martin, Wells and Fam are all solid players but imo more role players than key players. I think I’d like to see us move away from Fam and Martin some and go to a front 3 of Pato Wells and Semenyo. Think you get good mix of creativity, mobility and finishing ability in that and all clever enough to get hold of the ball and hold it up in their way. Enough work rate from them as well to be part of a good defensive performance. 
 

Now with bringing in new players, I think we are pushed to the limit anyway. I don’t think there is the scope to improve the squad the way you want in terms of incomings. I don’t think that will ever be our strength as long as we are in this division without being promoted and coming back down. It is why we need to nail recruiting. We have been too hit and miss imo. Also too many different ideas of who to recruit.

We need to make the most of every season. Doesn’t need to be playoff contenders. It can be an up and down season where our young players grow and I think that is where we are now. Semenyo, Walsh, Williams, Bakinson, Moore, Dasilva and Vyner. All quite young players and in most cases we are finding out if they can hack it with us or not. If we can bring these along we can prep better for future seasons. And who knows? Possibly a few grow even more during the season and we make that push. 

Sounds ok in principal if you are related to DH. However time is running out and a top six is expected with no excuses this season.

being promoted and coming back down again is the worse think that can happen to a club and it does bring experience it only brings tears and frustrations.

the push is now and i suspect you have not seen city play in top flight. If so you would know that feeling always remember the experience.

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20 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

What’s interesting here is that included in players good enough for top six are Vyner, Semenyo, Bakinson.

If you’d written this post at the start of the season, you wouldn’t have put any of those in.

As well as Tyreeq and Antoine have done, you’re basing their inclusion on single figure games at this level. Zak has more games but before this year, nobody would have had him top six.

I just don’t think you have enough evidence for the conclusion reached.

Almost as interesting as our top scorer of the last 2 seasons being in the "not good enough list" yet Palmer who can't get in Swanses's first team (or stay there for the duration of a game), much as he couldn't for us, is deemed worthy of being higher up the ladder than him. 

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We have 3 CB's , 3 CMF's a RWB and Weimann out injured. The club have no income from match days until possibly the end of the season. This does not look like the time to seen, spend ,spend. I think we might bring in a RB, even that is a maybe. If the Cb's get fit I would expect Vyner to rotate with Hunt, maybe Moore too.

Fully fit squad and I think it's top 6 potentially. 

Question, why would we want a winger when we don't play with wingers? COD is in the team in CMF, Eliasson was shipped out and let's not forget Paterson. While we are talking Paterson, he's currently playing MF and is our top scorer with 4 goals, and more than 2 thirds of the season to go.

We have players out of contract soon, several in fact , that is likely down to the situation of the game as a whole. They won't want to spend money on even more players when it's already a big squad and they're not 100% sure what division we will be in. Risky strategy IMO, but it does show how the club are thinking at the moment.

The top 3 have done well to keep players, though I'm not sure Norwich spent much when they got promoted. Between them (and there are a few undisclosed fees ), they have sold around 10 players for approaching £200m (£80m of that to Bournemouth), with Norwich spending around £8m being the only real outlay I can find. When you think they would have got £100m from last year (less COVID adjustment) and parachute this year, but yet they have not splashed out. Speaks volume IMO.

 

If we ever get any players fit, that alone would be a big boost and like a slew of new signings. Even better actually as they wouldn't need to bed in. My starting XI pre season is nothing like the team that played Saturday, we won't know if we are top 6 potential until we get near that side. 

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22 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Too much emphasis placed on result must equal performance, and that performance must equal free-flowing football.

More than one way to win a football match.

For too long we bemoan teams being well-drilled and taking points off of us.  Now, we show signs of being well-drilled and it’s gains criticism.

Watching a lot of games this season, quality attacking football is being replaced by pragmatism.  The injury issues are changing approaches.  Brentford on Friday we’re nowhere near the playing style of old.  Lots of teams passing the ball in front of the opposition.

I suspect many fans are saying they aren’t playing well, don’t deserve the results they’ve got, etc. This season’s Champ is a different one.

He’s right you know

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