Our style of play

[Davefevs]

27 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Agreed but unfortunately, like LJ, it seems Holden sees the size of Fammy so concludes he must be a target man. He always looks better facing the opposition but he has been pigeonholed.

Perhaps Lee and Dean are still a bit steeped in old style English thinking about the game?

The good thing for me is that Dean doesn’t see Fam as his first choice forward.  He appears to be a rotation option, and although he will get minutes and score the odd goal, he’s not his go-to like under LJ.

[chinapig]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The good thing for me is that Dean doesn’t see Fam as his first choice forward.  He appears to be a rotation option, and although he will get minutes and score the odd goal, he’s not his go-to like under LJ.

Indeed but given an equivalent amount of playing time I would back Fammy to score more than Martin. More so if he is allowed to run at defences rather than playing with his back to goal.

I see no reason why you couldn't play them together as they are very different players. But as I say Fammy has been pigeonholed so it's unlikely to happen.

[bpexile]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I think it’s had to change....due to injuries and because of risk of injuries, e.g. less pressing.  We actually made 466 passes yesterday at 85% accuracy, which is very good, but like Derby who made 600+ passes against us, very few were in the final third and when they were the ball was turned over.

Mawson’s injury has hit us hard.  He controlled the tempo of play, and passed the ball with a lovely weight to allow the receiver to move forward with the ball and make it difficult for our opponents to get into shape behind the ball.

I accept that sometimes you rotate possession by a defender knocking it into Nagy and getting it back again, but unless someone is working the angle off of it, it serves little purpose.

A combination of Weimann and Bakinson being out too.  The midfield of these two with Paterson looked effective if not necessarily a natural looking trio.  Weimann is not a tackler per se, but he is “aggressive” in everything he does.  Bakinson will get his foot in too, which lessens the impact on Paterson being a non-tackler.  Little surprise that opposition midfields feel less threatened by the current three of Nagy, O’Dowda and Paterson, who don’t have any aggression or physicality....and that not just tackling, but intent too.  We don’t commit our opponent like say Weimann would with a really aggressive run off the ball.  O’Dowda does make a few, but it looks less like it has a purpose than when Weimann does it.  I did think Nagy tried to be positive yesterday.  Pato was just poor.

Then we have to look at our striker partnerships. Semenyo and Diedhiou didn’t get on each other’s wavelength yesterday.  Martin, who had a disappointing game against Derby is key.  We need to get him on the pitch for as many minutes as we can.  Wells sparks off of him, so does Semenyo.  Even Diedhiou might too, perhaps if we use Martin as the final third link to get good possession high up.  We had none of that yesterday until he came on.  Similar against Watford too.  You can build territorial pressure with Martin on the pitch.

Finally, and only yesterday, I thought Hunt played too high when we were in possession.  He pushed up onto Richards, but it meant he couldn’t receive passes from Vyner, but it meant little space for Semenyo to roam into, and space in behind him for Olise and Ejaria to fill.  Vyner forced to go long, albeit sometimes he was too keen.

A few things to tweak.  A few things to learn from.  But ultimately, without Kalas too we had a second string spine out there yesterday and have done for several of the last half a dozen games.  I don’t expect Dean to have read the riot act, but a few will be left in no doubt that yesterday wasn’t good enough.

From what I read in match reports etc DF, Fammy doesn't seem to get on many other players wavelength, sad really as he comes across as a top "human". From my rugby playing days I've always thought that this was something that came naturally & not from being coached.

[Robbored]

39 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The good thing for me is that Dean doesn’t see Fam as his first choice forward.  He appears to be a rotation option, and although he will get minutes and score the odd goal, he’s not his go-to like under LJ.

LJ saw Fam as two important players in one. As a striker and as a defender and that’s why he was first choice under Junior.

As you say, Deano prefers to rotate the squad particularly with the so many games in a short period 

[Davefevs]

33 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Indeed but given an equivalent amount of playing time I would back Fammy to score more than Martin.

possibly, but you possibly end up with a one man threat in attack, whereas with Martin you get others that benefit.  Diedhiou has totalled 8 assists in his time here.  I know it’s not all about assists.

More so if he is allowed to run at defences rather than playing with his back to goal.

That is the biggest issue.  It’s too early to tell how Holden will play him, but he just isn’t a target man / back to goal striker.

I see no reason why you couldn't play them together as they are very different players. But as I say Fammy has been pigeonholed so it's unlikely to happen.

That is something I wouldn’t mind seeing.

6 minutes ago, bpexile said:

From what I read in match reports etc DF, Fammy doesn't seem to get on many other players wavelength, sad really as he comes across as a top "human". From my rugby playing days I've always thought that this was something that came naturally & not from being coached.

I don’t think he has great football intelligence.  He’s reactive rather than proactive.  Just look at Wells goal yesterday.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Robbored said:

LJ saw Fam as two important players in one. As a striker and as a defender and that’s why he was first choice under Junior.

As you say, Deano prefers to rotate the squad particularly with the so many games in a short period 

I should’ve written he sees Fam more as back-up when he needs to rest Martin.  He doesn’t look like he’s on equal playing rights with Martin and I’m glad about that.  I see him as inferior to Martin both individually and within the team structure.

[Robbored]

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I should’ve written he sees Fam more as back-up when he needs to rest Martin.  He doesn’t look like he’s on equal playing rights with Martin and I’m glad about that.  I see him as inferior to Martin both individually and within the team structure.

I’m not sure about that Dave. To me, in Deano’s eyes it’s about managing the squad, particularly the forwards carefully by rotating whenever possible and trying to keep as many players as involved as possible.

Obviously injuries in midfield and defence have inhibited his options in those areas but not so up top with four players for two places.

I daresay that if Deano was asked who his first choice strikers are he’d sit on the fence......

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, markcarter said:

Number 2 is poundshop Middlesbrough, which we have been employing of late and is honestly terrible to watch. It obviously gets you quite a lot of 1-0 wins that you don’t really deserve and some 0-0 draws.  But if we wanted that surely we would have employed Warnock or Pulis .  Instead we employed Holden who told us, and regularly asserts, “We go out to win every game”.  Whenever we play Middlesbrough, I always say to the person next to me at the end of the match “I wouldn’t want to watch that every week”.

...and you can do that in many ways.  If you haven’t got the players to do that with fast-flowing football due to injuries, COVID etc....do you just accept that or try to do something that will get you the win.

We are running on bare bones in the main and Holden is trying to get through these games as well as possible.

What style of football is Warnock employing at Boro this season by the way?  I’d suggest the old dog has some new tricks.

I didn’t enjoy Saturday’s performance either, I didn’t enjoy Huddersfield for an hour, but I get why we’ve changed.

Hopefully we will see Kalas back, that will help...he’s our best “available” defender.

Hopefully Bakinson too, I think that will help too...I think he gives us a bit of physicality in the midfield.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I’m not sure about that Dave. To me, in Deano’s eyes it’s about managing the squad, particularly the forwards carefully by rotating whenever possible and trying to keep as many players as involved as possible.

Obviously injuries in midfield and defence have inhibited his options in those areas but not so up top with four players for two places.

I daresay that if Deano was asked who his first choice strikers are he’d sit on the fence......

Since Martin joined and got his first start (after impressing as sub v Cov) he is the first choice striker over Fam.  Fam only really plays to rest Martin.  I don’t think you’d find many on here who think it’s an equal relationship on who gets minutes.

Of course Dean won’t say it....it’s called man-management.

Look at the starts (red) versus subs (yellow):

Martin 11+5

Diedhiou 6+8 (inc two starts before Martin was really fit)

Semenyo 8+9

Wells 11+4

If course he’s managing the squad....but he knows who his go-to forward is out of Fam and Martin and it ain’t Fam.

[Robbored]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Since Martin joined and got his first start (after impressing as sub v Cov) he is the first choice striker over Fam.  Fam only really plays to rest Martin.  I don’t think you’d find many on here who think it’s an equal relationship on who gets minutes.

Of course Dean won’t say it....it’s called man-management.

Look at the starts (red) versus subs (yellow):

Martin 11+5

Diedhiou 6+8 (inc two starts before Martin was really fit)

Semenyo 8+9

Wells 11+4

If course he’s managing the squad....but he knows who his go-to forward is out of Fam and Martin and it ain’t Fam.

I can’t argue with those stats Dave.

[Davefevs]

29 minutes ago, markcarter said:

If “we go out to win every game” can be construed as covering a strategy of defending for 90 minutes and hoping we finish the one opportunity we get, then it would be an entirely fatuous thing to say as it would effectively cover the full gamut of tactics, making it an entirely meaningless, if not redundant phrase.

It is clearly intended to mean that we will go out on the front foot and with positive intent and impose our game on the opposition (something Johnson and his assistant Holden are both prone to say).  On Saturday, we did not.  Against Derby we did not.  Against Watford, we did not in the first half but did so in the second.

So Holden is either being fatuous, or he is being dishonest.  Which is it?

We haven’t gone out to defend for 90 minutes in any game though have we?

He did say about front foot and imposing our game on them, but he also said we would have to be pragmatic too.  But some don’t want to hear that.

27 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I can’t argue with those stats Dave.

But you are entitled to your opinion

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, JonDolman said:

I hope one day Holden gives 4231 a go.

Imagine Nagy - Bakinson as a pair. And Brunt would probably fit into that system better on the left of the double pivot, if needed.

Who’s the 3 and the 1? (Assume none of the long term are available).....argh you’ve dragged me in to a formation discussion, you bugger.

Id like to see a more 4132 or 4312 type.

[Robbored]

8 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I hope one day Holden gives 4231 a go.

Imagine Nagy - Bakinson as a pair. And Brunt would probably fit into that system better on the left of the double pivot, if needed.

You’ll see pretty much any formation during a game. Shape changes constantly depending on who is possession and where the ball is.

At Reading City were defending and a back four was visible with two midfielders in front . A 4-2-1-3...The shape changed almost immediately when the ball was intercepted and City got the front foot and became a 3-4-3. 

Point being that shape/formations evolve reactionary during any game and people going on about formations are obviously not watching the game.property.

Its all about fluidity and that is something that is worked on at Failand.

[Robbored]

4 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Just a general way of describing a system. Rowe - Moore - Vyner looked pretty much like a back 3 most of the time. And the wing backs looked like wing backs. Nagy was sitting centrally and deeper than Paterson and O'Dowda. 352 I'd call it.

Yep..........but throughout the game the shape/formation adapted to the game situation. For example, did Nagy stay stay centrally all game? 

No he didn’t.......he moved/adapted to the state of play as did the wings backs. Fluidity is the name of the game these days.

[joshthomson]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

What about as the left-forward?  Ignore his defensive skills for the mo, he likes to drift left and we’ve seen a few goals where he squares up defenders around the box to get shots away.  Would be good for diags too.  Of course tracking back his full-back might be a huge no-no, but offensively I could see benefits.

Blackburn are benefitting from playing Brereton as a left forward this season.

Similar to an Ameobi role for Forest. 

[Davefevs]

Ok, here we go.  What service did the front two get on Saturday?  Was that their lack of making themselves available or lack of passes into them?

Diedhiou - 7 balls received 

 

Semenyo - 9 balls received

Diedhiou - who tried to pass to him - a bit mixed but not many found their target or stuck!

 

Semenyo - who tried to pass to him - Hunt formed a link, but nothing much either...and we didn’t see him drift left side where he had success v Watford.

 

Then the midfield 3:

Nagy doing what you’d expect....but if you’re critical is it what we need?  In fairness I thought he tried to break the lines a couple of times, but it’s different to what Bakinson gives us.  We only saw Bakinson, Paterson and O’Dowda versus Bournemouth.  I’m not convinced by the blend.

 

O’Dowda and Paterson - we see link ups with each other, the WBs and CBs, but not the forwards.

 

Nothing that you can prove / disprove by numbers and pictures....but it tells the same story as we saw with our own eyes....we didn’t attack very well at all.

Heres an overall pass map (not from Wyscout so a few differences).

[1960maaan]

19 hours ago, steviestevieneville said:

Circumstances dictate unfortunately

Exactly this. While I agree with @Davefevs Mawson was a big hit, I think Kalas was a tipping point. It's like Holden has decided that we need damage limitation. It certainly looked like this in a couple of games. Try and stay in it and then make an effort to win it.

Earlier in the season we looked like we were happier on the ball and the movement was better, that leads to options for the man in possession and it's easier to hold it and make the right pass. Saturday we had slipped back to how we played last year, little movement which means few options, and the man in possession ends with few choices. Risky threaded pass, or the long punt to (usually) Fam or backpass.  I also think you can see the lack of options causing a dip in confidence, how many time do you see someone shaping to pass only to stop , take a 2nd look and go backwards. 

 

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Exactly this. While I agree with @Davefevs Mawson was a big hit, I think Kalas was a tipping point. It's like Holden has decided that we need damage limitation. It certainly looked like this in a couple of games. Try and stay in it and then make an effort to win it.

Earlier in the season we looked like we were happier on the ball and the movement was better, that leads to options for the man in possession and it's easier to hold it and make the right pass. Saturday we had slipped back to how we played last year, little movement which means few options, and the man in possession ends with few choices. Risky threaded pass, or the long punt to (usually) Fam or backpass.  I also think you can see the lack of options causing a dip in confidence, how many time do you see someone shaping to pass only to stop , take a 2nd look and go backwards. 

 

Agree....tweak to style when Mawson got injured....more fundamental change with Kalas out also (leading to change back to 352) and emphasis on being tough to get at.

[Clutton Caveman]

21 hours ago, steviestevieneville said:

Circumstances dictate unfortunately . We weren’t like that with Mawson & wiemann fit . Injuries have hit us hard and we’ve had to change the way we play. If we ever get to see williams in a city shirt , it will hopefully change us again . 

Quite surprised to read talk about missing Wiemann. Yes he runs a lot but his pass accuracy is poor and he loses his head in the final third when a quality pass is needed.

Once again a forward playing in midfield

[steviestevieneville]

5 hours ago, Clutton Caveman said:

Quite surprised to read talk about missing Wiemann. Yes he runs a lot but his pass accuracy is poor and he loses his head in the final third when a quality pass is needed.

Once again a forward playing in midfield

He brings a lot more to the team than you think 

[CliftonCliff]

Reading the criticism here, one feels some sympathy for Holden. He is having to manage the squad in just about the worst of all possible worlds. The long list of senior players who would almost certainly be in the match day group, and who are or have been unavailable for reasons of injury or illness, would present a challenge under any circumstances. On Saturday we had, in addition to the still young and inexperienced guys already playing regularly, two kids helping to fill the bench who would in more normal times probably be nowhere near the first team at this stage in their development. It serves to illustrate what Dave keeps pointing out, that we are right down to the bare bones of the playing resources.

But to have to manage that in the context of an unprecedented season, with games coming continuously at a rate of three every ten days as the new normal, is a total nightmare. Given that LJ was routinely castigated for "tinkering", DH faces an almost impossible dilemma. He is clearly trying to bring some continuity to team selection and tactics, but has at the same time to balance that against the need to protect players from fatigue, and therefore must rotate the squad to some degree, or risk further, avoidable injuries brought about by over-playing individuals. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. (I feel particularly sorry for Paterson in this scenario, who must be, and looks, knackered. He is arguably the most talented footballer at the club and the only one currently available with the skill set to play that creative role. He was flogged to death in that famous season when we beat Man U in the cup, for similar reasons and with similar consequences. Give the poor little bugger a break, for Christ's sake.)  

In the face of these constraints, Holden has sensibly opted to introduce a large element of pragmatism into the way we approach things - for now. People forget, it seems - or failed ever to notice in the first place - that our goals against record last season did not make good reading. With the squad stretched to breaking point, he has set out to start matches with the intention of staying in the game, establishing a solid shape, and laying a platform from which it may be possible to take the game to the opposition more as the match progresses. It is an astute way to manage a very tough set of circumstances and has brought about more good outcomes than bad. Before the defeat to Reading, it had yielded three consecutive clean sheets and a place within touching distance of the league leaders.

This seems to me a remarkable achievement under very difficult conditions and the bloke should be congratulated. The response from some on OTIB is to complain that it is dull to watch. I bloody despair.

[Mr Popodopolous]

We started off pretty well- agree with a lot of what @Davefevs said tbh, it's necessitated a change. I see bigger possibilities as and when key players return but if we have to tough it out for a while, building up again and getting results- maybe with performances edging up over time, I'd take it for a while.

I also question the balance in parts- for example I understand the attraction of Semenyo-Martin-Wells.

However in practice, that left side can be a bit vulnerable-not Wells fault, he's not a natural LF, so perhaps as part of that toughing it out it might be an idea to play Semenyo-ONE of Martin/Wells- pick based on form, fitness etc and another can always be on the bench, and just from a balance POV, Paterson wide left- that little bit more symmetry, thinking of if we go 4-3-3, more of a 4-3-2-1 really but can also slip into a 4-3-1-2 with Paterson as the 10 in phases but it gives us a better chance of numerical advantage in key areas which may give us a bit more control than Saturday. Rotate the CF in that as and when.

[Jerseybean]

On 29/11/2020 at 11:39, Jerseybean said:

Be interested to hear what others think about what is becoming clearer about our style of play.

I would somewhat simplistically summarise our style/approach as seeking to contain or nullify teams, being prepared to let the opposition have plenty of the ball and relying upon us converting from the limited goal scoring opportunities we create.

This style fundamentally depends on a well drilled/organised team structure and clinical finishing.

While we have generally been reasonably solid at the back (in part thanks to some superb displays from DB) the better teams have exposed us e.g. Reading yesterday and Norwich. In the defensive third we look ok passing around but rarely find a decisive ball to midfield or our forwards. Consequently too often we turn over possession and are quickly back to defending again.

Our forwards work hard but I don’t consider them to be creating enough scoring opportunities nor IMO are they clinical. Although they are too often not being served well.

Which brings me to the ongoing issues in midfield, which despite the plethora of players available, remains for me pivotal. We lack creativity, guile and balance which means things either breakdown quickly or we pass the ball around without hurting the opponents.

I appreciate we have lots of injuries and our league position is decent. However, sadly I don’t see our style leading to long term success, for a number reasons, including:

Better teams will beat us

We aren’t creating many scoring chances

We will tend to win by the odd goal (which although ok isn’t ideal)

We are relying too much on our defence

Ironically (given the options available) the key IMO is in midfield where the link up play needs to be much more energetic, creative and decisive.

The adage the table doesn’t lie is a truism, however, I believe it relates to the final table at the season’s end. There have been discussions on here about us being in a false position, I reckon Forest, Cardiff and Derby fans would certainly feel that we were very fortunate to win against them and on another day their possession and chances would have been enough for a point or three.

As per my opening line, interested in what others think about the style we are playing.

 

Feel that, three weeks after posting this and with the last three games in mind, this needs updating.

We certainly aren’t creating enough chances - three consecutive defeats without scoring and (other than a slight improvement in the second half against PNE) our attempts on target have been woeful

Not only will better teams beat us - the last three opponents were all in poor form and had been struggling before beating us

Our defence looks much less secure than it did

Not wanting to be alarmist but based on our last three performances we are increasingly looking like a side that will be in a relegation scrap.