Lee Johnson - Evolution of a Manager

[S25loyal]

It's pretty obvious that Robbored hatred of the Johnson stems from being caught out and then lying to Gary when in that infamous meeting of theirs, its borderline obsession and its very very sad.

I've said it before, and i'll it again, Robbored must lead a very boring post retirement life where he thoroughly enjoys winding people up on the internet. How he cannot see that himself is beyond comprehension.

Robbored hates Lee as Robbored hates his dad all due to Robbored being a keyboard warrior, who bottled it when face to face with Gary

[pongo88]

Initially I didn’t read the interview as I couldn’t face it. I then  read the comment and as they were so interesting I forced myself to read it. I wish I hadn’t as it is a perfect example how to write a few hundred words without saying anything meaningful. It  reminds me of something a pupil at school might write to impress the teacher. A lot of padding with a few examples thrown in to appear clever. Never mind the quality feel the width. 

[Silvio Dante]

40 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I only ever saw him play on tv, but he was part of a side that did well.  Neat and tidy at Champ level in that season from the little I saw.

As a manager he did a decent / good job, was backed well and ultimately fell short of what was expected of him.  Had he not been backed his achievements would get more praise.

I liked some of his traits, I disliked others.  I thought it was time to go.  I don’t think he’s quite as good a manager as he thinks, but he’s no mug either.

That’s probably a fair assessment. 
 

The thing with LJ the player was that he was just that - neat and tidy, but, irrespective of nepotism allegations he just fit into that 2008 side. We were neat, we were tidy, our top scorer had single figures but we nearly went up - and it’s an inconvenient truth that when LJ got injured in the run in our form tailed off. Not because he was a great player - he wasn’t - but because in that team, in that system, he fit better with Marv and Noble than Nick Carle who replaced him.

(Incidentally you’ll find a lot who rate Carle but neglect to mention that after we did a number on Palace in making a profit on him he was back in Oz on a free at 28).

I do think had LJ stayed fit we may have stayed the course - not due to him - but due to the universal truth that the best players don’t make the best team.

And for me one of the ironies of him as a manager, particularly towards the end, is that truth escaped him when trying to shoehorn Eliasson, KP etc in when they didn’t fit the system he tried to play.

You won’t find many dissenters that his time was up. Or that he can go full Brent. Or that he probably talks a better game than in practice. But he did a decent job, left us in a better position than found us and didn’t trade badly overall. The amount of negativity seems disproportionate in view of that.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

5 hours ago, steviestevieneville said:

I left that there for you on purpose . Just so you could get a tiny little bump in your trousers . 

You had me at "there".

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

1 hour ago, S25loyal said:

 

 

Robbored hates Lee as Robbored hates his dad all due to Robbored being a keyboard warrior, who bottled it when face to face with Gary

 

The Gary J moment is well chronicled on these pages.

@Robbored actually was pretty supportive of Lee. Without going through this thread, I'm surprised that anyone could say that he "hates " Lee Johnson.

In terms of his other keyboard activity- well... it's not as if he pretends to be anything other than a tail-puller. Surely there's a clue in his own strap-line of " Pantomime Villain"?

[Leveller]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

That’s probably a fair assessment. 
 

The thing with LJ the player was that he was just that - neat and tidy, but, irrespective of nepotism allegations he just fit into that 2008 side. We were neat, we were tidy, our top scorer had single figures but we nearly went up - and it’s an inconvenient truth that when LJ got injured in the run in our form tailed off. Not because he was a great player - he wasn’t - but because in that team, in that system, he fit better with Marv and Noble than Nick Carle who replaced him.

(Incidentally you’ll find a lot who rate Carle but neglect to mention that after we did a number on Palace in making a profit on him he was back in Oz on a free at 28).

I do think had LJ stayed fit we may have stayed the course - not due to him - but due to the universal truth that the best players don’t make the best team.

And for me one of the ironies of him as a manager, particularly towards the end, is that truth escaped him when trying to shoehorn Eliasson, KP etc in when they didn’t fit the system he tried to play.

You won’t find many dissenters that his time was up. Or that he can go full Brent. Or that he probably talks a better game than in practice. But he did a decent job, left us in a better position than found us and didn’t trade badly overall. The amount of negativity seems disproportionate in view of that.

Precisely. LJ got slated as a player and I used to sit among people who would scream abuse at him. But basically it felt like that was because he was not a flair player. He used to do what Pack would do more recently - drop deep and pick the ball up from the centre backs, and patiently start the build up without taking many risks. Occasionally he would try a Hollywood pass - and if that went wrong, he’d be abused for that too. The more I think about it, the more the Pack parallels stand out; except of course for the strength in the air!

[RedRoss]

Not sure if this has been posted (get rid if it has)

Interesting snippet regarding LJ and our club from Luke Steele

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76y1-1kwCTU

1:07:27 onwards roughly

[Mr X]

[Sheltons Army]

1 minute ago, Mr X said:

Learnt that look from the SAS you know

[deadredfred]

14 hours ago, Davefevs said:

It is interesting, but the fact that he has no idea how he can bring it into his management, suggests it was poorly thought through, with little idea of its objective.

Nail on head. 

To LJ the fact he’s having those conversations, going to A&E departments, flying drones and doing algebra on box entries is some sort of ego, self help and self affirmation that he’s being a management pioneer, the best people manager he can be through (in his mind at least) his unique approach.

But for what reason? What is the desired result? What specific improvement will it make? I don’t think he has the first idea.

[2015]

The guy is desperate and I am SO glad he is no longer involved at City. 

No one thinks LJ is as good a coach as he thinks he is. Strikes me a total narcissist.

[Kodjias Wrist]

12 minutes ago, deadredfred said:

Nail on head. 

To LJ the fact he’s having those conversations, going to A&E departments, flying drones and doing algebra on box entries is some sort of ego, self help and self affirmation that he’s being a management pioneer, the best people manager he can be through (in his mind at least) his unique approach.

But for what reason? What is the desired result? What specific improvement will it make? I don’t think he has the first idea.

I believe he said in his words the game is always evolving, why not be the first to evolve and get a jump on others. He also said A & E was to see how the staff who are in a very stressful and emotional environment handled their jobs even if they are not footballers. I think this shows enthusiasm but the way he spoke about himself was off-putting.

I think if anything he over complicated everything and his ego and arrogance after achieving little as a manager annoyed the players. Even Wilbs said that even though he was a good coach he was arrogant and gave the impression players don't take to him. 

[Lanterne Rouge]

23 hours ago, Leveller said:

Precisely. LJ got slated as a player and I used to sit among people who would scream abuse at him. But basically it felt like that was because he was not a flair player. He used to do what Pack would do more recently - drop deep and pick the ball up from the centre backs, and patiently start the build up without taking many risks. Occasionally he would try a Hollywood pass - and if that went wrong, he’d be abused for that too. The more I think about it, the more the Pack parallels stand out; except of course for the strength in the air!

One thing I always thought was that when he started and perhaps wasn`t having that good a game GJ didn`t want to sub him due to how the crowd would have (probably) reacted IMO. It did him no favours sometimes.

[RedM]

On 30/11/2020 at 15:45, tin said:

I'm so glad we're shot of this bullshitter. He's had his entire life handed to him on a plate, was at best an average footballer, and doesn't have a promotion, final or cup win on his CV.

If I was him, I'd be looking lower down the leagues and at getting serious achievements (league titles, promotions, even a clear style of play) under his belt rather than learning how to interrogate players etc. 

The higher up you go in football, the more you realise big players respect managers who've been there, done it and got the T-shirt. Not someone who played 90% of his career under his dad in the lower leagues. 

Harsh, but true and fair I think.

I quite liked The Johnson’s if I’m honest, but I also realise they made enough £££ to have a very comfortable life from Bristol City. What they gained from the club, especially in Lee’s case, certainly eclipsed what they delivered.

I wish them both well, but am equally relived that chapter of our history is over. Maybe if I am honest that’s why I had doubts over Holden’s appointment, it *could* have just been a continuation of much the same.

[bcfcnick]

Yes both likeable characters in their own way.   Both obviously hate losing to an extent that resulted at times with Lee an unhelpful tendency to  publicly name and shame players. Dean's more astute than that in his man management and his lack of ego is quite a contrast as well.   He'll hate losing but his response isn't to talk to  bomb disposal experts etc but to just to stay calm and move on.  I think by instinct he is a much better man manager than Lee and I doubt if he'll have those horrendous losing streaks.

 

There was a fascinating interview with both GJ and LJ (can't find the link) but GK came across as the more naturally self-deprecating.  Lee would make a great salesman but I think he's reached his limits as a football manager.   I would be quite happy if he proves me wrong.

[Red Skin]

I think to some extent LJ viewed the players as pawns and himself as some chess grandmaster.  He seemed to decide the system game to game to negate the opposition and slotted players into it. 

I get the impression DH trusts the players more and, as he has said (and was quoted in another post) he chooses a system to suit the players available and to hurt the opposition.   

[BigTone]

15 hours ago, RedM said:

Harsh, but true and fair I think.

I quite liked The Johnson’s if I’m honest, but I also realise they made enough £££ to have a very comfortable life from Bristol City. What they gained from the club, especially in Lee’s case, certainly eclipsed what they delivered.

I wish them both well, but am equally relived that chapter of our history is over. Maybe if I am honest that’s why I had doubts over Holden’s appointment, it *could* have just been a continuation of much the same.

But what about The Johnson cup ?? We reached the final every year since its inception under Lee !! That's some record.

[bcfcredandwhite]

Not a criticism of anyone but I find it amusing that a thread on an ex manager could still command in excess of 4 pages of replies - so I'll add to them!!!

I'm not saying it's wrong - it just makes me smile!

I was one of those who supported Lee as long as I possibly could - and overall I'm in the camp that looks upon our 4 years Championship status as being a positive thing - as opposed to yo-yoing between League 1 and the bottom of the Championship like we seem to have done for most of my 50+ years as a supporter.

It was right that he went when he did - he had run out of ideas, but really given the history of our club I think 4 years of constant and strong championship presence isn't that terrible.

Having said all this, even I, as one of his 'supporters', find his regurgitating of management training material unpalatable - so much so that I can't bring myself to read or watch it - it makes me cringe, but to me it doesn't make his entire tenure terrible - it just means he's terrible at talking to the press and giving cringeworthy interviews.

I'm in agreement that Dean Holden's press conferences are a breath of fresh air and I'm fully supporting him (as I did Lee before), but ultimately for me, Deano will be judged on where we end up at the close of the season (with consideration as to why), rather than how good and honest he is in front of the press cameras.

 

[BTRFTG]

WeeLee's management legacy will forever be difficult to evaluate. He brought many positive, refreshing and innovative aspects to the club. Unfortunately for both him and City,  he also appeared to bring a small man, over-arrogance as to his abilities. "I could have played in The Premier..." to players who did and have. Naughty step, indeed. On speed dial to Europe's top managers - maybe he neglected to port his mobile number when City took his phone back? Best way to identify someone who is not for listening is to listen to them tell you how much they listen. Built in his old man's likeness, tarnished with his old man's shortcomings.

I hope I'm right in my assessment that Holden (unlike the self-professed, mini maestro,) knows his limitations, surrounds himself with specialists to whom he's prepared to delegate,  trust and listen and actually manages rather than micro manages (no pun intended.) He's the boss, in charge, the fella with whom the buck stops, but is not the only one making each and every decision. He doesn't need to keep self-justifying what he does and has little fear of having to admit when things have gone wrong.

[Davefevs]

Bravo @BTRFTG great post

[exAtyeoMax]

8 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

WeeLee's management legacy will forever be difficult to evaluate. He brought many positive, refreshing and innovative aspects to the club. Unfortunately for both him and City,  he also appeared to bring a small man, over-arrogance as to his abilities. "I could have played in The Premier..." to players who did and have. Naughty step, indeed. On speed dial to Europe's top managers - maybe he neglected to port his mobile number when City took his phone back? Best way to identify someone who is not for listening is to listen to them tell you how much they listen. Built in his old man's likeness, tarnished with his old man's shortcomings.

I hope I'm right in my assessment that Holden (unlike the self-professed, mini maestro,) knows his limitations, surrounds himself with specialists to whom he's prepared to delegate,  trust and listen and actually manages rather than micro manages (no pun intended.) He's the boss, in charge, the fella with whom the buck stops, but is not the only one making each and every decision. He doesn't need to keep self-justifying what he does and has little fear of having to admit when things have gone wrong.

He reminds me of...

[Oh Louie louie]

The point robbo made about him being selected over noble and hartley annoyed me too.

He wasnt fit to lace the pairs boots as a player.

 

[City oz]

9 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

WeeLee's management legacy will forever be difficult to evaluate. He brought many positive, refreshing and innovative aspects to the club. Unfortunately for both him and City,  he also appeared to bring a small man, over-arrogance as to his abilities. "I could have played in The Premier..." to players who did and have. Naughty step, indeed. On speed dial to Europe's top managers - maybe he neglected to port his mobile number when City took his phone back? Best way to identify someone who is not for listening is to listen to them tell you how much they listen. Built in his old man's likeness, tarnished with his old man's shortcomings.

I hope I'm right in my assessment that Holden (unlike the self-professed, mini maestro,) knows his limitations, surrounds himself with specialists to whom he's prepared to delegate,  trust and listen and actually manages rather than micro manages (no pun intended.) He's the boss, in charge, the fella with whom the buck stops, but is not the only one making each and every decision. He doesn't need to keep self-justifying what he does and has little fear of having to admit when things have gone wrong.

Great post mate 

[bcfcnick]

 Lee was a useful part of an effective team which won a lot of matches.   Obviously not one of the eye-catching flair players we all like, but he played a useful role.   Nigel Clough was a classy player who has done reasonably well with clubs who have had limited resources.  He obviously thought LJ was decent enough as he signed him on loan for Derby.  

[ROKERITE]

On 01/12/2020 at 14:58, ashton_fan said:

I wouldn't be surprised if he puts in for the Sunderland job if he doesn't mind moving that far away and would have a decent chance of being appointed

He is being linked, to the near unanimous horror of Sunderland supporters.

[ashton_fan]

3 minutes ago, ROKERITE said:

He is being linked, to the near unanimous horror of Sunderland supporters.

I think he could do a decent job for them if given the chance, but they don't seem to appreciate managers from London (or owners) in the north-east so it would be challenging

[ROKERITE]

Just now, ashton_fan said:

I think he could do a decent job for them if given the chance, but they don't seem to appreciate managers from London (or owners) in the north-east so it would be challenging

 

He would be a shocking appointment, another kick in the teeth for Sunderland fans. It isn't that we don't appreciate owners from London it's just that we got a couple of shysters from Oxford. There are a couple of Essex brothers that I and many others would be delighted to see unveiled as our new management team. I've followed Johnson's career. I know how terrible he was for you and the massive relief most of your support felt when he was finally fired.

We could look forward to setting a new record for number of consecutive losses of course.

[Sheltons Army]

1 minute ago, ROKERITE said:

 

He would be a shocking appointment, another kick in the teeth for Sunderland fans. It isn't that we don't appreciate owners from London it's just that we got a couple of shysters from Oxford. There are a couple of Essex brothers that I and many others would be delighted to see unveiled as our new management team. I've followed Johnson's career. I know how terrible he was for you and the massive relief most of your support felt when he was finally fired.

We could look forward to setting a new record for number of consecutive losses of course.

If your owners are impressed with powerpoints , ego and bluff mind , there’s a real danger he could land the job

 

Mind you , he’d get lynched by the Rokerites if he spouted the bull he spouted here at times 

 

[steveybadger]

4 minutes ago, ROKERITE said:

 

He would be a shocking appointment, another kick in the teeth for Sunderland fans. It isn't that we don't appreciate owners from London it's just that we got a couple of shysters from Oxford. There are a couple of Essex brothers that I and many others would be delighted to see unveiled as our new management team. I've followed Johnson's career. I know how terrible he was for you and the massive relief most of your support felt when he was finally fired.

We could look forward to setting a new record for number of consecutive losses of course.

He wasn’t ‘terrible’ for us. As others have said he had pros and cons but at worst he stabilised us in this division.

[BTRFTG]

2 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said:

He reminds me of...

....stupid boy......