Anton Ferdinand football racism & me

[daored]

Really interesting programme, such a shame as a country we still have bigots in our world. 
 

Some of the abuse he’s received over the years is disgusting

[RED LAND MAN]

Sad to say but if you go on to Twitter at the moment it’s not hard to find the terry apologists, depressing.

[E.G.Red]

Really affected his career. Listening to Anton on BBC Breakfast this morning about how he fell out of love with football.  Not a good look for either the FA or PFA.

[Tipps69]

And to think JT was supposedly in the running for our job this summer & he’s currently favourite for the Derby job as well!

Hopefully he’ll struggle to find another job!

[Pezo]

My experience of Anton Ferdinand was seeing him in a bar in Newcastle giving it the big I am/do you know who I am. He was being a *****. 

Pales in comparison to how he has been treated by others though - they are obnoxious and it's a shame we have to talk about them. 

[LondonBristolian]

3 minutes ago, Pezo said:

My experience of Anton Ferdinand was seeing him in a bar in Newcastle giving it the big I am/do you know who I am. He was being a *****. 

Pales in comparison to how he has been treated by others though - they are obnoxious and it's a shame we have to talk about them. 

This is it exactly. Anton Ferdinand could be a terrible human being and racist abuse would still be utterly despicable and unacceptable. The character of the person suffering racist abuse makes no difference to how unjustified and unacceptable that abuse is. 

[Prinny]

Racism is wrong, the disgusting targeting of his mother sounds horrendous.

27 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

And to think JT was supposedly in the running for our job this summer & he’s currently favourite for the Derby job as well!

Hopefully he’ll struggle to find another job!

I don't accept FA charges as a standard to judge someone. After all Fam spat at someone right....? You can't support a system which never forgives someone either, and people who have been convicted (Terry wasn't) still deserve the right to work again.

11 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

This is it exactly. Anton Ferdinand could be a terrible human being and racist abuse would still be utterly despicable and unacceptable. The character of the person suffering racist abuse makes no difference to how unjustified and unacceptable that abuse is. 

Just because Terry comes across as a scumbag, you have to apply the results of the actual law, and the criminal charges were dismissed.

You can't just ignore the truth because your personal feelings towards someone, either way.

[Tipps69]

31 minutes ago, Prinny said:

Racism is wrong, the disgusting targeting of his mother sounds horrendous.

I don't accept FA charges as a standard to judge someone. After all Fam spat at someone right....? You can't support a system which never forgives someone either, and people who have been convicted (Terry wasn't) still deserve the right to work again.

Just because Terry comes across as a scumbag, you have to apply the results of the actual law, and the criminal charges were dismissed.

You can't just ignore the truth because your personal feelings towards someone, either way.

How many other people have got away with ‘a lack of evidence’, as far as the legal system is concerned but they’ve clearly been guilty in the eyes of everyone else?
If I have an argument with my neighbour & abuse them but there’s no legal evidence (my word against their word) then I get away with it despite my actions! That doesn’t mean I didn’t do it.

Numerous people have come out & said that Terry did it since the incident but because they were team mates or mates, they basically kept their gob shut! And what reasons would Anton Ferdinand have to make such allegations?

[Prinny]

4 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

How many other people have got away with ‘a lack of evidence’, as far as the legal system is concerned but they’ve clearly been guilty in the eyes of everyone else?

Yes the better way to have a legal system is innocent until proven guilty instead of guilty until proven innocent. I'm not trying to make out there aren't miscarriages of justice or anything but the concept behind the system is sound.

If I have an argument with my neighbour & abuse them but there’s no legal evidence (my word against their word) then I get away with it despite my actions! That doesn’t mean I didn’t do it.

Yes that's obvious. You do actually want evidence to prove crimes. What if they accused you and you didn't do anything? You'd happily accept the punishment of a guilty verdict and never being allowed to work again right?

Numerous people have come out & said that Terry did it since the incident but because they were team mates or mates, they basically kept their gob shut! And what reasons would Anton Ferdinand have to make such allegations?

What reason does anyone have any reason to make false accusations? They do happen, so that's not really an argument. He didn't make an accusation, he said what he heard, and John Terry said what he did and why, Ashley Cole backed him up.

John Terry said the words, that's openly admitted, but the context matters. It's not right, but there's a difference between saying something something offensive and directing it at someone.

If you Tipps69, are going to hold something against John Terry, that can't be proven, and you have no personal knowledge of the situation, isn't that a little bit odd?

I don't know if he did it or not, I do know I don't want him to be unemployed forever, EVEN if he had done it. Why the need for the vitriol towards someone you don't know, about something you don't know happened?

[poland_exile]

1 hour ago, Pezo said:

My experience of Anton Ferdinand was seeing him in a bar in Newcastle giving it the big I am/do you know who I am. He was being a *****. 

Pales in comparison to how he has been treated by others though - they are obnoxious and it's a shame we have to talk about them. 

Not heard many nice words said about Anton and he does strike me as typical of that generation of footballers that got caught in the celebrity culture of it all. Of course that is not to excuse the abuse he received. 

Diverting mildly from the topic, I saw Ian Wright was recently in the press publicly forgiving some moron that was giving him stick (because Wright underperformed on Fifa or something insane!). Was a reminder of what a gentleman and genuine role model he is - the kind that's in such short supply now.  

[Redwhitepurple]

Yaaawwwwwnnnnnn

[LondonBristolian]

4 hours ago, Prinny said:

Just because Terry comes across as a scumbag, you have to apply the results of the actual law, and the criminal charges were dismissed.

You can't just ignore the truth because your personal feelings towards someone, either way.

This is factually true but not really relevant to anything I posted. Not really sure why you quoted me in writing it.

[Prinny]

2 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

This is factually true but not really relevant to anything I posted. Not really sure why you quoted me in writing it.

I think your point about how just because EVEN IF Anton doesn't come across as a great person it doesn't mean any abuse towards him is justified is good. And I think it applies to Terry too and wishing ill things on him (like struggling to get a job). That's why it's linked and relevant to me. Hope that helps clear it up for you.

[054123]

10 hours ago, daored said:

Really interesting programme, such a shame as a country we still have bigots in our world. 
 

Some of the abuse he’s received over the years is disgusting

You will always have bigots. It’s a human trait that sadly exists in all humanity, irrespective of country.

If your goal is to ‘end racism’ then you’re channeling your efforts to a futile cause.

What you need to ensure (if you care about the subject that is) is that the country you reside in takes it seriously and has robust laws in place that are executed and followed fairly and properly. That’s about as good as it gets.

The education piece is a far longer burn, that can ultimately change an ethos but can never eradicate the problem. 

The UK does not suffer ‘systemic racism’ (a suddenly popular term, that most of the people who use it, don’t even understand nor could they point to a example of it) and out of the 200 or so recognized sovereign states, the UK and the majority of its 70m population, tries as hard as it does in all of these aspects and has made the massive strides it has. 

Not perfect, and there is still some practical work to be done, but I don’t see many others doing it better.

 

[Northern Red]

5 hours ago, Redwhitepurple said:

Yaaawwwwwnnnnnn

Yes, can't have those uppity black people telling their side of the story can we?

You disgraceful racist *****.

[Tipps69]

8 hours ago, Prinny said:

John Terry said the words, that's openly admitted, but the context matters. It's not right, but there's a difference between saying something something offensive and directing it at someone.

If you Tipps69, are going to hold something against John Terry, that can't be proven, and you have no personal knowledge of the situation, isn't that a little bit odd?

I don't know if he did it or not, I do know I don't want him to be unemployed forever, EVEN if he had done it. Why the need for the vitriol towards someone you don't know, about something you don't know happened?

Personally it’s nothing to do with me & I couldn’t give two hoots but given the evidence I’d be surprised if any professional club would take him on under the circumstances, similarly I’d be surprised if any English club gave Luiz Suarez a managerial role after what happened with him & especially in these times.

Neil Warnock openly admitted to Anton Ferdinand that he’s been guilty of saying something he shouldn’t of & I guess a lot of people over a certain age have been. You only have to look at tv from the 1980’s to see how things have changed, In sickness & in health with Alf Garnett, Jim Davidson, Les Dawson etc, it was the norm to make jokes about ethnicity & we have made great strides in moving forwards from those times but things would of been said by youngsters who watched those programs & then went into school the next day but the difference is the context of how these things were used! But it doesn’t make it right!

The fact that Ferdinand can question the evidence & the way things played out & still not be happy with how things went down suggest to me that Terry’s view of events are fabricated to save himself (which isn’t surprising) & the fact that Rio has nothing to do with Terry now would also suggest that there is more to this than how Terry describes things.

For there to of been a legal prosecution the judge would of required there to be clear evidence of how the words Terry used were used, in what context, in the context that Terry claims he used them you’d have to say he’s not guilty but the FA only needed the fact that he used those words as his proof of guilt because their punishment was through law, it was through their rules. Similar to calling someone a defamatory name probably wouldn’t mean you end up in court if you did it on the street but if you said it to the referee you’d be up before the FA.

Other players that were involved in that game have mentioned the incident & what was expected of them in the aftermath, if you are not guilty then why is there a need to make sure other people’s stories are straight?

Terry has come out & apologised for using the words he did but in all that time & throughout everything he’s never contacted Ferdinand to apologise or to try & explain things from his perspective, why? Terry has know the Ferdinand’s for years & was very good mates with his older brother, why wouldn’t you try to clear your name if you’d made an accidental mistake?

I’m not against Terry being employed, I’m against him being employed at the club I support & I’d be surprised if many clubs appointed him on the back of what’s happened, maybe I wouldn’t be so surprised if Derby employed him though!?!

 

[Prinny]

10 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

Terry has come out & apologised for using the words he did but in all that time & throughout everything he’s never contacted Ferdinand to apologise or to try & explain things from his perspective, why? Terry has know the Ferdinand’s for years & was very good mates with his older brother, why wouldn’t you try to clear your name if you’d made an accidental mistake?

Your premise is wrong. He tried at the time. Does he just have to say "how high?" when Ferdinand says jump? And for how long does he have to do this?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55074804

Ferdinand also tried to contact Terry for the film - they have not spoken since that day at Loftus Road, though Terry tried to reach out to Ferdinand in the aftermath. Terry did not reply to Ferdinand's message, but his representatives did respond to the production team, saying he has moved on with his life and does not want to reopen a case on television that was decided in court.

What can Terry do to PROVE he didn't do something? He said the words, we know that, he made it clear WHY he says the words at the time. And you can choose to believe him or not, you don't and I have no idea and there isn't enough evidence to prove otherwise. What if he's telling the truth, and comes on camera and say, I said it at the time, I was telling the truth, that's why I said what I said. Would you believe him? Caus he's already done that, and you don't. So how could he change your mind?

And he's been found not guilty in a court, there's nothing legally to answer for. And the FA charge is correct, he did use the language which he already admitted.

"The panel stated at that time (Suarez case vs Evra) that simply using racist language was enough to constitute a breach of FA rules." https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/19723020

"Terry's defence was he was repeating language he thought Ferdinand had used - and was not using it as an insult."

18 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

I’m not against Terry being employed, I’m against him being employed at the club I support & I’d be surprised if many clubs appointed him on the back of what’s happened, maybe I wouldn’t be so surprised if Derby employed him though!?!

10 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

Hopefully he’ll struggle to find another job!

Ok, you don't want him not to find a job, you just want him to STRUGGLE to find a job. right... nothing vindictive there at all.

So my question is, what can Terry do to change your mind IF he's telling the truth? Why are you so unwilling to believe what he said happened?

[LondonBristolian]

3 hours ago, Prinny said:

I think your point about how just because EVEN IF Anton doesn't come across as a great person it doesn't mean any abuse towards him is justified is good. And I think it applies to Terry too and wishing ill things on him (like struggling to get a job). That's why it's linked and relevant to me. Hope that helps clear it up for you.

Ok. So you were making a completely different point barely even tangentially related to what I said. Thanks for clarifying.

[Mad Cyril]

The issue really isn't about John Terry. His was just an example.

Singling him out as a fall guy misses the point about how many people are happy for a panto villain to take the heat for their own mistakes or subliminal prejudices.

 

[Prinny]

2 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Ok. So you were making a completely different point barely even tangentially related to what I said. Thanks for clarifying.

I'm using what I HOPE to be the point behind your comment (as in, the character of the person shouldn't excuse poor behaviour to them) to make that point, hence the quote.

Was that not your intent of the statement?

11 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

This is it exactly. Anton Ferdinand could be a terrible human being and racist abuse would still be utterly despicable and unacceptable. The character of the person suffering racist abuse makes no difference to how unjustified and unacceptable that abuse is. 

Did i misunderstand? If so, feel free to correct me.

[bengalcub]

Terry's account doesnt make any sense , and when he released his statement after the game he did not realize he had been caught so made no reference to what he had said , their is no way he can look at anton in the face and point blank lie to him , hes a coward and for me he shouldnt be involved in the proffesional game as a result.

[E.G.Red]

On TALKSPORT now