We don’t score enough goals because..

[Better Red]

Not complicated to answer this season. 

1. Wells does not play in the centre.    
2. Pato does not play.                                 
3. Bakinson does not play.                        
4. Williams or Walsh not fit                        
5. Seymeno and COD both in the team           
6 D’Silva and Hunt not in team.               
7. Brunt is in the team                               
8. We don’t have striker with pace to bring on for Wells.                                      

So aside from getting the Walsh and Williams fit and getting a Striker with pace in January it’s just about Deano making some hard decisions and picking the best team and not tinkering like the last bloke we had. He said he would not do that and maybe with Covid and injuries he has had to some of that. 
 

Best 11.

Bentley, DSilva,Hunt,Vyner,Kalas, Bakinson, Pato Seymenyo or COD, Williams or Walsh, Nagy And Wells. 

Bench

Famy, Martin, COD or Seymeno, Walsh or Williams, Mariappa, Rowe, Baker and Mawson, Sessegnon when fit and new striker in Jan.                                 

Not only does the first team look better we also have a bench that looks like it can change games.

Before you ask I have left Brunt, T’Moore and HNM out as not good enough to improve the bench above. 

If we want a better team after that then we will have to go out and buy in the Jan or Summer window.

We will have a different opinions on the team but I don’t think that many on here will argue with above. Maybe play 2 upfront and go one lighter in mid field. 3-5-2 could be mentioned but just do t see how that helps us score more goals as we always look light in midfield.

Yesterday we looked light in midfield. We lack creativity, we don’t score enough goals and we simply do not have enough shots on target.  If we are honest the football has been pretty poor for the last 6 games. It’s been a difficult watch at times and we don’t really look like a team who carries a goal threat. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

             
 

[Super]

We dont create much.

[weepywall]

3 minutes ago, Super said:

We dont create much.

Exactly this, its not rocket science, our creativity is virtually zero.

[Fordy62]

Not much has changed under Holden, which isn’t a great surprise. Don’t get me wrong, I think he’s done an adequate job in terms of results, but will much change when you appoint a number two when the bulk of their experience is under the bloke who’s just been sacked?

We had a chance with Cook, we didn’t take it. 

[GrahamC]

Think the biggest 2 factors for me are since Weimann & Paterson both got injured we pretty much have zero goal threat from midfield, Nagy & Bakinson have scored 1 each but I just don’t see them as regular contributors.

Then playing Wells wide takes away about 80% of our forward goal threat, look at the other 2 up front yesterday, Martin has 1 in 14, Semenyo none in the league.

It may be time for Semenyo to have a rest, so going back to 3/5/2 with Wells central alongside Famara or Martin is definitely worth a try.

[chinapig]

Because we don't play the aggressive attacking football we were told we would?

[Harry]

15 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Not much has changed under Holden, which isn’t a great surprise. Don’t get me wrong, I think he’s done an adequate job in terms of results, but will much change when you appoint a number two when the bulk of their experience is under the bloke who’s just been sacked?

We had a chance with Cook, we didn’t take it. 

I’d say we’ve actually regressed under Holden. 
I mentioned this in the matchday thread yesterday, but I looked last week (pre-QPR) at the comparison to last season. 
After 14 games we had the same points. However, we were worse on a number of metrics. Less Draws, More Losses, Less Goals Scored. 
I then looked at DH’s last 5 games vs LJ’s last 5 games. Less possession (by a distance), less goals scored, less shots, less shots on target, less corners. 
The key metrics that could be construed as giving “entertaining football” are all lower under Holden (from what was already a low base under LJ).
 

We are conceding less goals, which is great. However, it’s to the detriment of any semblance of an attacking strategy whatsoever. We are not a good team in possession. We don’t create chances. We don’t have shots at goal. Whilst the last 18 months or so under LJ were rather dull, I think Dean has taken this to another level. 
Hopefully he can turn it around, but I’ve not seen much yet to convince me that we are ‘on the cusp’ of any great change. 

[foghornred]

Well are not brave enough to have a shot and have to pass to another player,that seems to be the problem.

[chinapig]

11 minutes ago, Harry said:

I’d say we’ve actually regressed under Holden. 
I mentioned this in the matchday thread yesterday, but I looked last week (pre-QPR) at the comparison to last season. 
After 14 games we had the same points. However, we were worse on a number of metrics. Less Draws, More Losses, Less Goals Scored. 
I then looked at DH’s last 5 games vs LJ’s last 5 games. Less possession (by a distance), less goals scored, less shots, less shots on target, less corners. 
The key metrics that could be construed as giving “entertaining football” are all lower under Holden (from what was already a low base under LJ).
 

We are conceding less goals, which is great. However, it’s to the detriment of any semblance of an attacking strategy whatsoever. We are not a good team in possession. We don’t create chances. We don’t have shots at goal. Whilst the last 18 months or so under LJ were rather dull, I think Dean has taken this to another level. 
Hopefully he can turn it around, but I’ve not seen much yet to convince me that we are ‘on the cusp’ of any great change. 

You mean he is not "a breath of fresh air" after all?

[Banjo Island]

No crosses into box from the byline no threat from corners zero threat from feekicks no long range shots all in all watching city play its very diffulcult to understand what they do all week at failand

[Sheltons Army]

38 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Not much has changed under Holden, which isn’t a great surprise. Don’t get me wrong, I think he’s done an adequate job in terms of results, but will much change when you appoint a number two when the bulk of their experience is under the bloke who’s just been sacked?

We had a chance with Cook, we didn’t take it. 

Don’t think Cook , Hughton or anyone else would have done much better Fordy

He has had little opportunity to change or reshape the squad so is working in large terms with the same squad he ‘inherited’ (I would suggest he had a very limited say in recruitment) , add the injuries and I’m not sure what was expected.

We’ve been lucky he’s been able to get contributions and shown confidence in , some inexperienced players .

 

Far from perfect and the odd error but it’s the same players that we watched in performances under LJ

More and more I am thinking ......

The same set of players ..... a ‘decent set of lads’ , with some decent ability , and decent attitude overall...

But that’s what they are , virtually across the board , ‘not bad’ / ‘pretty decent’ ..... Lots of players who will produce 6/7 performances most weeks , rare 3s or 4’s, but very few 9s 

A very samey squad in terms of levels , lacking real star quality , deep in numbers of similar quality but lacking enough standouts to take us to the ‘next level’ (IMHO)

Holden has had to inherit a squad that is LJ & MAs legacy.........Back to recruitment...

Maybe we have to swallow the fact that this is not a squad that is duff , but nor is it ‘right’ , it’s ‘ok’ / decentish and that limits the options , performance level and results for any coach / manager

Looking for positives Fordy - How many of the same players have performed better under DH than they did under LJ

A fair few I’d suggest

Results have been decent , Performances haven't been ‘wonderful’....but I’d pose the question ... is this squad really capable of swashbuckling attacking football whilst achieving results ?.........

LJ was given four years , DH is making errors here and there but also doing something’s very right

....Is he the messiah ?, No , but I think he deserves the chance (Not 4 years !!!) to reshape the squad before he can be fairly judged

Another squad reshape......l.That may be a tough pill to swallow for those desperate to see us promoted.....but it’s probably the truth

[chinapig]

6 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Results have been decent , Performances haven't been ‘wonderful’....but I’d pose the question ... is this squad really capable of swashbuckling attacking football whilst achieving results ?.........

 

I don't think it is but then again he said we would play aggressive attacking football so he seems to think otherwise.

[mozo]

I think Wells is the only player we have with killer instinct, so it would make sense to create a system that gets him in the box.

O'Dowda and Semenyo have been standout players in recent games, but they don't have the killer instinct when they get into attacking positions.

Remember Leroy Lita and how single minded ge was about scoring goals? Every time he saw an opening he'd take the shot on and hit it with intent. 

If only we could awaken the predator in them.

Also, our shooting from distance is really poor. Wells hits them over the bar, O'Dowda hits them into the ground and Semenyo passes them.

So the solution...I guess we need Wells back in a 2 with Martin, or leading the line as a 1, to enable him to get in the box more.

We need Semenyo and O'Dowda to focus in training on scoring goals.

And finally we need to create better chances, which like I said in another thread, comes from exposing the wide defenders and playing balls across goal.

[Sheltons Army]

3 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I don't think it is but then again he said we would play aggressive attacking football so he seems to think otherwise.

I think he said we would be ‘looking to win games’ and ‘get on the front foot’ as opposed to ‘attacking’ but your overall point is a fair one

I think we miss Weimann more than many realise , and I bet DH does too

[Red Army 75]

Going forward we have no pace . Someone to turn and run at them . Everything is played in front of the opposing defence. Making it easy for them to sit in and read it .   

[Harry]

21 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Don’t think Cook , Hughton or anyone else would have done much better Fordy

He has had little opportunity to change or reshape the squad so is working in large terms with the same squad he ‘inherited’ (I would suggest he had a very limited say in recruitment) , add the injuries and I’m not sure what was expected.

We’ve been lucky he’s been able to get contributions and shown confidence in , some inexperienced players .

 

Far from perfect and the odd error but it’s the same players that we watched in performances under LJ

More and more I am thinking ......

The same set of players ..... a ‘decent set of lads’ , with some decent ability , and decent attitude overall...

But that’s what they are , virtually across the board , ‘not bad’ / ‘pretty decent’ ..... Lots of players who will produce 6/7 performances most weeks , rare 3s or 4’s, but very few 9s 

A very samey squad in terms of levels , lacking real star quality , deep in numbers of similar quality but lacking enough standouts to take us to the ‘next level’ (IMHO)

Holden has had to inherit a squad that is LJ & MAs legacy.........Back to recruitment...

Maybe we have to swallow the fact that this is not a squad that is duff , but nor is it ‘right’ , it’s ‘ok’ / decentish and that limits the options , performance level and results for any coach / manager

Looking for positives Fordy - How many of the same players have performed better under DH than they did under LJ

A fair few I’d suggest

Results have been decent , Performances haven't been ‘wonderful’....but I’d pose the question ... is this squad really capable of swashbuckling attacking football whilst achieving results ?.........

LJ was given four years , DH is making errors here and there but also doing something’s very right

....Is he the messiah ?, No , but I think he deserves the chance (Not 4 years !!!) to reshape the squad before he can be fairly judged

Another squad reshape......l.That may be a tough pill to swallow for those desperate to see us promoted.....but it’s probably the truth

I’d agree with a lot of that Shelts. 
Particularly the bit around the actual quality of the players. I said all last season that I think many fans overestimate the comparative abilities of our squad vs the division. I said many times that I wasn’t sure if many (any) were of ‘Top 6’ standard. 
 

As you say, there are a number of ‘decent’ players in there, but I don’t think we have too many (if any) genuine top 6. Perhaps Bentley is one, but after that it’s a real toss-up. Kalas, when in form, arguably. 
 

It’s a bit of a reality dose for many. We have a 9th to 12th budget (approx) and LJ managed to get us to 9th to 12th (approx) in the league. 
LJ also had to reorganise each season having lost at least 1, sometimes 2, of his best players. Dean hasn’t had that. As you say, he’s got pretty much the same squad as LJ had, but for me, is producing inferior quality football compared to last season - and the quality base set by LJ last season is pretty low. So if Dean can achieve a Top 10 finish, with a 9th - 12th budget, and pretty much same squad, then he’ll be doing ok. 
At the moment, I genuinely think that if comparing LJ & DH, we likely would’ve achieved pretty much the same results this season but LJ would’ve been ‘slightly’ more entertaining football. 
Dean has got us playing as a generally solid team, but we lack possession, lack creativity, lack shots, corners, all the things that get fans entertained. Under LJ those metrics were marginally better. 
 

Obviously I’m not judging DH this early in his tenure. He’s got plenty of time for me. But, there are some signs there that I see as worrying and I’d like to see how he manages to improve on that. 

[Sheltons Army]

13 minutes ago, Harry said:

I’d agree with a lot of that Shelts. 
Particularly the bit around the actual quality of the players. I said all last season that I think many fans overestimate the comparative abilities of our squad vs the division. I said many times that I wasn’t sure if many (any) were of ‘Top 6’ standard. 
 

As you say, there are a number of ‘decent’ players in there, but I don’t think we have too many (if any) genuine top 6. Perhaps Bentley is one, but after that it’s a real toss-up. Kalas, when in form, arguably. 
 

It’s a bit of a reality dose for many. We have a 9th to 12th budget (approx) and LJ managed to get us to 9th to 12th (approx) in the league. 
LJ also had to reorganise each season having lost at least 1, sometimes 2, of his best players. Dean hasn’t had that. As you say, he’s got pretty much the same squad as LJ had, but for me, is producing inferior quality football compared to last season - and the quality base set by LJ last season is pretty low. So if Dean can achieve a Top 10 finish, with a 9th - 12th budget, and pretty much same squad, then he’ll be doing ok. 
At the moment, I genuinely think that if comparing LJ & DH, we likely would’ve achieved pretty much the same results this season but LJ would’ve been ‘slightly’ more entertaining football. 
Dean has got us playing as a generally solid team, but we lack possession, lack creativity, lack shots, corners, all the things that get fans entertained. Under LJ those metrics were marginally better. 
 

Obviously I’m not judging DH this early in his tenure. He’s got plenty of time for me. But, there are some signs there that I see as worrying and I’d like to see how he manages to improve on that. 

The other stark reality of course when you really examine the squad and personnel , and even playing at their max we would be annilated in the Prem with a squad based on current personnel - if by some miracle we slid up this season , the ‘Promised Land’ may benefit the Club financially but the experience would Id suggest be very miserable 

Theres no way we could upgrade enough for the Prem , too many positions to upgrade

It rankles because we have to show more ‘patience’ (I’ve been having to do so , like many , for most of the last 50 odd years !! )

But we are in no way ready , base squad wise for the Prem ...and that’s the harsh reality 

Recruitment, historically and in future ,  as much as the identity of the Head Coach is the key for me 

[Robbored]

Since the days Tinnion City have not had a gifted creative midfielder. I can remember ages back seeing and contributing to threads on here about that very subject and we still don’t have anyone capable.

With Walsh, Willams and Pato all unavailable City struggle to create anything. Nagy is a tidy player but needs an enforcer alongside him in mould of a Marvin Elliot.

It’ll be interesting to see what Deano does to try and rectify the issue against really tough opposition on Wednesday 

 

[GrahamC]

3 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

I think he said we would be ‘looking to win games’ and ‘get on the front foot’ as opposed to ‘attacking’ but your overall point is a fair one

I think we miss Weimann more than many realise , and I bet DH does too

Absolutely.

There is also an element here of 2 things;

Firstly what I’d term as what you say at a job interview as opposed to what you actually do when you work for someone, as what we are doing now is nothing like what was promised.

Which leads on to the situation we are currently in, 7 squad members out injured (Baker, Mawson, Sessegnon, Williams, Walsh, Paterson & Weimann), so his comments after yesterday’s game were effectively that we are short of bodies & need to get through this spell the best we can until some of them return.

If this is a short term plan, honestly explained, many would live with it.

Problem is Weimann is already out for the season & there is no guarantee others won’t get injured, then Paterson aside I don’t honestly see the return of any of these players altering things, Williams is clearly being missed but he’s hardly a creator or scorer of goals, (with 2 in his career so far) is he?

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, Harry said:

I’d say we’ve actually regressed under Holden. 
I mentioned this in the matchday thread yesterday, but I looked last week (pre-QPR) at the comparison to last season. 
After 14 games we had the same points. However, we were worse on a number of metrics. Less Draws, More Losses, Less Goals Scored. 
I then looked at DH’s last 5 games vs LJ’s last 5 games. Less possession (by a distance), less goals scored, less shots, less shots on target, less corners. 
The key metrics that could be construed as giving “entertaining football” are all lower under Holden (from what was already a low base under LJ).
 

We are conceding less goals, which is great. However, it’s to the detriment of any semblance of an attacking strategy whatsoever. We are not a good team in possession. We don’t create chances. We don’t have shots at goal. Whilst the last 18 months or so under LJ were rather dull, I think Dean has taken this to another level. 
Hopefully he can turn it around, but I’ve not seen much yet to convince me that we are ‘on the cusp’ of any great change. 

We have regressed from early season standards of performance....which I really enjoyed.

As you and @Sheltons Armyhave said we have a decent squad of 6s and 7s....early season the cohesiveness and having our best players available culminated in those 6s and 7s turning into more 7s and the odd 8.  That’s a differentiator....that’s now regressed.

I do think the squad is a bit stronger than 10 days ago, both in personnel and returning fitness...and now is the time to go back to a bit more energetic, tempo football....that’s a bit more exciting.

But that remains for Holden to implement.

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

We had a chance with Cook, we didn’t take it. 

There were and might still be contractual complications there.

As I recall, he was only allowed to leave Wigan waiving compensation once he reassured them he was not walking into another job.

The administrators saw him as an asset and as such were refusing to release him.

For all we know, there could've been or could be a 6 month, year long clause that says he can't take on another job as part of the terms of leaving compensation free!

[Mr Popodopolous]

As for why we don't score enough.

Post Norwich at home, we have been less proactive in general and we haven't been creating enough basically.

13 pts from the last 7 is a very good return and especially given the drop off in chance creation.

Despite the 3-1 loss we actually created a fair bit at home to Norwich, Bournemouth away first half we were excellent too.

EDIT: Huddersfield away maybe the one, in which we last created a decent amount. Either Norwich at home or Huddersfield away.

[Mr Popodopolous]

29 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Absolutely.

There is also an element here of 2 things;

Firstly what I’d term as what you say at a job interview as opposed to what you actually do when you work for someone, as what we are doing now is nothing like what was promised.

Which leads on to the situation we are currently in, 7 squad members out injured (Baker, Mawson, Sessegnon, Williams, Walsh, Paterson & Weimann), so his comments after yesterday’s game were effectively that we are short of bodies & need to get through this spell the best we can until some of them return.

If this is a short term plan, honestly explained, many would live with it.

Problem is Weimann is already out for the season & there is no guarantee others won’t get injured, then Paterson aside I don’t honestly see the return of any of these players altering things, Williams is clearly being missed but he’s hardly a creator or scorer of goals, (with 2 in his career so far) is he?

Mawson returning due to his ballplaying, perhaps even more importantly ball carrying ways could help.

Are we talking about attacking players specifically or  

Weimann, think we're missing him somewhat. Whether as the support striker in a 3-5-2 say or perhaps wide right but pushed high (NOT on the wing) in a version of 4-3-3. He'd chip in with goals, assists and energy though, every so often.

Maybe with what we have available though, could be worth a try to start Wells central, keep Semenyo wide right as support striker then maybe Paterson wide left when he returns. Or O'Dowda?

Nagy, Bakinson and AN Other. Brunt in CM doesn't really do it for me.

[1960maaan]

5 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

Not much has changed under Holden, which isn’t a great surprise. Don’t get me wrong, I think he’s done an adequate job in terms of results, but will much change when you appoint a number two when the bulk of their experience is under the bloke who’s just been sacked?

We had a chance with Cook, we didn’t take it. 

While agree to a point, and at the risk of repeating myself, I don't think we will see what Holden had planned until we have his players in. 

He wanted to build around Walsh (creativity) and he signed Williams as his man (box to box & ball winner) . That is the engine room of the team, you can add Baker and even Mawson, That's a solid back line, balance and creativity all missing from the team.

If we had got someone else in, and they had the same injuries they would probably have struggled . 

[Fordy62]

8 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

While agree to a point, and at the risk of repeating myself, I don't think we will see what Holden had planned until we have his players in. 

He wanted to build around Walsh (creativity) and he signed Williams as his man (box to box & ball winner) . That is the engine room of the team, you can add Baker and even Mawson, That's a solid back line, balance and creativity all missing from the team.

If we had got someone else in, and they had the same injuries they would probably have struggled . 

Very fair points, but maybe we’re not seeing quite as much intent with the ball as we did in that match early on that got me excited (I forget who it was against!). 

[AppyDAZE]

4 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

I think he said we would be ‘looking to win games’ and ‘get on the front foot’ as opposed to ‘attacking’ but your overall point is a fair one

I think we miss Weimann more than many realise , and I bet DH does too

I'm struggling to remember the last manager to say that he isn't looking to win games.

[nickolas]

On commentary last week they mentioned weve had the fewest crosses made of any team. 
Considering under LJ he was obsessed with crossing then this is a major reason. 
So, why arent we crossing?

Because our possession is so lacklustre, slow and obvious, we dont stand a chance of getting to the byline to make a cross. 
Deano talked of aggressive fast football. I currently see exactly the opposite. 
Injuries are playing a huge part, but DH says its no excuse, so no excuses allowed, up our game and get the players playing how he said he wanted us to!!!

[DT The Optimist]

Some good points all round, also DH  might fall into same trap with Wells as happened to AW. He’s a forward, not a wide player, a fox in the box. Play him as one and he will bag 20 goals. Sure I heard tin man yesterday say he’s got be in the box more so than on the wing. 

One feels for DH and team with injuries, COVID issues etc but sq pegs in sq holes and all that....

We have a squad, when most available, to give any championship a run for money, and get back to what’s best for us, 352 and have players supplying Martin/Fam with service.. that means JD on LHS, and Hunt RHS...

[miketh2nd]

6 hours ago, mozo said:

I think Wells is the only player we have with killer instinct, so it would make sense to create a system that gets him in the box.

O'Dowda and Semenyo have been standout players in recent games, but they don't have the killer instinct when they get into attacking positions.

Remember Leroy Lita and how single minded ge was about scoring goals? Every time he saw an opening he'd take the shot on and hit it with intent. 

If only we could awaken the predator in them.

Also, our shooting from distance is really poor. Wells hits them over the bar, O'Dowda hits them into the ground and Semenyo passes them.

So the solution...I guess we need Wells back in a 2 with Martin, or leading the line as a 1, to enable him to get in the box more.

We need Semenyo and O'Dowda to focus in training on scoring goals.

And finally we need to create better chances, which like I said in another thread, comes from exposing the wide defenders and playing balls across goal.

 You bringing up Lita and his hunger for goals reminds me of one of my favourite city strike partnerships between  Lita and Steve Brooker!

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Fordy62 said:

Very fair points, but maybe we’re not seeing quite as much intent with the ball as we did in that match early on that got me excited (I forget who it was against!). 

I honestly feel that the Kalas knock and absence was the game changer. We were left with Vyner , Moore and Rowe. CB's numbers 4,5 &6 in the pecking order. We muddled through against Watford and got a chasing against Reading, we had already been conceding possession and allowing other teams the ball for long spells. Holden actually said something about getting through this spell . 
We have had a few games this year when we've done well, but playing well and playing well at home? Maybe Sheff Wed ?
It just feels like we are trying to hold what we have, specially first 45, then maybe sneak a win. Brummie's was the first time we came unstuck. I don't expect great passing football any time soon, what's the usual timescale? After the next International break ?