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PSG Vs Istanbul Basaksehir postponed due to comments made by 4th official


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10 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

Do you believe the police are wrong when they refer to suspects by their race then when there is a high speed chase on? And is it desirable for match officials to communicate in a similar 'fast-paced' way when officiating a football match?

No, because the police would describe them as "The suspect is a white male around 6 foot with short black hair" or "The suspect is a black male around 6 foot with short black hair".

The official in yesterdays game could have frog-marched the ref to Webo and said " this is the coaching staff who did xyz" (I don't actually know the reason why he needed to distinguish Webo out)

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12 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

Do you believe the police are wrong when they refer to suspects by their race then when there is a high speed chase on? And is it desirable for match officials to communicate in a similar 'fast-paced' way when officiating a football match?

That's a completely false equivalency and anyone with half a brain knows it.

When communicating a suspects features to colleagues then of course saying whether they are black, caucasian, asian, etc. is relevant, as would be height estimates or age estimates.

As opposed to a football match where the players have massive numbers on their shirts, and coaches have initials on their tracksuits.

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53 minutes ago, petehinton said:

Some people need to just sit down and realise that, as a white person, it isn’t your place to basically comment on what is/isn’t racist toward black people. It’s not hard to understand. 
 

The first thought toward all this shouldn’t be ‘well that isn’t even a racist comment’.  

Instead it appears to be "i say this all the time" or "its so common"...  as if thats some sort of defence 😂

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Just now, grifty said:

No, because the police would describe them as "The suspect is a white male around 6 foot with short black hair" or "The suspect is a black male around 6 foot with short black hair".

The official in yesterdays game could have frog-marched the ref to Webo and said " this is the coaching staff who did xyz" (I don't actually know the reason why he needed to distinguish Webo out)

I don't think frog-marching over the official as the game is going on is practical. I suppose they can add the time back on but it seems to ridiculous to slow down the game to do that, when you can easily identify the person in a second.

 

Just now, JamesBCFC said:

That's a completely false equivalency and anyone with half a brain knows it.

When communicating a suspects features to colleagues then of course saying whether they are black, caucasian, asian, etc. is relevant, as would be height estimates or age estimates.

As opposed to a football match where the players have massive numbers on their shirts, and coaches have initials on their tracksuits.

Don't think if the ref is by the centre circle that its realistic to pick out the coaches initials on their tracksuit, but even so I don't think the coach last night even had clear initials on his tracksuit either so what you're saying isn't very relevant.

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1 minute ago, Baba Yaga said:

I don't think frog-marching over the official as the game is going on is practical. I suppose they can add the time back on but it seems to ridiculous to slow down the game to do that, when you can easily identify the person in a second.

 

Don't think if the ref is by the centre circle that its realistic to pick out the coaches initials on their tracksuit, but even so I don't think the coach last night even had clear initials on his tracksuit either so what you're saying isn't very relevant.

It was the 4th official, not the referee who made the comments, so it is completely relevant.

Edited by JamesBCFC
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Just now, JamesBCFC said:

It was the 4th official, not the referee who made the comments, so it is completely relevant.

I think the 4th official said the phrase so the ref could understand who he was talking about, if he had said PW instead the ref wouldn't have been able to see the initials.

Do you even know what happened? 😆

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30 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

That's a completely false equivalency and anyone with half a brain knows it.

When communicating a suspects features to colleagues then of course saying whether they are black, caucasian, asian, etc. is relevant, as would be height estimates or age estimates.

As opposed to a football match where the players have massive numbers on their shirts, and coaches have initials on their tracksuits.

Whilst ranting and being rude to others , have a look at the initials on their identical jackets - subs and staff alike

 

1B7B4DC0-4914-477B-AB3F-6831772CE092.jpeg

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4 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

I think the 4th official said the phrase so the ref could understand who he was talking about, if he had said PW instead the ref wouldn't have been able to see the initials.

Do you even know what happened? 😆

Do you?

There are many different ways he could have identified the person.

"The one on the left of the technical area"

"The one with his hands in his pockets"

"He's walking away"

"The person that *managers name* is talking to" 

 

The referee will be aware of who the manager and at least the assistant manager is for both teams.

So by saying Webo the referee would have known exactly who it was.

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7 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

I think the 4th official said the phrase so the ref could understand who he was talking about, if he had said PW instead the ref wouldn't have been able to see the initials.

Do you even know what happened? 😆

Look. Do you think at work it's alright to identify someone by the colour of their skin?

You can deflect and argue semantics as much as you want but that's the fundamental question.

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1 minute ago, Sheltons Army said:

Whilst ranting and being rude to others , have a look at the initials on their identical jackets - subs and staff alike

 

1B7B4DC0-4914-477B-AB3F-6831772CE092.jpeg

See my last post.

The referee would have been aware of who the manager and assistant manager is for each side.

If it was the kit man or something then I wouldn't expect the referee to know them by name, but it wasnt. It was a prominent member of the Başakşehir staff.

Here's an official teamsheet from another game though layout aside it is the same down to non league level.

So the 4th official should absolutely be aware of who people are.

 

BjCFBwEIAAAAxA_.jpg

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16 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

I don't think frog-marching over the official as the game is going on is practical. I suppose they can add the time back on but it seems to ridiculous to slow down the game to do that, when you can easily identify the person in a second.

So calling him the black one leading to all the players leaving the field and the game being abandoned kept the intensity in the game did it? Again the point is Webo can be identified by more things than "the black one". Football is not life or death or urgent. The 4th official could have easily asked someone/anyone for his name. It's about respect for a fellow human.

I recommend the following song to try and get a viewpoint of people who feel they are on the receiving end of these experiences;

 

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2 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Look. Do you think at work it's alright to identify someone by the colour of their skin?

You can deflect and argue semantics as much as you want but that's the fundamental question.

It depends, if you both know the person by name then no, in the example you made earlier then no too but I don't think that's a fair comparison to refereeing a fast paced football match where quick communication is important. I'm not deflecting either I am trying to give some balanced insight into this from the officials position.

Just now, grifty said:

So calling him the black one leading to all the players leaving the field and the game being abandoned kept the intensity in the game did it? Again the point is Webo can be identified by more things than "the black one". Football is not life or death or urgent. The 4th official could have easily asked someone/anyone for his name. It's about respect for a fellow human.

I recommend the following song to try and get a viewpoint of people who feel they are on the receiving end of these experiences;

 

To be fair to the coach too in Romanian it sounds worse and is closer to discriminating language. But I still don't think referring to a black person as black is a big deal, can't watch the video right now but I'm sure Dave puts negative connotations on the word black which isn't what happened in this situation. Surely Dave understands that things can have different meanings at different times and in this case there was an observation made with no dehumanising intent.

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36 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

See my last post.

The referee would have been aware of who the manager and assistant manager is for each side.

If it was the kit man or something then I wouldn't expect the referee to know them by name, but it wasnt. It was a prominent member of the Başakşehir staff.

Here's an official teamsheet from another game though layout aside it is the same down to non league level.

So the 4th official should absolutely be aware of who people are.

 

BjCFBwEIAAAAxA_.jpg

Am I missing something here?

This is only a team sheet - it doesn't list who the people would be on the bench

Especially wouldn't indicate who each person was

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2 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

To be fair to the coach too in Romanian it sounds worse and is closer to discriminating language. But I still don't think referring to a black person as black is a big deal, can't watch the video right now but I'm sure Dave puts negative connotations on the word black which isn't what happened in this situation. Surely Dave understands that things can have different meanings at different times and in this case there was an observation made with no dehumanising intent.

It doesn't, I've always wondered if anyone has been offended by the country Montenegro. It means Black Mountain, but still...

The bit in bold is the exact point. It's not up to you to determine that. It's for the person bering referred to as black if they feel it is a big deal.

I'll pick out a few lines of the song which sort of makes it so powerful.

"It is racist whether or not it feels racist"

"The least racist is still racist"

"Equality is a right, it doesn't deserve credit"

"If you don't want to get, then you're never gonna get it"

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13 minutes ago, phantom said:

Am I missing something here?

This is only a team sheet - it doesn't list who the people would be on the bench

Especially wouldn't indicate who each person was

No, I didnt check the image properly.

I've seen multiple teamsheets at lower levels where the manager and assistant are both listed, so just did an image search for a teamsheet and picked the first one.

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1 hour ago, Baba Yaga said:

Do you believe the police are wrong when they refer to suspects by their race then when there is a high speed chase on? And is it desirable for match officials to communicate in a similar 'fast-paced' way when officiating a football match?

These are two completely different examples, with no relevance at all to each other, or the issue in hand.

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So this thread has now gone the entire of the usual argument that things aren't discriminatory when they clearly are. 

1.  How can you possibly find that offensive - I don't.

2.  It wasn't meant to be offensive.

3.  It was the fault of the one who was discriminated against.

Perfect list.

Just shows how much inbuilt issues there are in football.

 

Edited by Hxj
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4 minutes ago, Rossi the Robin said:

Ok no problem. I don’t have an issue with it. Maybe it’s wrong but I see it as basic identification and I’m pretty sure the people on the bench misinterpreted it as something else with the language barrier 

Its nothing to do with whether you have an issue with it! Can't understand why people can't grasp this simple concept. 

Its the effect it has on the person it was aimed at. Demba Ba and numerous other players have previously been subjected to racist abuse from fans whilst as their place of work. Incidents like last night will have a huge effect on them. 

Misinterpretation or ignorance does not excuse it. 

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9 minutes ago, !james said:

Its nothing to do with whether you have an issue with it! Can't understand why people can't grasp this simple concept. 

Its the effect it has on the person it was aimed at. Demba Ba and numerous other players have previously been subjected to racist abuse from fans whilst as their place of work. Incidents like last night will have a huge effect on them. 

Misinterpretation or ignorance does not excuse it. 

So is the basis of guilt based purely on the feelings of the accuser, or does there have to be some element of intent behind it, which it could be demonstrated would in some way contravene a law? Honest question 👍

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