“A breath of fresh air”

[Red white and red]

5 minutes ago, Robin-hugh-blind said:

Fair to say not meny here wanted DH (me included), more so after the 'breath of fresh air' speech. So he started on a negative. Up until now the team performance has been less important as we were all happy with early season points tally (I still am) but given the initial disapproval and the poor football he simply has to win every other game to keep people off his back. I can't see it lasting but there's no real sense people wanting him out already. 1. They won't sack him untill were in the relegation zone or don't get playoffs on his second season. 2. We shouldn't sack managers too quickly, or we won't get decent replacements. 3. We have a few quality impactful players out, judge him at the end of season. 

So let’s continue to go with the cheap option and continue to tread water? 

[Lrrr]

How many of the people criticising Holden are the same as defending Hughton's start at Forest? Perhaps they're annoyed they didn't get their choice of manager still. Hughton showing at Forest that he perhaps wasn't the sort of guaranteed golden ticket for promotion (or play offs) that many were making out 

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, Lrrr said:

How many of the people criticising Holden are the same as defending Hughton's start at Forest? Perhaps they're annoyed they didn't get their choice of manager still. Hughton showing at Forest that he perhaps wasn't the sort of guaranteed golden ticket for promotion (or play offs) that many were making out 

 No one's guaranteed to succeed anywhere, but we would at least have known Hughton's done it in the past. All we knew about Holden as head coach was he was in charge for a pretty unsuccessful stint as caretaker manager after Lee was sacked.

[Robin-hugh-blind]

5 minutes ago, Red white and red said:

So let’s continue to go with the cheap option and continue to tread water? 

Pretty much my assessment of what the powers that be will be thinking given covid and Brexit. 

[Lrrr]

Just now, Red-Robbo said:

 No one's guaranteed to succeed anywhere, but we would at least have known Hughton's done it in the past. All we knew about Holden as head coach was he was in charge for a pretty unsuccessful stint as caretaker manager after Lee was sacked.

And if Hughton had got off to a slump start here? We'd have been laden with an expensive manager who'd have brought a lot of staff with him and more than likely wanted to sign players on high wages. Frankly in a season with next to nothing of income Holden more than likely was the right move, 1 transfer fee in the summer with a couple of frees and a couple of loans. People in this thread complaining we aren't dominating teams etc and our wins are unconvincing, how do they think our games under Hughton would have gone? Without the money to go out and assemble a full team of players he'd want Hughton probably would have resorted to pragmatism to see us through games. 

[Lrrr]

8 minutes ago, Red white and red said:

So let’s continue to go with the cheap option and continue to tread water? 

Frankly in a season with no income from fans not the worst thing to do. Should everything look positive in the summer with vaccinations, return of fans/income etc we could see the club say 'Thank you for seeing us through a rough patch Dean, but we want to go in another direction'. Potentially why he was given a 12 month rolling deal along with being his first managerial stint. Lets not forget we're in 7th so hardly in the bottom third of the table, a poor run would probably just see us drop to mid table and with 9 1st team players injured hardly surprising if we were mid table.

[Red-Robbo]

Just now, Lrrr said:

And if Hughton had got off to a slump start here? We'd have been laden with an expensive manager who'd have brought a lot of staff with him and more than likely wanted to sign players on high wages. Frankly in a season with next to nothing of income Holden more than likely was the right move, 1 transfer fee in the summer with a couple of frees and a couple of loans. People in this thread complaining we aren't dominating teams etc and our wins are unconvincing, how do they think our games under Hughton would have gone? Without the money to go out and assemble a full team of players he'd want Hughton probably would have resorted to pragmatism to see us through games. 

 

I don't think we can make that assumption. That's as much an assumption as saying "he's a big name, he'll be a success".

We didn't really invest this season. We let people go, didn't properly replace and the whole squad has a sort of Last Turkey's On The Shelf look about it. People go on about Covid, but it affects all squads, all revenue streams. Other teams got ready for the season rather better than us.  Holden's appointment was symptomatic of the rather ramshackle approach taken by our board + Ashton. 

[stephenkibby.]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

They aren't strictly indicative, and one must caution in conflating correlation and causation. However, honestly, are you able to tell them apart?

 

 

i have to say although i have had a few ciders,i have read that a few times and have no ideal what it means.

Then again i'm thick as shit.

[Lrrr]

4 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

I don't think we can make that assumption. That's as much an assumption as saying "he's a big name, he'll be a success".

We didn't really invest this season. We let people go, didn't properly replace and the whole squad has a sort of Last Turkey's On The Shelf look about it. People go on about Covid, but it affects all squads, all revenue streams. Other teams got ready for the season rather better than us.  Holden's appointment was symptomatic of the rather ramshackle approach taken by our board + Ashton. 

Articles online about Hughton bringing in staff with him and he went and signed Knockaert at the first possible chance who won't be cheap. 

So far only 6 teams got ready for this season better than us, 3 relegated clubs, the losers of the play off final and another team from the play offs last season, its only Reading who have made real strides ahead of us.

[Sheltons Army]

1 hour ago, lenred said:

Can we then agree that the reams of posts using Hughtons current bad run as a mechanism to defend the football under Holden at the moment are also pointless then?  

I’d have a read of Forests forum and comments about Hughtons set up and the ‘football under him Len

Comments no more than 3 players allowed at any one time in opposition half etc etc 

[ExiledAjax]

Just now, stephenkibby. said:

i have to say although i have had a few ciders,i have read that a few times and have no ideal what it means.

Then again i'm thick as shit.

Essentially mate (and right now I'm with you having had a few drinks) we are currently averaging roughly the same number of shots and shots on target, both for and against, as we did across the whole of last season.

Now that doesn't mean we are strictly "as good/bad" as were last year, but it shows a similar output, a similar quality of performance.

Basically: little has ultimately changed, whatever the results might be.

There are other statistics in which we've improved: passing for example. However ultimately it's shots that score you goals, and shots against that you concede from.

Enjoy the Natch and maybe read this again tomorrow if you're three sheets to the wind

[Red-Robbo]

2 hours ago, Lrrr said:

Articles online about Hughton bringing in staff with him and he went and signed Knockaert at the first possible chance who won't be cheap. 

So far only 6 teams got ready for this season better than us, 3 relegated clubs, the losers of the play off final and another team from the play offs last season, its only Reading who have made real strides ahead of us.

Well today Rotherham made great strides ahead of us.  After Holden's great start when other sides were just sorting their newbies out and getting settled, our form has been bang average. And here's the thing, we've never, not once, outplayed a rival over 90 minutes: even in the wins. 

We're midtable at best. Averaging 1.5 points per game now.

The Forest job came with its own major problems and challenges for any manager. You can't compare going there to coming to City.

So, repeat, we do not know what Hughton would've done had he been appointed here. And BTW the choice when Johnson was sacked was not Hughton or Holden and no one else. Other options were available.

In my view, we have a weaker squad than we had at the end of last season. Had Ashton & the board had the sense to make a swift appointment after Johnson's departure, we might be in a happier place now.

 

[mozo]

15 hours ago, BigTone said:

You win some, you lose some. That's football. Let's just move on to Millwall and try and bounce back.

In our case, you win one, then you lose one... then you win one, then you lose one...

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

23 minutes ago, mozo said:

In our case, you win one, then you lose one... then you win one, then you lose one...

So the complaints about ‘streaky Lee’ have now been replaced by winning alternative games.  Three points for every two games is not the end of the world...

[Red-Robbo]

48 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

So the complaints about ‘streaky Lee’ have now been replaced by winning alternative games.  Three points for every two games is not the end of the world...

69 points ain't going to get a team in the playoffs- which Johnson was sacked for failing to do. 

We also haven't had enough games to see if Holden will manage his own streak of losses, but I think it's in the post. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

13 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Maybe Houghton wouldn't  have arranged a meaningless behind doors friendly that Baker over exerted himself in. Maybe Houghton wouldn't have picked Weimann and would've  had him sat on the bench behind Wells and Martin. Maybe Houghton, or the team he brought with him, would have handled Williams' injury differently. Maybe he wouldn't  have bothered loaning Mawson and his busted knees at all. Maybe he'd have kept Eliasson, loaned in Knockaert, played 433 with Wells up top and not bothered getting Martin. 

And so on.

Your assumption that everything would have been exactly the same, bar Houghton standing in the dugout instead of Holden, is ridiculous. 

 

It's H-u-g-h-t-o-n, ffs! H-o-u-g-h-t-o-n was 40 years ago! 

 

C h r I s  H  U  G  H   -  T  O November

 

H

U 

G 

H

T

O

N

 

 

Chris    Hugh   (as in Fearnsley-Whittingham, Grant) ton.

and

Bob  How  (as in, brown cow) ton.

 

 

[BigTone]

18 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

It's H-u-g-h-t-o-n, ffs! H-o-u-g-h-t-o-n was 40 years ago! 

 

C h r I s  H  U  G  H   -  T  O November

 

H

U 

G 

H

T

O

N

 

 

Chris    Hugh   (as in Fearnsley-Whittingham, Grant) ton.

and

Bob  How  (as in, brown cow) ton.

 

 

What's his name ?

[Bazooka Joe]

29 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

It's H-u-g-h-t-o-n, ffs! H-o-u-g-h-t-o-n was 40 years ago! 

 

C h r I s  H  U  G  H   -  T  O November

 

H

U 

G 

H

T

O

N

 

 

Chris    Hugh   (as in Fearnsley-Whittingham, Grant) ton.

and

Bob  How  (as in, brown cow) ton.

 

 

In that case, we can forget about getting Eddie Hough !

Howe, Howe, Howe ...Merry Christmas !

 

[Bristol Oil Services]

13 minutes ago, BigTone said:

What's his name ?

Bob Hughton

[Davefevs]

17 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

In fairness to Holden, I’m pretty sure almost no one has the injury list we do. 

We still have more than enough to at least match Rotherham though!

No they don’t.  People pointed to Norwich, but that was a 2-game injury hit squad, not months and months, like us.  What we are seeing is that with our best(ish) eleven out of say 13 on the pitch we are as competitive as anyone.  But when you start having to pick players beneath that best eleven, you will get worse performances.  Yesterday was unacceptable imho and you’ve got to question the head-coach, but also many of the eleven who took the pitch and didn’t do the basics either technically or mentally or in some cases both, which in some cases is about attitude and desire.

For me of the starting outfield players only Wells got close to earning his corn yesterday.

17 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

Ooooh. I like a good provable lie. Well evidenced. Have yourself a Pat on the back!

So effin what.  Your response is to a bloke who wants to pick fault in everything Holden says, especially injuries, but he himself avoids the facts presented, because he’s baked in his view.  Ever been in an interview where stuff comes out of your mouth that is kinda accurate but not 100%.  And bouncing back isn’t necessarily winning after a loss, a draw can be bouncing back.  In your job, it’s probably the complete opposite!!

Yesterday was a day to criticise the game and I’m fine with people seeing a worrying trend too and linking...I agree there is one.  But it’s the ability to complete blank out the early games of the season where we played much better.

[Davefevs]

17 hours ago, Ecko said:

Its not the results that is the concern Tone, its the manner that we are losing games. There hasn't been a game this season where we have dominated the full 90 minutes and for a team that is pushing for play offs, that is a major concern.

I wish we’d stuff this “dominating for 90 minutes” line.

Yes, the odd one or two would be nice, don’t get me wrong....but unless you’re a Norwich or Bournemouth they ain’t gonna happen very often in a season.  Most games are pretty close. The expectation to dominate a game for 90 minutes are unrealistic.

If you want to argue we’ve not played well in several games, I’m with you, but not dominating also doesn’t mean we’ve been playing badly either.

Rant over

[Davefevs]

17 hours ago, super slick said:

Not even close 

Coventry - dire football, undeserved win started well, allowed Cov a good 25 min spell in the first half.  Settled second half and by the hour had got back on top where we turned up the dial and ran out the better side over the 90, and in my opinion by enough to claim a deserved win.

Forest - dire football, undeserved win some of the football we played first half was excellent.  Bentley had a stellar game, and I think a draw fair....most of Forest shot were speculative including a right foot swinger from LF.

Barnsley - dire football dire first half (against a heavy press - very much like yesterday), much better second half.  Draw fair, even though it felt unjust with injury time penalty.

Boro - dire football, deserved loss dour game from both sides, very little created.  No way did we deserve to lose.  It was a nailed on 0-0 but for Moore’s mistake.  Should’ve had a pen, but both sides created very little.

Norwich - dire football, deserved loss deserved loss, crap defending, but dire football?  Crikey, we created loads that day.  Too open? Yep.  Punished? Yep....but not dire football.

Huddersfield - dire football, undeserved win dire for 65mins, but Huddersfield passed with little threat, scoring from a mistake.  Undeserved win?  Yep, a draw fair.  

Cardiff - dire football, if Moore wasn’t their striker it would have been a loss the beauty of scoring first.  They actually created very little too.  We defended well, but agree we were poor with the ball.

Derby - dire football, undeserved win disagree, different ways to win a game.  Let Derby have it and the counter.  It’s not how I want us to play, but I don’t think it was dire.  I could see the plan, and we executed it well.

Reading - dire football, deserved loss shite, agree

Birmingham - dire football, deserved loss a first half where we grew into it and dominated the last 25 mins of 1st half.  2nd half tactical change lost that control.  Brum shaded the match overall, and 0-0 / 0-1 type of game.

Rotherham - dire football, deserved loss  the worst of the worst

Add in QPR, sheff wed & Swansea where at least for 45 minutes the performance was pretty bad! 

It’s easy to look at every opposition performance as more threatening than ours, it’s a natural reaction, but if you were a neutral I think you’d see performances / results differently.

My views above
 

Ultimately I think we have more points than we deserved but I think it is too easy to look at things through shite-tinted glasses imho

[Alessandro]

Good posts @Davefevs - as always a calm balanced view!

I’ve been critical - but I’ve got to agree, there is no doubt injuries have taken their toll but I’ve been thinking about it and still feel it’s a bit too much of an excuse.

Why? Well we’ve still got enough of what was the ‘first team’ available to compete yesterday and when key players like Kalas, (now) Bakinson, Martin, Wells, Hunt and key squad players like COD, Semenyo, Vyner all seem to underperform as a whole, for me that’s on DH. 
 

Yes fatigue is a factor, but Rotherham were away to Watford for a tough game midweek and looked miles fresher (even rested their top scorer). All the teams have a tough schedule right now. Ultimately if fatigue was going to be such a factor yesterday, DH had to recognise that and make the needed changes. To be honest I’d rather lose a game with fresh ‘weaker’ players at least giving it a go. Fam, Mariappa, Massengo, Moore could have come in at least.

And finally I also feel this idea that at full strength all would be rosy is again just speculation. We ‘might’ have been up their without the injuries, but until we’ve seen a long period with a full squad, we don’t know. Remember LJ’s team at its best just running out of steam. The new manager bounce has gone for Holden and it might have gone with a full squad too.

Can our full team do it for a whole season? The performances of the fit key players now suggests maybe that’s not a given.

[BigTone]

44 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Bob Hughton

That's her !!!

[BigTone]

9 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Good posts @Davefevs - as always a calm balanced view!

I’ve been critical - but I’ve got to agree, there is no doubt injuries have taken their toll but I’ve been thinking about it and still feel it’s a bit too much of an excuse.

Why? Well we’ve still got enough of what was the ‘first team’ available to compete yesterday and when key players like Kalas, (now) Bakinson, Martin, Wells, Hunt and key squad players like COD, Semenyo, Vyner all seem to underperform as a whole, for me that’s on DH. 
 

Yes fatigue is a factor, but Rotherham were away to Watford for a tough game midweek and looked miles fresher (even rested their top scorer). All the teams have a tough schedule right now. Ultimately if fatigue was going to be such a factor yesterday, DH had to recognise that and make the needed changes. To be honest I’d rather lose a game with fresh ‘weaker’ players at least giving it a go. Fam, Mariappa, Massengo, Moore could have come in at least.

And finally I also feel this idea that at full strength all would be rosy is again just speculation. We ‘might’ have been up their without the injuries, but until we’ve seen a long period with a full squad, we don’t know. Remember LJ’s team at its best just running out of steam. The new manager bounce has gone for Holden and it might have gone with a full squad too.

Can our full team do it for a whole season? The performances of the fit key players now suggests maybe that’s not a given.

Tend to agree with this and let's remember all teams have played 18 games so we aren't exactly Robinson Crusoe in the respect.

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Good posts @Davefevs - as always a calm balanced view!

it’s pretty much why I stayed off OTIB last night....had Basketball to watch too....but Forever Bristol pod was quite civilised too.  You can be balanced and critical, and I totally get the frustration/anger last night.

I’ve been critical - but I’ve got to agree, there is no doubt injuries have taken their toll but I’ve been thinking about it and still feel it’s a bit too much of an excuse.

definitely a factor and definitely too much of an excuse.  We aren’t at a point where we are throwing in Towler, Edwards and Bell....they are predominantly filling bench space, although nice to see Holden giving a few minutes to them (not Towler yet).

Why? Well we’ve still got enough of what was the ‘first team’ available to compete yesterday and when key players like Kalas, (now) Bakinson, Martin, Wells, Hunt and key squad players like COD, Semenyo, Vyner all seem to underperform as a whole, for me that’s on DH.

For me, excuses (major excuses) about squad went out of the window when Kalas and then Bakinson came back.  The performance yesterday is inexcusable.  FWIW I thought Wells was the only outfield player to get a 6/10 yesterday.  I’ve never marked a team as low as I did yesterday.
 

Yes fatigue is a factor, but Rotherham were away to Watford for a tough game midweek and looked miles fresher (even rested their top scorer). All the teams have a tough schedule right now. Ultimately if fatigue was going to be such a factor yesterday, DH had to recognise that and make the needed changes. To be honest I’d rather lose a game with fresh ‘weaker’ players at least giving it a go. Fam, Mariappa, Massengo, Moore could have come in at least.

Yesterday was the game to freshen up to give you a better / stronger option v Millwall.  Now we have the worst of both worlds!  For me part of the problem was heart and desire mentally.  I saw laziness, passing the buck.  I don’t like that.

And finally I also feel this idea that at full strength all would be rosy is again just speculation. We ‘might’ have been up their without the injuries, but until we’ve seen a long period with a full squad, we don’t know. Remember LJ’s team at its best just running out of steam. The new manager bounce has gone for Holden and it might have gone with a full squad too.

As per my comment above, if the heart and desire isn’t there, you get turned over.  Quality counts for little in these situations.

Can our full team do it for a whole season? The performances of the fit key players now suggests maybe that’s not a given.

I didn’t see enough players giving a shit yesterday.  Wells and Bentley....funnily enough the two players I gave a 6/10, were two (out of a small number) of them.  Yesterday needed a minor version of the Orr/Carey moment.  

[Calculus]

1 hour ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

It's H-u-g-h-t-o-n, ffs! H-o-u-g-h-t-o-n was 40 years ago! 

 

C h r I s  H  U  G  H   -  T  O November

 

H

U 

G 

H

T

O

N

 

 

Chris    Hugh   (as in Fearnsley-Whittingham, Grant) ton.

and

Bob  How  (as in, brown cow) ton.

 

 

It's Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall.

Crikey, how difficult is it to get a name right?

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

It's H-u-g-h-t-o-n, ffs! H-o-u-g-h-t-o-n was 40 years ago! 

 

C h r I s  H  U  G  H   -  T  O November

 

H

U 

G 

H

T

O

N

 

 

Chris    Hugh   (as in Fearnsley-Whittingham, Grant) ton.

and

Bob  How  (as in, brown cow) ton.

 

 

Not after a shopping trip to Cribbs and 2 bottles of red it's not. 

[Rinkadink]

10 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

Had Ashton & the board had the sense to make a swift appointment after Johnson's departure, we might be in a happier place now.

 

Maybe, but might be in a worse place too had the wrong appointment been made in a rush.

You admit we have a weaker squad yet points and statistics are very close to the previous season so would it be fair to Holden to say that he's done better with the lesser resources he has available so far? It seems that's the case. 

I'm not saying he's the messiah or even that he'll be the right man for the job by the end of next season but I believe he's exceeded most people's (including mine) expectations so far and should have earned some respect from the fans. Decimated squad, minimal signings, new coaching/support set up to implement their systems, no credit, etc. I can't be too unhappy with where City are right now, it's been a lot worse including under the much lauded Cotts. Yesterday was unacceptable though, if it's repeated I'll start to be more concerned.

[Bristol Oil Services]

1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Not after a shopping trip to Cribbs and 2 bottles of red it's not. 

I gave this a laugh, then ran out of reactions so cancelled it and I've give it to @italian dave for his nice little turnt comment. Just knock out some SL/guernsey/ego rant nonsense tomorrow and I'll give you a "like" for that. Or a "laugh" If you'd prefer. Cheers.