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How many changes for Tuesday?


ohhhshauntaylor

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8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I just hope Pato is back.

And Dean, don’t re-invent the wheel, you drilled a team in a given system pre-season, stick to it.

It’s what a lot of us liked about your caretaker spell and early run this season.  I’m sure you learned a few things about certain players today. 

Agree with this. 
Holden was set on his 3-5-2 set up. He should continue with it. 
Since he dropped it, he’s changed formation about 17 times. It’s amateurish to be fair. 
 

The only time I criticised Holden for his steadfastness / stubbornness to his system was when we only had 2 fit centre backs and he moved Rowe to the LCB role. That was wrong. 
If you’ve only got 2 CB’s then you can’t play a 3 CB system and fudge someone in there. 
 

However, we currently have 4 fit CB’s plus a decently rated Towler on standby. That’s ample personnel to revert back to the ‘system’ that was worked on all Summer. 
 

Add the fact that Mariappa was head and shoulders our best player today and he must come in. 
Add the further fact that our record signing and most proven scorer at this level is being asked to play wide left, and he must be put back up top again. 
 

I’m fully expecting a switch back to the 3-5-2 in the next game. 

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One thing holding us back from changes , is options.
I would like to see the 3-5-2, and with Moore and Mariappa on the bench we have the players.  So back 3 of Kalas, Mariappa, Vyner/Moore. Moore if Vyner needs a rest.
MF is tougher. Don't want to drop either Nagy or Bakinson, but AN has played a lot and TB hasn't looked right on it. Supposing they are able to play, I'd swap COD for HNM. The WB options are the most limited, as in no choice, Hunt & Rowe. Unless Hunt is struggling then Edwards.
Up top, Fam has got to get games soon. I'd go him and Wells as a 2. 

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39 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

What do you think about Martin up top on his own Dave?

In a 2 or not at all for me!

It all depends how you support him.

As I’ve often said, one up top isn’t defensive, just as three forwards isn’t necessarily attacking either.  It’s about how everyone plays.

But I’m adamant (and happy to be wrong) that the more players we play centrally the better we are, the closer our units are likely to play together....and the more likely we are to see a performance.

23 minutes ago, Harry said:

Agree with this. 
Holden was set on his 3-5-2 set up. He should continue with it. 
Since he dropped it, he’s changed formation about 17 times. It’s amateurish to be fair. 
 

The only time I criticised Holden for his steadfastness / stubbornness to his system was when we only had 2 fit centre backs and he moved Rowe to the LCB role. That was wrong. 
If you’ve only got 2 CB’s then you can’t play a 3 CB system and fudge someone in there. 
 

However, we currently have 4 fit CB’s plus a decently rated Towler on standby. That’s ample personnel to revert back to the ‘system’ that was worked on all Summer. 
 

Add the fact that Mariappa was head and shoulders our best player today and he must come in. 
Add the further fact that our record signing and most proven scorer at this level is being asked to play wide left, and he must be put back up top again. 
 

I’m fully expecting a switch back to the 3-5-2 in the next game. 

I didn’t agree with Rowe at LCB, but I understood why he went with it.  I very much suspect the dilemma without Mawson or Baker is who is sacrificed to play LCB.  In some respects Moore at LCB has only played really badly v Norwich who are a good side.  So pick the best 3 CBs to fit a 352.

The only players to come out with any credit today were Bentley and Wells of the starters.  Mariappa solid when he came on.  Massengo too in brief minutes.  He at least tried to pass and move.

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9 hours ago, ohhhshauntaylor said:

As per title. 
 

Is now the time for DH to return to 3-5-2 and “freshen” things up? 

Yes it is. The only benefit of playing 4-3-3 is it allows Semenyo to play, BUT it means Wells out of position and does not suit Martin either. Add to that Semenyo getting worse game by game and it should be clear we need to revert to 3-5-2.

Regardless of formation we need to start with 2 fully fit proper CMs. So 2 from Nagy, Bakinson, Massengo at mo, not Brunt. Bakinson did not look fully fit from the start yesterday. 

Get back to those basics and maybe we can bounce back v Millwall. 

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8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I just hope Pato is back.

And Dean, don’t re-invent the wheel, you drilled a team in a given system pre-season, stick to it.

It’s what a lot of us liked about your caretaker spell and early run this season.  I’m sure you learned a few things about certain players today. 

Doesn’t sound like Pato will be back on Tuesday based on Holden’s post-match interview...

I’m with you though.....need to go back to 3-5-2....the players seem more comfortable in that system and after yesterday’s performance, need to go back to what was working early-on in the season

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8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

It all depends how you support him.

As I’ve often said, one up top isn’t defensive, just as three forwards isn’t necessarily attacking either.  It’s about how everyone plays.

But I’m adamant (and happy to be wrong) that the more players we play centrally the better we are, the closer our units are likely to play together....and the more likely we are to see a performance.

I didn’t agree with Rowe at LCB, but I understood why he went with it.  I very much suspect the dilemma without Mawson or Baker is who is sacrificed to play LCB.  In some respects Moore at LCB has only played really badly v Norwich who are a good side.  So pick the best 3 CBs to fit a 352.

The only players to come out with any credit today were Bentley and Wells of the starters.  Mariappa solid when he came on.  Massengo too in brief minutes.  He at least tried to pass and move.

I've thought this for several games now. Our three forwards are so far apart from one another that we lack any understanding / partnerships between them. With this system that would be fine if our midfielders were 'bombing' through the gaps (ala Nagy on Wednesday night) but that isn't happening. Therefore we end up taking pot shots from impossible angles or running into trouble and losing the ball cheaply.

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Bentley

Mariappa Kalas Moore

Hunt Bakinson Rowe

O Dowda Brunt

Diedhou Wells

 

Subs Nagy for O Dowda (60 mins)

Semenyo and Martin for Diedhou and Wells. (70 mins)

That keeps things as fresh as we can at the moment but still asking a lot of Rowe who has played a lot of games and then has to play the left wing back tough role.

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14 hours ago, AshtonGreat said:

I like Semenyo, he always looks lively and I think once he gets a goal under his belt he will start to bang a few in. (I didn't see the game today, so can't comment on his performance.) I'd much rather see Martin dropped - I don't rate him that highly

Dream on! I have a box of matches in my kitchen drawer that will complete more strikes this season than Semenyo.

He is not a natural striker. He tries to smash the ball when he should be placing it. And placing it when he should be smashing it. Heading is good but as he is using the "Marvin Elliott" method, the ball goes everywhere except where it should go.

I admire his work rate and enthusiasm but goals are not part of his repertoire. 

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2 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Dream on! I have a box of matches in my kitchen drawer that will complete more strikes this season than Semenyo.

He is not a natural striker. He tries to smash the ball when he should be placing it. And placing it when he should be smashing it. Heading is good but as he is using the "Marvin Elliott" method, the ball goes everywhere except where it should go.

I admire his work rate and enthusiasm but goals are not part of his repertoire. 

Trouble is, we've only got two natural strikers in the squad - Diedhou and Wells. And neither of them are exactly prolific

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We can argue or debate all day who will replace who but doesnt it make you laugh that Lj was always criticised on this mini-group of City fans for 'Not knowing his best 11' for 'chopping and changing' and for running the 'LJ Lottery' YET we seem to be happy to debate any number of changes Deano can make as if it is all fine to dmake sweeping changes. Ok, we have injuries (LJ always had this to deal with and a much smaller competitive squad) and Ok we have two games a week (LJ alwyas had this with cup runs etc) but the hypocracy really is amusing.

I'd like those on here who wanted Lj out put up their hands! Keep those hands up if you wanted Hughton (ha ha he'll have cost a mint and taken Forest down!). Keep you hands up if you are being fair in your criticism and praise for all 3 managers.

Yesterday was a bad day at the office which every manager suffers from. It's how we bounce back on Tuesday that DH will be judged; so far he has done well with this aspect of management/coaching, let's hope he continues this on Tuiesday however many changes he makes (the juggler!)

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3-5-2 feels like it could be worth reconsidering but I worry about a few aspects.

Mariappa. He's 34, will this inhibit our opportunities in terms of the higher line, high press?

Rowe at LWB. Really like Rowe but again that higher line, that outlet. Wingbacks need to be super fit and again, over 30?

Do Millwall not have an emphasis on width or am I a bit behind the times tactically with them? 2 v 1 again a possible risk though having said that, superiority for us in central areas might well unbalance them.

Feels a bit of a must win though, 10 without for them now!

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9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

But I’m adamant (and happy to be wrong) that the more players we play centrally the better we are, the closer our units are likely to play together....and the more likely we are to see a performance.

I've said on a few occasions, we have to get Wells central. Those little half chances, nock downs or ricochets , he's the one that will be bright enough and alive enough to nick those goals. That is the difference between no points nd one , or one point and three. Totally agree Dave.

 

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I didn’t agree with Rowe at LCB, but I understood why he went with it.  I very much suspect the dilemma without Mawson or Baker is who is sacrificed to play LCB.

As a right footed player (no great level) I played down the left at times. Further forward I found fairly easy, the further back you go, being put under pressure on your weak foot is far more telling. You'd know better than me, but I think that's the reason for going to a 4. In a 3 Moore struggled, and he seems happy to use his left. We don't have anyone that looks happy in that role. In a 2 you tend to stay central more, which is easier IMO. 

5 hours ago, old_eastender said:

Yes it is. The only benefit of playing 4-3-3 is it allows Semenyo to play, BUT it means Wells out of position and does not suit Martin either. Add to that Semenyo getting worse game by game and it should be clear we need to revert to 3-5-2

I agree we're not getting the best from Wells or Martin. I feel sorry for Semenyo, one one hand he's getting games, but he's playing in a position where he get few chances and I've seen people criticising him for not scoring. It depends where Holden sees his position for the future , but as of now I'd use him as an impact sub, which he looks ideal for. He also must be due a rest.

 

25 minutes ago, Henry said:

To quote a famous manager 3-5-*******-2.

We are struggling with rotation, as we have no creativity to rotate in.

The only creative player we are missing, in real terms, is Pato. It means COD has to play unless you give HNM a go. Pato wan't playing well when he got his niggle, but we certainly miss the option.  
The 3-5-2, which we could try with Mariappa's experience at LCB, would probably mean needing Nagy, Bakinson & COD carrying on. But I'd tweak it to a 3-4-1-2 and get COD more in a No10 role. If he beats the press, or goes on one of his runs, he would be straight onto their back line. Plus we could have two players closer to Martin/Fam which makes it easier to use those balls played to the "big man".

Dreaming of a sunnier, COVID free future (at least Vaccine'd up), Baker training on grass, Mawson back in Bristol and the imaginary fantasy football pairing of Williams and Walsh, we could have a decent looking team and bench come the end of Jan.

                            Bentley

        Kalas         Mawson      Baker

Hunt   Williams             Walsh          DaSilva

                         Paterson

              Wells                 Martin

SUBs
Semenyo, Bakinson, COD, Fam, Vyner, Moore, Rowe, Nagy, HNM.

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12 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I've said on a few occasions, we have to get Wells central. Those little half chances, nock downs or ricochets , he's the one that will be bright enough and alive enough to nick those goals. That is the difference between no points nd one , or one point and three. Totally agree Dave.

 

As a right footed player (no great level) I played down the left at times. Further forward I found fairly easy, the further back you go, being put under pressure on your weak foot is far more telling. You'd know better than me, but I think that's the reason for going to a 4. In a 3 Moore struggled, and he seems happy to use his left. We don't have anyone that looks happy in that role. In a 2 you tend to stay central more, which is easier IMO. 

I agree we're not getting the best from Wells or Martin. I feel sorry for Semenyo, one one hand he's getting games, but he's playing in a position where he get few chances and I've seen people criticising him for not scoring. It depends where Holden sees his position for the future , but as of now I'd use him as an impact sub, which he looks ideal for. He also must be due a rest.

 

The only creative player we are missing, in real terms, is Pato. It means COD has to play unless you give HNM a go. Pato wan't playing well when he got his niggle, but we certainly miss the option.  
The 3-5-2, which we could try with Mariappa's experience at LCB, would probably mean needing Nagy, Bakinson & COD carrying on. But I'd tweak it to a 3-4-1-2 and get COD more in a No10 role. If he beats the press, or goes on one of his runs, he would be straight onto their back line. Plus we could have two players closer to Martin/Fam which makes it easier to use those balls played to the "big man".

Dreaming of a sunnier, COVID free future (at least Vaccine'd up), Baker training on grass, Mawson back in Bristol and the imaginary fantasy football pairing of Williams and Walsh, we could have a decent looking team and bench come the end of Jan.

                            Bentley

        Kalas         Mawson      Baker

Hunt   Williams             Walsh          DaSilva

                         Paterson

              Wells                 Martin

SUBs
Semenyo, Bakinson, COD, Fam, Vyner, Moore, Rowe, Nagy, HNM.

We started the season with Pato, Walsh, Eilasson and Palmer in the squad. You’d never play 4 at once, but that’s 4 players who could come in and provide a spark.

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9 minutes ago, Henry said:

We started the season with Pato, Walsh, Eilasson and Palmer in the squad. You’d never play 4 at once, but that’s 4 players who could come in and provide a spark.

Can't really bring in any of those players at the moment. One's left, one's on loan and 2 are injured. 
 

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14 hours ago, Garland-sweden said:

Not so many options but COD and Bakinson gotta have a rest. As another fan said: play the youngsters.

I thought Bakinson was a youngster?  And hasn’t he had two games back?

Play the youngsters, they lose, and usual keyboard warriors come on here and rip the whole team to shreds.  Great idea.

I struggle to think of a more soul-destroying place than OTIB after we have lost a game.  

 

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6 minutes ago, Henry said:

That was my point...I believe that’s why we are struggling at times and playing poor football, even when we win.

Can't play players we haven't got, so we have to forget the likes of Palmer (for now), Morrell, Eliasson and the injured players. I haven't agreed with a few decisions `Holden's made, but until we can field some of the injured players I think we have to just get on with it. 
We have to hope Paterson can get over his niggle soon, and hope that Bakinson can refund his spark. I've not enjoyed our pragmatic approach to games, try and be solid for a half and try and nick it doesn't lead to attractive football, but there are reasons. 

It's not just injuries IMO, but the timing. We already had Baker and Mawson injured when Kalas missed a couple of games. From then we seemed to want to hold what we started with and try and nick something. We were missing Williams & Walsh, Bakinson comes in does well and then misses games. It's injury on injury and it's brought us to this point. I don't see change until players come back in. I hope then we will see a more expansive , dominant City.

I do worry that our problem keeping possession, which was the same under Johnson , will not be an easy fix though.

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16 hours ago, AshtonGreat said:

I like Semenyo, he always looks lively and I think once he gets a goal under his belt he will start to bang a few in. (I didn't see the game today, so can't comment on his performance.) I'd much rather see Martin dropped - I don't rate him that highly

I think we all like him and want him to do well but he was way off yesterday. needs a rest. I worry about his decision making as well but hopefully a goal or two will sort him out. 

trouble is we don't have many options.... Millwall will have seen that game yesterday and they will do exactly the same and if we can't beat the press and if we can't stand up to them we will get the same result. 

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4 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

I've thought this for several games now. Our three forwards are so far apart from one another that we lack any understanding / partnerships between them. With this system that would be fine if our midfielders were 'bombing' through the gaps (ala Nagy on Wednesday night) but that isn't happening. Therefore we end up taking pot shots from impossible angles or running into trouble and losing the ball cheaply.

It was one of my fears of the constant clamour for 433.  We aren’t Liverpool, we don’t play a pattern of play like they do, our players don’t try to play like Liverpool.  One of their plans is for Firminho to drag the CB short and Mane make out-to-in runs.  We don’t do that.  Instead we play as 3 individuals strung across the pitch.

A classic example of formation not being the be-all and end-all.

As you say, got to play as little partnerships.

In our rather immature way of playing 433 if you were an opponent head-coach I think it would be pretty easy to create a game-plan to overcome it.

Simplistically:

  • fullbacks, mark Wells and Semenyo
  • centre back1, Mark Martin or Diedhiou as tight as you like
  • centre back2, cover CB1 and full-backs if they don’t get support

4 defenders marking 3 forwards in our 433 is as basic as it gets.

Now if you said, let’s drop one of the three forwards, and perhaps play them as a No10 type, then that suddenly creates a problem.  Do you go man-for-man with your two CBs?  Does one of the full-backs have to tuck-in?  Who is gonna pick up the no10?  You disrupt the opposition defensive set up.  Don’t get me wrong there are compromises to, but our 433 is not being utilised in an effective way.

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

3-5-2 feels like it could be worth reconsidering but I worry about a few aspects.

Mariappa. He's 34, will this inhibit our opportunities in terms of the higher line, high press?

Rowe at LWB. Really like Rowe but again that higher line, that outlet. Wingbacks need to be super fit and again, over 30?

Do Millwall not have an emphasis on width or am I a bit behind the times tactically with them? 2 v 1 again a possible risk though having said that, superiority for us in central areas might well unbalance them.

Feels a bit of a must win though, 10 without for them now!

Mariappa doesn’t look like he’s lost too much pace....and high line isn’t totally about pace, it’s about organising and putting pressure on the passer.  If Mariappa and Vyner / Moore are the markers, and Kalas the spare man, I think you can play pretty high.

26 minutes ago, Aaron-Bcfc said:

I can count on one hand the amount of games this season where we’ve attempted any sort of high press, no matter what system we play.

I agree.  We are not a high press team by default.  We might press if the trigger is there, but generally early season the press came as the ball came into midfield.

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13 hours ago, Davefevs said:

It all depends how you support him.

As I’ve often said, one up top isn’t defensive, just as three forwards isn’t necessarily attacking either.  It’s about how everyone plays.

But I’m adamant (and happy to be wrong) that the more players we play centrally the better we are, the closer our units are likely to play together....and the more likely we are to see a performance.

I agree entirely. Playing him as a two means that someone is constantly close to him to profit from his hold up ability. Unfortunately, when we play with a front three, Semenyo and Wells are just a bit too far away from him and he can’t really get the ball to them before a defender knicks it off him, as he isn’t necessarily the quickest either.  Fam on the other hand when he does get the ball up top has a bit more pace to push the ball out from his feet (even if sometimes he has a pinball day) and spread it wide etc. 

I’m surprised we didn’t go for a back three with Taylor Moore yesterday. It would have given us a bit more height and protection at set pieces. As well as this, Taylor is capable of bringing the ball out of defence and drawing opposition players towards him, thus freeing up space. Space to attack into is always limited against Rotherham, this certainly would have opened up some pockets for our attackers to move into. 

 

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4 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

I agree entirely. Playing him as a two means that someone is constantly close to him to profit from his hold up ability. Unfortunately, when we play with a front three, Semenyo and Wells are just a bit too far away from him and he can’t really get the ball to them before a defender knicks it off him, as he isn’t necessarily the quickest either.  Fam on the other hand when he does get the ball up top has a bit more pace to push the ball out from his feet (even if sometimes he has a pinball day) and spread it wide etc. 

I’m surprised we didn’t go for a back three with Taylor Moore yesterday. It would have given us a bit more height and protection at set pieces. As well as this, Taylor is capable of bringing the ball out of defence and drawing opposition players towards him, thus freeing up space. Space to attack into is always limited against Rotherham, this certainly would have opened up some pockets for our attackers to move into. 

 

??????

The other point about about playing a two is....that if your defenders are under a bit of pressure or not very accurate with their passing, they have a greater margin for error if there are two up top to hit.

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None of us have the necessary information on which players are carrying knocks or which ones are suffering clear signs of fatigue  to make a call on which players will be rotated but it’s pretty obvious that there will be changes.

We just don’t know what they’ll be.

Bear in mind that Millwall have a similar style of play to Rotherham I’d expect to Moore, Vyner, Kalas and Mariappa ( assuming he’s fit ) to start.

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

It was one of my fears of the constant clamour for 433.  We aren’t Liverpool, we don’t play a pattern of play like they do, our players don’t try to play like Liverpool.  One of their plans is for Firminho to drag the CB short and Mane make out-to-in runs.  We don’t do that.  Instead we play as 3 individuals strung across the pitch.

A classic example of formation not being the be-all and end-all.

As you say, got to play as little partnerships.

In our rather immature way of playing 433 if you were an opponent head-coach I think it would be pretty easy to create a game-plan to overcome it.

Simplistically:

  • fullbacks, mark Wells and Semenyo
  • centre back1, Mark Martin or Diedhiou as tight as you like
  • centre back2, cover CB1 and full-backs if they don’t get support

4 defenders marking 3 forwards in our 433 is as basic as it gets.

Now if you said, let’s drop one of the three forwards, and perhaps play them as a No10 type, then that suddenly creates a problem.  Do you go man-for-man with your two CBs?  Does one of the full-backs have to tuck-in?  Who is gonna pick up the no10?  You disrupt the opposition defensive set up.  Don’t get me wrong there are compromises to, but our 433 is not being utilised in an effective way.

Mariappa doesn’t look like he’s lost too much pace....and high line isn’t totally about pace, it’s about organising and putting pressure on the passer.  If Mariappa and Vyner / Moore are the markers, and Kalas the spare man, I think you can play pretty high.

I agree.  We are not a high press team by default.  We might press if the trigger is there, but generally early season the press came as the ball came into midfield.

Perhaps it wouldn't be so bad in a back 3, but I do have the bad memory of Williams vs Watkins on New Years Day- Williams clearly had lost pace by the time and probably before he joined us tbh.

I hope my fears on that score are misplaced anyway.

On the 4-3-3 or our variant of it, agree and it's worse than that- Wells in particular out wide, leaves us open to 2 v 1 IMO. Semenyo can play wider right but Wells on the left- if Paterson was fit I wouldn't mind him as the nominal guy on the left, perhaps Semenyo right and one of Martin or Wells in the middle- if he isn't, could O'Dowda play on the left in a variant? At least you'd have a bit more balance then.

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46 minutes ago, Abraham Romanovich said:

Frankie Fielding did well to find the pitch.

I understood the professional “angle” on this tactic, but it was completely negated by the execution.  Trying to hit a 60 yard ball onto a handkerchief was futile.  As a home team it stifled momentum and atmosphere.  Bonkers.

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