End of year meltdown underway?

[Shuffle]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Do you know what, doing was Rotherham preview was hard work.  From watching highlights, video etc, the only things I could actually see was:

- balls into Smith

- early crosses

- players happy to load forward in their small amounts of possession 

I was actually worried there was more more to their game than I had seen, and I do take pride in trying to get a good feel as to how they play.

Seriously though, those 3 things were it (other than hardworking physicality and desire).  How could we be so shell shocked by what presented itself.

 

You might as well copy and paste that on Tuesday night when Matt Smith terrorises us in the air Fevs

[chinapig]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m pretty much in the middle on LJ as a head-coach, good and bad, but have openly admitted that his Brent-isms push me on the negative side.

If LJ really thought he was being sold down the river by Ashton, then he should’ve had the balls to confront that issue.  He has enough confidence in his own ability, and therefore why wouldn’t you back yourself either in a showdown with SL about MA, or to go and get a job somewhere else if it goes the wrong way.

I’m not exonerating MA, and think they fed each each other’s egos....and are both to blame for some very poor recruitment (some good too).

I would suggest that there would only been one winner as MA is very much SL's man because he has delivered big money sales. That's what he is good at and what SL wants most. Though post Covid that well might run dry.

Of course LJ should have shown more guts but he would not be the first employee to toe the company line to keep his job!

Either way I argue that the CEO should not be in charge of recruitment. There are parallels with e.g. West Ham, where one of the owners used to decide until Moyes got his way, or Man Utd, who first said they were looking for a DoF about 18 months ago but where Woodward still pulls the strings with no appointment in sight.

Not the way to run a club imo.

[Bris Red]

17 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Quite so, the strategy is a financial one not a footballing one. SL's stated aim is to become self sustaining, though I doubt that is possible for a Championship club of our size.

That's a fair enough strategy, though it needs a Head Coach who is prepared to live with it. Just don't pretend the aim is something else.

As much as SL seems to be coming across as more and more of a dithering old fool as the years go on he certainly isn’t stupid and is a shrewd as they come.. He is more than prepared to lead the fanbase on with false promises if it means we sell season tickets. The problem is the fanbase will only keep lapping it up for so long IMO. I for one am getting sick and tired of seeing him spout that the aim is Premier League football and at least a top 6 finish when year in year out we fail to produce.

[Mr Popodopolous]

49 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Quite so, the strategy is a financial one not a footballing one. SL's stated aim is to become self sustaining, though I doubt that is possible for a Championship club of our size.

That's a fair enough strategy, though it needs a Head Coach who is prepared to live with it. Just don't pretend the aim is something else.

Only if we're prepared to yoyo like Barnsley have a few times, or like Luton and Rotherham maybe contenders for. I think Wycombe are too small a club to fall into the yoyoing.

Most clubs sustaining at this level will lose money, over time- it's just a question of the size of the losses!

26 minutes ago, bris red said:

As much as SL seems to be coming across as more and more of a dithering old fool as the years go on he certainly isn’t stupid and is a shrewd as they come.. He is more than prepared to lead the fanbase on with false promises if it means we sell season tickets. The problem is the fanbase will only keep lapping it up for so long IMO. I for one am getting sick and tired of seeing him spout that the aim is Premier League football and at least a top 6 finish when year in year out we fail to produce.

£39m losses over 3 years rolling plus allowable costs- the possibility, though this is still unclear, of in-season sanctions- it's a problem!

Could we push towards the higher end of that £39m possibly? Well yes- but if we're on a bad trajectory and it's £15m-39m- greater than the former but less than the latter, the EFL can step in- not for points deductions etc but they can have words, negotiate over a Business Plan.

Something, incidentally I'm not entirely sure we were clear of this Summer. I still wonder occasionally if we were/are still working to some kind of arrangement, for this season anyway!

Owing to the rejig of FFP due to Covid, our £25m loss that should have dropped off this season- is still on the books. It goes £25m - allowables,  £10m - allowables and then the average of last and this season, factoring in the allowables of course. 

I forgot to add, for this and last season only, losses directly attributable to Covid will also be excluded from the losses. Which is good.

As it happens there will be significant headroom come summer 2021, not only due to the shift from a starting point of £25m down to £10m up- may not be precise figures but in that ballpark, but lots of players out of contract in the summer.

[Davefevs]

18 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I would suggest that there would only been one winner as MA is very much SL's man because he has delivered big money sales. That's what he is good at and what SL wants most. Though post Covid that well might run dry.

Of course LJ should have shown more guts but he would not be the first employee to toe the company line to keep his job!

Either way I argue that the CEO should not be in charge of recruitment. There are parallels with e.g. West Ham, where one of the owners used to decide until Moyes got his way, or Man Utd, who first said they were looking for a DoF about 18 months ago but where Woodward still pulls the strings with no appointment in sight.

Not the way to run a club imo.

Completely agree.

He’s a football administrator....square pegs....where have we heard that before.

[SouthS22]

41 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I wasn’t being critical of you post by the way.  I think attitude was a lot to do with it yesterday and poor attitude at that.

Holden got minus marks from me yesterday.  The half-time changes seemed to be about changing the way we played, but I think the first thing was to stop Rotherham having it all their own way.

No, I think you’re right to a large extent.  Yes, attitude was not great, perhaps they turned up expecting an easier game.  Definitely a fail this time from management and coaches though for me - in this, in preparation for the way Rotherham would play, and in the failure to change it when it was clear after 5 mins that we were getting  overrun everywhere.  Hoping for lessons learned for Tuesday, that we set up better and that Deano gives them a rocket before kick off.   

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Completely agree.

He’s a football administrator....square pegs....where have we heard that before.

Have the signings been that bad though, as a whole? Injuries notwithstanding of which there have been plenty!

LJ may not have liked some of them, and yes there were some notable wastes of money- and again some who were rather injury prone to say the least, but ability wise to me it doesn't matter too much who signs them whether it's manager or agent- I think our squad has decent ability, has had decent ability. Is our recruitment brilliant, top class? No. Is it good enough when reasonable fitness to push for top 6? I'd say so.

[Numero Uno]

30 minutes ago, bris red said:

As much as SL seems to be coming across as more and more of a dithering old fool as the years go on he certainly isn’t stupid and is a shrewd as they come.. He is more than prepared to lead the fanbase on with false promises if it means we sell season tickets. The problem is the fanbase will only keep lapping it up for so long IMO. I for one am getting sick and tired of seeing him spout that the aim is Premier League football and at least a top 6 finish when year in year out we fail to produce.

It’s always going to be the “aim” but how serious that aim is can only be measured by the actions. The appointment of Holden in the first place together with the tools he has been given tell me that the aim is more in hope than expectation.

That is why, in my view, we have to give Holden a fair crack of the whip as fans..........because the ownership does not want to employ a proven manager who will demand the funds needed to get the job done. That is indisputable, they had the chance to get a proven manager in with a track record and they passed on it. That isn’t Dean’s fault.

[Robbored]

39 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Either way I argue that the CEO should not be in charge of recruitment. There are parallels with e.g. West Ham, where one of the owners used to decide until Moyes got his way, or Man Utd, who first said they were looking for a DoF about 18 months ago but where Woodward still pulls the strings with no appointment in sight.

Not the way to run a club imo.

Having heard MA speak at Senior Reds two or three times he’s been asked about recruitment at City and he categorically stated that he and LJ work very closely together on it but ultimately it’s the managers decision on whether to sign them. I imagine the same set up applies under Holden - unless the goal posts have been changed.

MA himself does the negotiations on any incoming or outgoing deals.

Does that put MA in charge of recruitment?

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Have the signings been that bad though, as a whole? Injuries notwithstanding of which there have been plenty!

LJ may not have liked some of them, and yes there were some notable wastes of money- and again some who were rather injury prone to say the least, but ability wise to me it doesn't matter too much who signs them whether it's manager or agent- I think our squad has decent ability, has had decent ability. Is our recruitment brilliant, top class? No. Is it good enough when reasonable fitness to push for top 6? I'd say so.

Its been very....mixed.  I don’t expect every transfer to work out either.

I don’t think we’ve done as well with the money brought in as we should’ve.  That’s all.

The first team head-coach should never have a first team player he doesn’t authorise.

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, AshtonGreat said:

It's not that bad

It’s not great. Mawson is a huge miss. The one defender we have who would have dealt with yesterday, Baker, has not played a game yet this season.

We have a car crash of a midfield and brought in a player specifically to address it who is yet to tie his laces up for the club. We have two midfield players that can get you a goal, one carrying an injury that has to be managed the other one kaput for the season.

We brought in a right back to spread the load and he has been out for weeks. We are now down to sticking the likes of Sam Bell and Opi Edward’s on the pitch to try and change things atm.

It’s not an average injury situation imo.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Its been very....mixed.  I don’t expect every transfer to work out either.

I don’t think we’ve done as well with the money brought in as we should’ve.  That’s all.

The first team head-coach should never have a first team player he doesn’t authorise.

Been mixed yep- would argue LJ also failed to get the best out of a number.

Varying reasons for this of course- injuries seemed a feature then too, that was one aspect.

I'd be interested to see how it works now- if it's manager/head coach always gets the final say, maybe the game is shifting that way a bit.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

It’s not great. Mawson is a huge miss. The one defender we have who would have dealt with yesterday, Baker, has not played a game yet this season.

We have a car crash of a midfield and brought in a player specifically to address it who is yet to tie his laces up for the club. We have two midfield players that can get you a goal, one carrying an injury that has to be managed the other one kaput for the season.

We brought in a right back to spread the load and he has been out for weeks. We are now down to sticking the likes of Sam Bell and Opi Edward’s on the pitch to try and change things atm.

It’s not an average injury situation imo.

Bit harsh- Nagy has shown much better form in recent weeks, Bakinson is still young of course, but seems to started to emerge- Massengo however, he has regressed or stalled but our midfield options are certainly thin centrally atm.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Been mixed yep- would argue LJ also failed to get the best out of a number.

Varying reasons for this of course- injuries seemed a feature then too, that was one aspect.

I'd be interested to see how it works now- if it's manager/head coach always gets the final say, maybe the game is shifting that way a bit.

We’ve been told the head-coach has the ultimate say many many times.  That’s why I don’t buy MA has signed players over LJ’s head.  If LJ ever comes out (in his 5 book warts and all tales) and says MA bought him players he didn’t want, I will think even less of him.  Happy to pick the team with his daughters life at stake, but happy to let MA choose the players to buy for £50m+ (or whatever it is).  I just don’t buy the black and white of it.

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Bit harsh- Nagy has shown much better form in recent weeks, Bakinson is still young of course, but seems to have come on quite well- Massengo has regressed or stalled but our midfield options are certainly thin centrally atm.

Nagy - agreed. Bakinson is a huge plus but is not the finished article and has also missed games leaving us with two of Brunt, O’Dowda and Paterson to line up alongside Nagy. That just isn’t a mid table Championship midfield let alone top 6 and isn’t a midfield that Holden would choose out of choice either.

Where are the goals in our midfield? Nagy is a two per season player, Bakinson similar and O’Dowda seemingly a big fat zero.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Nagy - agreed. Bakinson is a huge plus but is not the finished article and has also missed games leaving us with two of Brunt, O’Dowda and Paterson to line up alongside Nagy. That just isn’t a mid table Championship midfield let alone top 6 and isn’t a midfield that Holden would choose out of choice either.

Where are the goals in our midfield? Nagy is a two per season player, Bakinson similar and O’Dowda seemingly a big fat zero.

Paterson I think can contribute some end product, but while he's out...distinct lack of goals for sure.

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Paterson I think can contribute some end product, but while he's out...distinct lack of goals for sure.

Yeah, I was referring to Paterson and Weimann as the two who do score goals from that area. Both injured!! You realise when he’s not playing that Paterson is key to us scoring goals.

[Northern Red]

43 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We’ve been told the head-coach has the ultimate say many many times.  That’s why I don’t buy MA has signed players over LJ’s head.  If LJ ever comes out (in his 5 book warts and all tales) and says MA bought him players he didn’t want, I will think even less of him.  Happy to pick the team with his daughters life at stake, but happy to let MA choose the players to buy for £50m+ (or whatever it is).  I just don’t buy the black and white of it.

It was interesting that our business this summer was all British-based and proven at this level, for the first time in years. No punts from lower league or abroad.

[reddoh]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

It’s why I stayed off last night.

I always stay off after a loss too much negativity, no taking positives around.

[Merrick's Marvels]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Do you know what, doing was Rotherham preview was hard work.  From watching highlights, video etc, the only things I could actually see was:

- balls into Smith

- early crosses

- players happy to load forward in their small amounts of possession 

I was actually worried there was more more to their game than I had seen, and I do take pride in trying to get a good feel as to how they play.

Seriously though, those 3 things were it (other than hardworking physicality and desire).  How could we be so shell shocked by what presented itself.

 

Because we've  gone from a coach who overthinks everything, including how the opposition  play, to one who seems to do little more than pick a formation and then tell them to run around a lot.

That said, the individual errors in basic marking that allowed Rotherham 2 goals can't be the fault of anyone except the players themselves. 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

2 hours ago, bris red said:

As much as SL seems to be coming across as more and more of a dithering old fool 

Give three examples of "dithering old fool".

I'm calling you out on this statement and I'll be very interested in your justification.

[Sheltons Army]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

We’ve been told the head-coach has the ultimate say many many times.  That’s why I don’t buy MA has signed players over LJ’s head.  If LJ ever comes out (in his 5 book warts and all tales) and says MA bought him players he didn’t want, I will think even less of him.  Happy to pick the team with his daughters life at stake, but happy to let MA choose the players to buy for £50m+ (or whatever it is).  I just don’t buy the black and white of it.

Nor do I , not for one moment , despite the allegations or suspicions of some

 

What MA is guilty of is allowing LJ to keep buying off plan , the newest shiny toy , then a shinier one , discard the other one.......

 

Wells is a perfect example ..... no mug but LJ suddenly interested after Wells most productive half season , no deep thought about his pros and cons , or how to utilise him.... he just screamed ‘Buy me’ to Lee at the time

 

I couldn’t believe the hype on here when we signed him , he’s decent but not what some thought or hoped he might be - understandable over hype from supporters , the head coach less so

We could have invested that money in a up and coming forward or saved the money and tried to squeeze some more out The budget and put in a decent bid for Toney , just for example 

He was what I regard as a ‘lazy buy’

[Red Shadow]

55 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Because we've  gone from a coach who overthinks everything, including how the opposition  play, to one who seems to do little more than pick a formation and then tell them to run around a lot.

That said, the individual errors in basic marking that allowed Rotherham 2 goals can't be the fault of anyone except the players themselves. 

This. Do we have a real leader on the pitch, one who organises and who the team respond to? I think not.

[Jeez]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

If so, he also had a head-coach who was happy to take these players.  Why didn’t LJ just do a Grange Hill and “just say no”, why not tell SL “it’s me or him” if that’s the case.

Thats the big question for me that won’t let me accept it’s all MA’s fault.

To my mind it’s too convenient an argument.

@Harry
In which case that supports the rationale of hiring younger malleable coaches who are delighted to have the opportunity and will agree with MA’s recruitment - they know they won’t get the chance to manage elsewhere at this level.

May explain why the rigorous & vigorous interview process yielded the outcome that it did.

[Jeez]

Despite the awful performance yesterday and that we haven’t been playing well, there’s more grit this season and is the reason why we’ve reached the league position we have.

For that reason I don’t see the meltdown the OP suggests but mixed results until we’re at full strength.

[Red Skin]

We're doing ok given injuries and the fact we have a new coaching team.

I was disappointed with Kalas giving away a free kick so early in that position and it was always gonna be hard going from 1-0 down.   We generally looked tired and lacked energy.

Vyner is learning and will make mistakes, but have been good .   Semenyo will blow a bit hot and cold.  Bakinson won't always dominate a midfield and is still rusty from his lay off, but I am enjoying watching them all get game time and mostly do well.

I don't hold with chucking all the strikers on so early in the game, when what we needed is better supply.  Would have preferred to see Opi Edwards on earlier and to keep our shape with Famara replacing Martin (who needs a break).

It can be frustrating but I am enjoying the season so far.  We would need to improve dramatically (perhaps with players coming back) to challenge for promotion.  

Still want to see O'Dowda and Semenyo in a front three with another (ideally the pacy striker we haven't got right now) but probably Wells in his preferred striker role.  Think Nagy showed what he can do as an attacking rather than holding midfielder, so think he needs to play there. 

As things stand it's a matter of seeing who's fit and picking a formation to suit.   

[Redrascal2]

13 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Have the signings been that bad though, as a whole? Injuries notwithstanding of which there have been plenty!

LJ may not have liked some of them, and yes there were some notable wastes of money- and again some who were rather injury prone to say the least, but ability wise to me it doesn't matter too much who signs them whether it's manager or agent- I think our squad has decent ability, has had decent ability. Is our recruitment brilliant, top class? No. Is it good enough when reasonable fitness to push for top 6? I'd say so.

On the whole  yes I would say the recruitment has been bad. Look at what we have now a side with little fighting spirit that is easily bullied. And a midfield that creates little if nothing. Too many players who wait for others to do the hard graft and strikers that struggle to score on the few times they get a chance. Indeed in many games we struggle to get a shot on target. Top it off with DH and I would say we could have done a lot better.

[Northern Red]

1 minute ago, Redrascal2 said:

On the whole  yes I would say the recruitment has been bad. Look at what we have now a side with little fighting spirit that is easily bullied. And a midfield that creates little if nothing. Too many players who wait for others to do the hard graft and strikers that struggle to score on the few times they get a chance. Indeed in many games we struggle to get a shot on target. Top it off with DH and I would say we could have done a lot better.

But other than that, it's all good, right?

[Bris Red]

12 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Give three examples of "dithering old fool".

I'm calling you out on this statement and I'll be very interested in your justification.

I find he comes across this way in his public speaking - especially in recent years.You only have to look and listen to his son to realise that speaking in public is hardly a skill that runs in the Lansdown family. Not knocking steve as a businessman - fair play to the bloke for what he has achieved in that respect.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, Redrascal2 said:

On the whole  yes I would say the recruitment has been bad. Look at what we have now a side with little fighting spirit that is easily bullied. And a midfield that creates little if nothing. Too many players who wait for others to do the hard graft and strikers that struggle to score on the few times they get a chance. Indeed in many games we struggle to get a shot on target. Top it off with DH and I would say we could have done a lot better.

If you look at the performance level in the first 8, 9, perhaps 10 games this was not necessarily the case. 

Since then, things have gone south quite a bit- performance wise I mean. The two exceptions to the rule were well I think so anyway, Blackburn at home and 2nd half vs Watford. 

However the drop-off is significant.

Over the last 3-4 years we have had mixed recruitment I think. We are and have been a top 6 challenging side, I also believe that LJ when he was in charge failed to get the best out of a number of players who we signed...but at the same time we have signed too many!

That's to some extent on him though, one example we saw more of Benkovic capabilities under Holden than LJ.

We have also had recurring and rolling injuries, this is the 4th season in a row. Bad luck or what!

Our conversion rate I'd have thought is not bad actually, given the relative lack of chances. Happy to delve into the stats though.

Remember in the case of Martin and Semenyo, not many goals to say the least. However multiple assists each, 3-4 is it?