33 shots v 6

[Eddie Notgetinya]

33 shots versus a pathetic 6 in the last two games against two teams that couldn’t buy a win 

Doesn't take a genius to see why we’re losing. How can we be that poor?? I don’t mind losing but not having a go is unacceptable.

[Unan]

In the last 3 games we've had 23 shots and had 57 against us.

[Harry]

It’s almost as if playing 4 strikers doesn’t mean you’ll score goals. 

[Alex_BCFC]

We were lucky so many times - people saying the Derby result was amazing at the time etc. I could see we were getting lucky - working hard and hoping to win 1-0. We did for a few games and now they aren’t even working hard. Last 7 we have won 2 and 1 was daylight robbery at QPR. The other you could argue should have been a draw.

[Coppello]

1 minute ago, Harry said:

It’s almost as if playing 4 strikers doesn’t mean you’ll score goals. 

Good point. Maybe we should play Sam Bell up front in the next game too?

[AshtonGreat]

2 minutes ago, Harry said:

It’s almost as if playing 4 strikers doesn’t mean you’ll score goals. 

'Strikers' in the loosest sense

[Harry]

2 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

'Strikers' in the loosest sense

Basically it’s dumb as ****, naive, amateur tactics from Holden. 
“Stick another striker on and we’ll win this”. 
 

Ummmm....., anyone wanna get the ball to them Dean? 

[Globe Trotter]

5 minutes ago, Harry said:

It’s almost as if playing 4 strikers doesn’t mean you’ll score goals. 

Whatever the respective merits are of Nagy, Bakinson, HNM, Callum, Brunt they  do not score many and create very little for the strikers.

I just don’t see what the manager’s plan is in terms of how we’re going to score a goal? What is the strategy for scoring a goal with tonight’s line up...hope Wells bundles something in from a half chance or rob one from a set piece maybe. 

[Jacki]

Just now, Harry said:

Basically it’s dumb as ****, naive, amateur tactics from Holden. 
“Stick another striker on and we’ll win this”. 
 

Ummmm....., anyone wanna get the ball to them Dean? 

I was saying exactly that earlier. Every time we fall behind he just puts all the strikers on and hopes for the best.

We have no pace on the flanks, no creativity in midfield, and when the defence falls apart as it has in the last 2 games we have no chance as we just won’t score any goals playing like this.

Our Plan A appears to be to stick in games, keep it tight and try to nick a 1-0. Plan B when we go behind is whack all the strikers out there and.... er... hope for the best. It’s pretty mind numbing stuff at the moment. 

[1960maaan]

9 minutes ago, Harry said:

“Stick another striker on and we’ll win this”.

That "tactic" goes back to Johnson's days. Never works .

Can't remember the game but Holden subbed 2 strikers that hadn't been given a pass all day, and expected 2 different strikers to make a difference. Amateur hour.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Eddie Notgetinya said:

33 shots versus a pathetic 6 in the last two games against two teams that couldn’t buy a win 

Doesn't take a genius to see why we’re losing. How can we be that poor?? I don’t mind losing but not having a go is unacceptable.

But what do you suggest needs to be done to change things.  Saying “create more chances than the opposition” is not an answer!!!  How do you suggest we create more chances?

[Kodjias Wrist]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

But what do you suggest needs to be done to change things.  Saying “create more chances than the opposition” is not an answer!!!  How do you suggest we create more chances?

I think basics first. The team obviously haven't gelled we have different teamsheets all the time due to injury not the manager. They are either deflated or not motivated and I think its a mix of the two. 

To answer how to create more? Maybe retain the ball better in the middle of the pitch for a start to get confidence on the ball. We could play more direct or hoofball with Martin and Diedhou as a front two but then we don't have enough ball winners to win the second ball. Honestly its a nightmare I have no idea how we move forward. 

[Portland Bill]

We don’t shoot, because our game plan and lack of creativity, means we are unable to get the ball into shooting positions!. Literally every time we get into the opposition half ( which isn’t often) the move breaks down.

Nothing has changing in this respect for 2-3 seasons. 

[Eddie Notgetinya]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

But what do you suggest needs to be done to change things.  Saying “create more chances than the opposition” is not an answer!!!  How do you suggest we create more chances?

I haven’t said that. The football is awful and has been for a long time. I can’t recall seasons like the last two when I’ve been so bored watching almost every game. 

That team has good players in it so I can only attribute it to the coaching/game plan.

Semenyo is the only player I can think of that might shoot when he gets a half chance.

Every team that played tonight had more shots that we did. Every team had more shots than us on Saturday except Preston and Watford that equalled our pityful total of 4 (Watford won though).

I don’t have a fantastic understanding of how to set team up but what I would say is the possession based game does nothing for us, I don’t think we play well when we try to patiently open teams up like Barcelona because we arent that good and we haven’t got anyone to play those killer passes. 

[Davefevs]

Fair comment @Eddie Notgetinya

(still one of the best forum names btw)

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Portland Bill said:

We don’t shoot, because our game plan and lack of creativity, means we are unable to get the ball into shooting positions!. Literally every time we get into the opposition half ( which isn’t often) the move breaks down.

Nothing has changing in this respect for 2-3 seasons. 

Huge drop off between first 8-9, maybe 10 at a push games and since.

Stats prove this too.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Harry said:

It’s almost as if playing 4 strikers doesn’t mean you’ll score goals. 

Totally agree.

It's crowd pleasing, or perceived to be- not all that effective often though.

3 hours ago, Harry said:

Basically it’s dumb as ****, naive, amateur tactics from Holden. 
“Stick another striker on and we’ll win this”. 
 

Ummmm....., anyone wanna get the ball to them Dean? 

The supply line just begins to fail, often in any case when teams do this.

Not uncommon for quite predictable, uncoordinated play to result.

It's a ploy that wasn't even that effective that often 20 years ago so it'll definitely be suspect now- and as for Diedhiou, tactically vs big centre backs defending a two goal lead he's not going to get much joy!

[REDOXO]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

But what do you suggest needs to be done to change things.  Saying “create more chances than the opposition” is not an answer!!!  How do you suggest we create more chances?

Ok. So here is what we do

We compete in midfield and have our heads up to look forward, if In the next 29 years we win the ball in a tackle. (all of our passing is side ways). 
 

in order to find people to hit they must be moving. The static way we are playing in front of the front three/five is laughable.

we have nothing on the flanks that does one single thing to help the forwards and the one “striker” we have (as opposed to forwards)..,,Wells.., needs to be played there. 
 

I get injuries. But Johnsonesque decision making is not acceptable. 
 

Losing is a thing. But losing looking like St Mary Redcliffe U15 reserves is not a thing. 

Woman up and play. If we lose most can take it. Lose playing like tossers is not. 

[bearded_red]

10 hours ago, Harry said:

It’s almost as if playing 4 strikers doesn’t mean you’ll score goals. 

I’ve stolen this off Twitter, but they’re not wrong are they.

[Davefevs]

10 hours ago, REDOXO said:

Ok. So here is what we do

We compete in midfield and have our heads up to look forward, if In the next 29 years we win the ball in a tackle. (all of our passing is side ways). 
 

in order to find people to hit they must be moving. The static way we are playing in front of the front three/five is laughable.

we have nothing on the flanks that does one single thing to help the forwards and the one “striker” we have (as opposed to forwards)..,,Wells.., needs to be played there. 
 

I get injuries. But Johnsonesque decision making is not acceptable. 
 

Losing is a thing. But losing looking like St Mary Redcliffe U15 reserves is not a thing. 

Woman up and play. If we lose most can take it. Lose playing like tossers is not. 

On the Forever Bristol pod last night I gave a crap analogy of some of our movement being like a rubber band, when I was poorly trying to describe cause and effect.

If we take one situation last night, a situation that happened quite a number if times, it probably sums up why we struggled to get the ball through the lines.  In effect picture in your heads Taylor Moore having just received a pass from Kalas and is 10 yards insides our half, right side of centre.

If you could lift up and place our players into positions relative to the positions of Millwall’s players, you would end up moving virtually every player who was ahead of the ball.  That can’t be right can it?  In effect, they were in the wrong places, nobody / not enough players were providing (good) angles for passes, nobody was moving to shift Millwall players out of their good positioning to block passing lanes or create space.  Credit to Millwall for their discipline and hard work, but poor by us.

We must learn to play against the halfway line press (it’s not a high press).  It reminded me of Boro at home, apart from we were better that night because we had better / fitter players on the pitch (Mawson, Weimann, Paterson).

I’m not picking on Nagy, just using him as an example.  In the situation we’ve pictured above, where would we normally expect him to be?  Within 10 yards of Moore with an angle to receive the ball.  Where was he?  Running forward in a straight line between Moore and Martin, 30 yards away from Moore, 10 yards away from Martin.  What problems does that cause?

• Moore cannot pass to Nagy because he’s running away from him
• Moore cannot pass to Martin because Nagy has blocked the passing lane.

One Millwall player can now pressure Moore because he can block the pass to either Nagy or Martin.  That player is also able to get close to an inside pass to an already marked Bakinson to create a two-man press or an outside pass to an already marked Hunt, and create a two-man press there also.

Not all Nagy’s fault though.  Other players positions aren’t right too.  Hunt is in a position where if he gets it, he can only go back or risk a dangerous pass infield to Kalas.

I don’t have the answers apart from we need to work harder off the ball to give options.

Even with all of that if we then mis-control it it’s possession over anyway.

[TonyTonyTony]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

On the Forever Bristol pod last night I gave a crap analogy of some of our movement being like a rubber band, when I was poorly trying to describe cause and effect.

If we take one situation last night, a situation that happened quite a number if times, it probably sums up why we struggled to get the ball through the lines.  In effect picture in your heads Taylor Moore having just received a pass from Kalas and is 10 yards insides our half, right side of centre.

If you could lift up and place our players into positions relative to the positions of Millwall’s players, you would end up moving virtually every player who was ahead of the ball.  That can’t be right can it?  In effect, they were in the wrong places, nobody / not enough players were providing (good) angles for passes, nobody was moving to shift Millwall players out of their good positioning to block passing lanes or create space.  Credit to Millwall for their discipline and hard work, but poor by us.

We must learn to play against the halfway line press (it’s not a high press).  It reminded me of Boro at home, apart from we were better that night because we had better / fitter players on the pitch (Mawson, Weimann, Paterson).

I’m not picking on Nagy, just using him as an example.  In the situation we’ve pictured above, where would we normally expect him to be?  Within 10 yards of Moore with an angle to receive the ball.  Where was he?  Running forward in a straight line between Moore and Martin, 30 yards away from Moore, 10 yards away from Martin.  What problems does that cause?

• Moore cannot pass to Nagy because he’s running away from him
• Moore cannot pass to Martin because Nagy has blocked the passing lane.

One Millwall player can now pressure Moore because he can block the pass to either Nagy or Martin.  That player is also able to get close to an inside pass to an already marked Bakinson to create a two-man press or an outside pass to an already marked Hunt, and create a two-man press there also.

Not all Nagy’s fault though.  Other players positions aren’t right too.  Hunt is in a position where if he gets it, he can only go back or risk a dangerous pass infield to Kalas.

I don’t have the answers apart from we need to work harder off the ball to give options.

Even with all of that if we then mis-control it it’s possession over anyway.

Dave - i would give you the managers job mate.

 

You may wanna resign from OTIB though ....

[Davefevs]

55 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Dave - i would give you the managers job mate.

 

You may wanna resign from OTIB though ....

Cool, Manager, not Head-Coach, even better.

I’d stay on OTIB though, just for the craic!

[grifty]

15 hours ago, Alex_BCFC said:

We were lucky so many times - people saying the Derby result was amazing at the time etc. I could see we were getting lucky - working hard and hoping to win 1-0. We did for a few games and now they aren’t even working hard. Last 7 we have won 2 and 1 was daylight robbery at QPR. The other you could argue should have been a draw.

I agree, I don't mind not winning game 4-0 like other teams do if we get good solid team wins if 1-0, 2-1, or 2-0 sort of score lines with players giving their all, a good team shape, solid, etc. I don't expect us to have 25 shots a game with 75% possession.

There was a point in the game yesterday when the commentator and Weimann were discussing how we would get the two goals to get back for a draw. We hadn't had 2 shots on target. In the last 3 games I've actually been cheering shots on target. To me, they feel like a goal right now!

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

On the Forever Bristol pod last night I gave a crap analogy of some of our movement being like a rubber band, when I was poorly trying to describe cause and effect.

If we take one situation last night, a situation that happened quite a number if times, it probably sums up why we struggled to get the ball through the lines.  In effect picture in your heads Taylor Moore having just received a pass from Kalas and is 10 yards insides our half, right side of centre.

If you could lift up and place our players into positions relative to the positions of Millwall’s players, you would end up moving virtually every player who was ahead of the ball.  That can’t be right can it?  In effect, they were in the wrong places, nobody / not enough players were providing (good) angles for passes, nobody was moving to shift Millwall players out of their good positioning to block passing lanes or create space.  Credit to Millwall for their discipline and hard work, but poor by us.

We must learn to play against the halfway line press (it’s not a high press).  It reminded me of Boro at home, apart from we were better that night because we had better / fitter players on the pitch (Mawson, Weimann, Paterson).

I’m not picking on Nagy, just using him as an example.  In the situation we’ve pictured above, where would we normally expect him to be?  Within 10 yards of Moore with an angle to receive the ball.  Where was he?  Running forward in a straight line between Moore and Martin, 30 yards away from Moore, 10 yards away from Martin.  What problems does that cause?

• Moore cannot pass to Nagy because he’s running away from him
• Moore cannot pass to Martin because Nagy has blocked the passing lane.

One Millwall player can now pressure Moore because he can block the pass to either Nagy or Martin.  That player is also able to get close to an inside pass to an already marked Bakinson to create a two-man press or an outside pass to an already marked Hunt, and create a two-man press there also.

Not all Nagy’s fault though.  Other players positions aren’t right too.  Hunt is in a position where if he gets it, he can only go back or risk a dangerous pass infield to Kalas.

I don’t have the answers apart from we need to work harder off the ball to give options.

Even with all of that if we then mis-control it it’s possession over anyway.

Dave, I saw that very picture a number of times too, but I also saw on a good number of occasions where Nagy was coming toward Moore from a higher position, Moore played the ball in, and Nagy miscontrolled or had a really heavy touch, resulting in either a loss of possession or an immediate need to pass it straight back to the defender again. 
 

It seemed like it was our ONLY game plan. Moore to pass a 20 yard ball to Nagy. 
It was attempted numerous times with pretty much zero success and was also ‘intended’ many times but like you said Moore reneged on it as it wasn’t on. 
 

We had no other plan. It’s truly shocking football. 

[Riaz]

15 hours ago, Harry said:

Basically it’s dumb as ****, naive, amateur tactics from Holden. 
“Stick another striker on and we’ll win this”. 
 

Ummmm....., anyone wanna get the ball to them Dean? 

None of our "ball players" were on the pitch last night.

Pato, Mawson, Vyner and Dasilva all werent on the pitch. Its no wonder, we are struggling.

Three of them injured and one looked very leggy on Saturday after playing every minute so far this in the league.

How do you suggest he rectifies this?

 

 

[Harry]

6 minutes ago, Riaz said:

None of our "ball players" were on the pitch last night.

Pato, Mawson, Vyner and Dasilva all werent on the pitch. Its no wonder, we are struggling.

Three of them injured and one looked very leggy on Saturday after playing every minute so far this in the league.

How do you suggest he rectifies this?

 

 

If we’ve been wanting to compete for a playoff spot for 4 years and have spent nyon £50m and don’t have any “ball players” outside of Pato and 3 defenders, then we are absolutely buggered!!! Recruitment would need to be seriously called into question. 
 

Of course, the injuries are hitting us hard, but the answer to any problems we have isn’t to have a back 4 of O’Dowda, Rowe, Moore, Hunt, a midfield of HNM, Bakinson and then 4 up front in Martin, Wells, Fam & Sem. 
 

That to me looks like a set of players sent out to be able to say to the fans “look, I’m playing 4 strikers, we’re wanting to play attacking football, like I promised”. 
 

Someone needs to inform Dean and his so say highly respected coaches that 4-2-4 won’t work in the modern game, and we’re not living in the 1930’s when teams would regularly have 4 or 5 up front. Unless he’s some kind of tactical revolutionary and he’s bringing back the 3-2-5 formation of the 1880’s - maybe he’s got his eye on the inside-half from Engineers or the outside-left at Old Carthusians! 

[Harry]

21 minutes ago, Riaz said:

None of our "ball players" were on the pitch last night.

Pato, Mawson, Vyner and Dasilva all werent on the pitch. Its no wonder, we are struggling.

Three of them injured and one looked very leggy on Saturday after playing every minute so far this in the league.

How do you suggest he rectifies this?

 

 

Further to my earlier reply, I realise I didn’t answer the question directly. So here goes. 
 

What could he have done? 
Ok, since he’s set his stall out to play this 3-5-2, how the hell did he end up with a 4-2-4. 
 

On those last set of subs, he could’ve easily stuck with his favoured formation. He had 2 centre backs on the bench. He could’ve had :

Vyner-Moore-Towler at the back. 
Hunt & Rowe still as the wing backs. 
Bakinson holding the DM. 
HNM & COD as the 2 attacking CM’s. 
Fam & Wells/Sem up top. 
 

Quite why he had to bring Rowe in from LWB to CB, put Cod as a LB and have 4 strikers on, I’ll never know. 

[Riaz]

7 minutes ago, Harry said:

If we’ve been wanting to compete for a playoff spot for 4 years and have spent nyon £50m and don’t have any “ball players” outside of Pato and 3 defenders, then we are absolutely buggered!!! Recruitment would need to be seriously called into question. 
 

Of course, the injuries are hitting us hard, but the answer to any problems we have isn’t to have a back 4 of O’Dowda, Rowe, Moore, Hunt, a midfield of HNM, Bakinson and then 4 up front in Martin, Wells, Fam & Sem. 
 

That to me looks like a set of players sent out to be able to say to the fans “look, I’m playing 4 strikers, we’re wanting to play attacking football, like I promised”. 
 

Someone needs to inform Dean and his so say highly respected coaches that 4-2-4 won’t work in the modern game, and we’re not living in the 1930’s when teams would regularly have 4 or 5 up front. Unless he’s some kind of tactical revolutionary and he’s bringing back the 3-2-5 formation of the 1880’s - maybe he’s got his eye on the inside-half from Engineers or the outside-left at Old Carthusians! 

His options were limited dues to having about 15 players don’t you think.

he had to change it and do something.

 

[Riaz]

5 minutes ago, Harry said:

Further to my earlier reply, I realise I didn’t answer the question directly. So here goes. 
 

What could he have done? 
Ok, since he’s set his stall out to play this 3-5-2, how the hell did he end up with a 4-2-4. 
 

On those last set of subs, he could’ve easily stuck with his favoured formation. He had 2 centre backs on the bench. He could’ve had :

Vyner-Moore-Towler at the back. 
Hunt & Rowe still as the wing backs. 
Bakinson holding the DM. 
HNM & COD as the 2 attacking CM’s. 
Fam & Wells/Sem up top. 
 

Quite why he had to bring Rowe in from LWB to CB, put Cod as a LB and have 4 strikers on, I’ll never know. 

Vyner and O'Dowda have played ALOT of football. About 7 matches in 21 days (I think)

Not sure that O'Dowda would have made us any better in creating chances.

We are missing Pato badly. We are much more fluid with him in the team.

[Harry]

9 minutes ago, Riaz said:

Vyner and O'Dowda have played ALOT of football. About 7 matches in 21 days (I think)

Not sure that O'Dowda would have made us any better in creating chances.

We are missing Pato badly. We are much more fluid with him in the team.

O’Dowda came on. He could easily have given Vyner the last 20 mins as well, to stick to a ‘known’ formation. 
He could’ve used Towler or Smith. Ok, totally unproven options but anything would’ve been better than “let’s stick all the strikers on”.