Southampton

[Super]

Ten years ago they missed out on the League One Playoffs now tonight they can go top of the Premier League. A club that time after time sells its best players. How have they got it right when others havent? 

[Phileas Fogg]

I think a big part of it is consistently strong recruitment and also managerial appointments. Although they haven't been relegated, it hasn't always been smooth sailing in the Prem and as we've seen with teams like Leicester, Wolves and Sheffield United - it doesn't take much for a side outside the traditional 'big club' monopoly to break ranks and compete. 

[Sheltons Army]

2 minutes ago, Super said:

Ten years ago they missed out on the League One Playoffs now tonight they can go top of the Premier League. A club that time after time sells its best players. How have they got it right when others havent? 

Very good academy and youth recruitment for some years , and they’ve appointed some bad ones but also made some astute managerial appointments - You have to credit Hasenhüttl as they looked like they were Club drifting towards relegation before he took the reins

[Ronnie Sinclair]

Hasenhüttl doing a great job down there - fair play for not sacking him after that 9-0 they are reaping the rewards now

[TonyTonyTony]

5 minutes ago, Super said:

How have they got it right when others havent? 

Can only be down to fantastic recruitment of players/managers/coaching + good youth development. Easy to say, but clearly hard to achieve

[CheddarReds]

They have a clear structure from top to bottom regarding how they want to play. Lots of similarities between Pochettino and Hassenhuttl. It's what we're lacking at our club. There's no clear style of football or philosophy we're aiming for and it can all become a bit scattergun. 

A philosophy makes succession planning of managers and players easier. Rather than chopping and changing playing styles between managers you can bring in the right man to suit the style of play at players at the club. That's the key, finding some who aligns with that broad philosophy. Look how they didn't just go and get an 'experienced' premiership manager e.g. Allardyce, Hughes, Pulis type. 

Of course they have the youth academy too which has been fantastic for them over the years. Our work on the academy over the last few years will come to fruition this decade I expect. 

[Super]

6 minutes ago, Ronnie Sinclair said:

Hasenhüttl doing a great job down there - fair play for not sacking him after that 9-0 they are reaping the rewards now

Absolutely. They play great football as well on a par with the top teams. Wonder whether like Poch they will lose him to a big club.

[Sheltons Army]

2 minutes ago, Super said:

Absolutely. They play great football as well on a par with the top teams. Wonder whether like Poch they will lose him to a big club.

He’s currently being linked with Borussia Dortmund and allegedly is interested 

[TonyTonyTony]

2 minutes ago, Super said:

Wonder whether like Poch they will lose him to a big club.

Inevitable i would imagine. They will have a successor penciled in - might even go back to RB Leipzig for their current manager who's star is rising

[dREDful]

To compare them to us, in the last 10 years how many underqualified coaches have they appointed?

 

Adkins - Won promotion from the league they needed to get out of with Scunthorpe. 

Pochettinho - Kept Espanol up first season, before winning the domestic cup with them. 

Koeman - Huge CV of honours as manager.

Puel - Won Ligue 1 with Monaco. 

Pellegrino - Took Alaves to their first ever domestic cup final. 

Hughes - Kept numerous clubs safe from relegation.

Hassenhuttl - Took RB Leipzig to 2nd in the Bundesliga, highest ever finish. Qualified for Europe for the first time in clubs history. 

 

So Southampton have appointed based in their needs at the time. They want to be promoted from L1, they appoint someone who can. They sack him when they believe he can go no further (rather than wait for the inevitable) and bring someone who can keep them up when they most needed it (Poch and later Hughes) and when they are settled and wiling to push for Europe the appoint managers again with proven track records to do that. 

Literally every appointment has made sense and matched the criteria they've set. It's great decision making and it has almost always paid off. 

Whereas at little old Ashton Gate Lansdown takes the opposite approach almost every time..... You can see why some teams get success and why we will never reach the Premier League under SL. 

[Ronnie Sinclair]

I was miffed when they sacked Adkins, but turns out it was the correct decision with their subsequent seasons.

[Kid in the Riot]

26 minutes ago, Super said:

Ten years ago they missed out on the League One Playoffs now tonight they can go top of the Premier League. A club that time after time sells its best players. How have they got it right when others havent? 

Les Reed and "the black box".

[exAtyeoMax]

Two of my friends are Saints fans, they nearly gave up going a couple of years ago because it was so bad, they nearly got relegated. It hasn't always been great.

This season seems strange, where teams who were flying last season now appear to be struggling…

[Taz]

4 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Two of my friends are Saints fans, they nearly gave up going a couple of years ago because it was so bad, they nearly got relegated. It hasn't always been great.

This season seems strange, where teams who were flying last season now appear to be struggling…

Well put. Case in point - Arsenal. They certainly shouldn't be where they are, and probably won't be by the end of the season. Chelsea had a shocking season a few years ago, look what happened the next season.

As mentioned previously, Leicester came from nowhere to win it, Sheffield United were last seasons surprise package, and this year we see Southampton mixing it with the big boys.

You have to admire the system and setup they have there, and it wasn't until @dREDful listed their recent managers that you really see what they have done at each stage they are at.

In recent years they've sold on their biggest talents, reinvested, and pushed on. That's the model we should be looking at as a club.

[Bristol Oil Services]

Southampton were once years behind us, only starting in the FL in 1920. They then spent decades dawdling about between Div 3 South and the Second Division. 

In 1967, they were promoted to the top for the first time. They struggled in that first season but have managed 42 seasons at the top since then, and just the two lower than the Second Division since 1967.

So, with no "history," and coming from a football "backwater," and with attendances very, very similar to what we got, they have been able to maintain top class football for decades.

Meanwhile, after decades dawdling about Div 3 South and the Second Division, we are promoted to the top for the second time in our history. We struggle in that first season, but stay up. Then with slightly bigger attendances (in 77, 78 and 79) and a better ground than Southampton, we continue to struggle and are finally sunk after four seasons, and 40 years later are yet to return.

It is a sad and sorry contrast, between two football clubs of similar size and resource and potential from two cities in the south, miles from the traditional football "hotbeds."

How did Southampton manage so comfortably to adapt to the challenges of top class football  (with no history of it) where we failed, and continue to fail, so dismally?

 

Is it any ****ing wonder we are a miserable, moaning, pessimistic and apathetic crowd, when we compare ourselves to a club like Southampton? The decades of mediocrity, failure and waste take its toll.

And there's little sign of any change to this situation in the near future. We are shite, and we know we are.

 

[Bris Red]

39 minutes ago, dREDful said:

To compare them to us, in the last 10 years how many underqualified coaches have they appointed?

 

Adkins - Won promotion from the league they needed to get out of with Scunthorpe. 

Pochettinho - Kept Espanol up first season, before winning the domestic cup with them. 

Koeman - Huge CV of honours as manager.

Puel - Won Ligue 1 with Monaco. 

Pellegrino - Took Alaves to their first ever domestic cup final. 

Hughes - Kept numerous clubs safe from relegation.

Hassenhuttl - Took RB Leipzig to 2nd in the Bundesliga, highest ever finish. Qualified for Europe for the first time in clubs history. 

 

So Southampton have appointed based in their needs at the time. They want to be promoted from L1, they appoint someone who can. They sack him when they believe he can go no further (rather than wait for the inevitable) and bring someone who can keep them up when they most needed it (Poch and later Hughes) and when they are settled and wiling to push for Europe the appoint managers again with proven track records to do that. 

Literally every appointment has made sense and matched the criteria they've set. It's great decision making and it has almost always paid off. 

Whereas at little old Ashton Gate Lansdown takes the opposite approach almost every time..... You can see why some teams get success and why we will never reach the Premier League under SL. 

Yup - couldn’t have put it better myself. They employ the right gaffers at the right times. Polar opposite to us. ******* depressing and to be honest i have had a guts full of Bristol City football club.

[And Its Smith]

Football off the pitch is all about making the correct decisions.  If you make the right choices more often than not in the manager, DOF and player recruitment then you will succeed.  Liverpool and Southampton consistently do that.  You can count the bad signings and managerial appointments those clubs have made over the last 5 years in one hand. 

Arsenal and Man United do not.  You’d need 3 hands to count their errors in just the last 24 months. 

Generally we get about 50% of decisions correct I’d say.  Need to up that to 80-90% to be where we want.  Mark Ashton simply has to come under huge scrutiny now.  

[Red_Alligator]

Excellent academy and a very wide reaching scouting network. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 16/12/2020 at 12:12, dREDful said:

To compare them to us, in the last 10 years how many underqualified coaches have they appointed?

 

Adkins - Won promotion from the league they needed to get out of with Scunthorpe. 

Pochettinho - Kept Espanol up first season, before winning the domestic cup with them. 

Koeman - Huge CV of honours as manager.

Puel - Won Ligue 1 with Monaco. 

Pellegrino - Took Alaves to their first ever domestic cup final. 

Hughes - Kept numerous clubs safe from relegation.

Hassenhuttl - Took RB Leipzig to 2nd in the Bundesliga, highest ever finish. Qualified for Europe for the first time in clubs history. 

 

So Southampton have appointed based in their needs at the time. They want to be promoted from L1, they appoint someone who can. They sack him when they believe he can go no further (rather than wait for the inevitable) and bring someone who can keep them up when they most needed it (Poch and later Hughes) and when they are settled and wiling to push for Europe the appoint managers again with proven track records to do that. 

Literally every appointment has made sense and matched the criteria they've set. It's great decision making and it has almost always paid off. 

Whereas at little old Ashton Gate Lansdown takes the opposite approach almost every time..... You can see why some teams get success and why we will never reach the Premier League under SL. 

Swansea were another who were like that, until IMO they sacked Laudrup- Monk did a good 12-18 months but that was the beginning of the end for their ethos, philosophy.

After a decent half-season, or final third with goals and reasonable football, lots of Spanish and similar players- Laudrup signings- were got rid of- and they went into a notable decline, over time- with different managers, each with their own ideas and eventual (inevitable?) relegation.

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 16/12/2020 at 12:24, Taz said:

Well put. Case in point - Arsenal. They certainly shouldn't be where they are, and probably won't be by the end of the season. Chelsea had a shocking season a few years ago, look what happened the next season.

As mentioned previously, Leicester came from nowhere to win it, Sheffield United were last seasons surprise package, and this year we see Southampton mixing it with the big boys.

You have to admire the system and setup they have there, and it wasn't until @dREDful listed their recent managers that you really see what they have done at each stage they are at.

In recent years they've sold on their biggest talents, reinvested, and pushed on. That's the model we should be looking at as a club.

Think no fans hits them pretty hard- they're one of those along with say Burnley- maybe Leicester and Wolves too- whose home record in PL is worse than last year- could add Leicester to that to some extent. 

One of those lower to middling- or middling to upper middling- who really do need their fans, to be strong at home. I know all clubs miss their fans but for some like that it can make a drastic difference.

Not that Norwich fans are that passionate, but I think they would have made a better fist of survival in their run in if not for Covid given their home run in especially- Leeds surely would have a few more points at home with fans, another good example.

[cidered abroad]

On 16/12/2020 at 12:25, Moments of Pleasure said:

Southampton were once years behind us, only starting in the FL in 1920. They then spent decades dawdling about between Div 3 South and the Second Division. 

In 1967, they were promoted to the top for the first time. They struggled in that first season but have managed 42 seasons at the top since then, and just the two lower than the Second Division since 1967.

So, with no "history," and coming from a football "backwater," and with attendances very, very similar to what we got, they have been able to maintain top class football for decades.

Meanwhile, after decades dawdling about Div 3 South and the Second Division, we are promoted to the top for the second time in our history. We struggle in that first season, but stay up. Then with slightly bigger attendances (in 77, 78 and 79) and a better ground than Southampton, we continue to struggle and are finally sunk after four seasons, and 40 years later are yet to return.

It is a sad and sorry contrast, between two football clubs of similar size and resource and potential from two cities in the south, miles from the traditional football "hotbeds."

How did Southampton manage so comfortably to adapt to the challenges of top class football  (with no history of it) where we failed, and continue to fail, so dismally?

 

Is it any ****ing wonder we are a miserable, moaning, pessimistic and apathetic crowd, when we compare ourselves to a club like Southampton? The decades of mediocrity, failure and waste take its toll.

And there's little sign of any change to this situation in the near future. We are shite, and we know we are.

 

Did Laurie McMenemy set the standard of management and also the recruitment of young boys for development to first team standard?

I'm only guessing but it seems that since he arrived there, apart from a stutter about ten years ago, they have held their own in the top tier. Never to be a giant like Liverpool, Man U, Arsenal, but a solid club that continually regenerates and is run properly.

Four years ago, I met a City fan who is a full time scout for a Premier League club. He was damning in his assessment of City as a football club compared with the likes of Norwich, Saints, Brighton.

We have everything in place financially, our Academy appears to be developing some useful talent, yet we still seem to be unable to produce a first team which has a recognizable pattern of play, we still get bypassed by so many other similar clubs.

I despair that we will ever achieve what we should be screaming for. Some recognition of our club as a club like Southampton, Leicester, Wolves, Middlesboro and so many others. 

Lansdown appears to settle for football mediocrity yet has appointed a top coach for Bristol Bears who will bring silverware and respect.

[CodeRed]

On 16/12/2020 at 12:14, Kid in the Riot said:

Les Reed and "the black box".

So sad he's passed - the drugs I suppose

Take a walk on the wild side and Waiting for my man were top songs

[2015]

On 16/12/2020 at 12:57, And Its Smith said:

Football off the pitch is all about making the correct decisions.  If you make the right choices more often than not in the manager, DOF and player recruitment then you will succeed.  Liverpool and Southampton consistently do that.  You can count the bad signings and managerial appointments those clubs have made over the last 5 years in one hand. 

Arsenal and Man United do not.  You’d need 3 hands to count their errors in just the last 24 months. 

Generally we get about 50% of decisions correct I’d say.  Need to up that to 80-90% to be where we want.  Mark Ashton simply has to come under huge scrutiny now.  

Southampton got the Mark Hughes appointment wrong a few years ago and were nearly relegated, but they have more than made up for that now

[Always Believesham]

Starting with some that has always iirked me about Southampton, they get refered to as a club with a small scouting network due to their location (or at least they used to) and successfully picked up Bale and Walcott from South Wales & Hertfordshire - fair play to them for being able to consistently produce good, young talent though - I can't help but think City of the early 2000's would have made sure both did not have a succesful footballing career.

Something that has really worked for them was their ownership model, Markus Leibherr and his daughter both had great influence over the stability as they came back from league one. Nicola Coretese was also an astute aquisition by all accounts & worked closely with then. They made foreign ownership work, & business wise, not much has gone wrong, it's easy to ignore that success because it wasn't always on the pitch (comparing their ambition to Rupert Lowe of the late 90's/early 2000's).

Their blip (appointing Hughes) which wasn't a massive mistake but it is an outlier in the context of the other managers, came as new ownership came in. It's possible that they didn't keep things in the same way that Leibherr did & I distinctly remember the dissatisfaction of fans under Puel. This time around, I think they're made a really good managerial appointment but it has highlighted that a good academy, off the pitch model and manager/coaching team are required to make it work.

7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Swansea were another who were like that, until IMO they sacked Laudrup- Monk did a good 12-18 months but that was the beginning of the end for their ethos, philosophy.

After a decent half-season, or final third with goals and reasonable football, lots of Spanish and similar players- Laudrup signings- were got rid of- and they went into a notable decline, over time- with different managers, each with their own ideas and eventual (inevitable?) relegation.

I have a feeling Swansea also had either a change of ownrship or strategy that the fans have been very quick to criticise since their demise - linking it back to just after the League Cup win. I'm not sure whether that is a case of "We peaked when we won the cup and it went downhill from there" or "The club stopped doing x and started doing y".

Another very well run club who built on a good model by bringing through players and making the right managerial decisions at the right time.

[MATT BCFC]

They have one of the best managers in world football which helps. 

They like Leeds are an example of if you get a manager who is tactically excellent you can beat teams who have better players than you do. 

 

[And Its Smith]

32 minutes ago, MATT BCFC said:

They have one of the best managers in world football which helps. 

They like Leeds are an example of if you get a manager who is tactically excellent you can beat teams who have better players than you do. 

 

Is he one of the best managers in the world?  And even if so he certainly wasn’t when they appointed him.  Excellent foresight from the person making the decision to appoint him.  

[MATT BCFC]

Just now, And Its Smith said:

Is he one of the best managers in the world?  And even if so he certainly wasn’t when they appointed him.  Excellent foresight from the person making the decision to appoint him.  

He was very highly rated in Germany. They call him the Austrian Klopp. Had a reputation of improving players like Werner as well.

[2015]

12 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Is he one of the best managers in the world?  And even if so he certainly wasn’t when they appointed him.  Excellent foresight from the person making the decision to appoint him.  

I think he is a good shout for any club right now. Only just over a year ago they lost 9-0 to Leicester and now they are what 4th?! Incredible turn around

[And Its Smith]

11 minutes ago, MATT BCFC said:

He was very highly rated in Germany. They call him the Austrian Klopp. Had a reputation of improving players like Werner as well.

Yes absolutely and when he left it was probably a mistake by Leipzig to not give him what he wanted.  But what I’m saying is that Southampton were not appointing a massively in demand manager who was regarded as the best in the world. They had foresight that he could do well for their club. 

 

[Chivs]

On 16/12/2020 at 12:25, Moments of Pleasure said:

Southampton were once years behind us, only starting in the FL in 1920. They then spent decades dawdling about between Div 3 South and the Second Division. 

In 1967, they were promoted to the top for the first time. They struggled in that first season but have managed 42 seasons at the top since then, and just the two lower than the Second Division since 1967.

So, with no "history," and coming from a football "backwater," and with attendances very, very similar to what we got, they have been able to maintain top class football for decades.

Meanwhile, after decades dawdling about Div 3 South and the Second Division, we are promoted to the top for the second time in our history. We struggle in that first season, but stay up. Then with slightly bigger attendances (in 77, 78 and 79) and a better ground than Southampton, we continue to struggle and are finally sunk after four seasons, and 40 years later are yet to return.

It is a sad and sorry contrast, between two football clubs of similar size and resource and potential from two cities in the south, miles from the traditional football "hotbeds."

How did Southampton manage so comfortably to adapt to the challenges of top class football  (with no history of it) where we failed, and continue to fail, so dismally?

 

Is it any ****ing wonder we are a miserable, moaning, pessimistic and apathetic crowd, when we compare ourselves to a club like Southampton? The decades of mediocrity, failure and waste take its toll.

And there's little sign of any change to this situation in the near future. We are shite, and we know we are.

 

I have to say that is the first time I've seen someone justify why I am a miserable, moaning, pessimistic and apathetic person.  And I thank you for it.