Jump to content
IGNORED

The ghost of Chris Ma-rtin past.


Prinny
 Share

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I was  very frustrated by that tonight.  Kalas has pace, he can set up much higher.

The only thing I would say. Tonight, if that dead leg was effecting him, it may have been the reason he did drop deeper. Holden said he wasn't 100%, so could have been playing on his mind. That doesn't explain the other recent gams though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, bris red said:

I feel for both Martin and Wells to be honest. Even the most prolific of strikers wouldn’t of had a sniff in that first half and the second half was only really marginally better in terms of chances created.

Lets be fair we have seen already Martin is an intelligent player with great link up play but he needs others around him. He needs a ball playing midfielder sitting behind him and feeding him - something we just don’t have at present. 

We barely got the ball in the final 3rd, when we did it was pumped in. Expecting strikers to do anything from the "service" in the first half is the height of optimism. 2nd half we kept it around their area a bit better, Bakinson passing through the lines, into feet or finding space for Hunt made a big difference. 

Was it great? No, but it was better and I would be happy   satisfied if we could play like that 2nd 45 against Wycombe. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, old_eastender said:

Don't disagree with what you are saying BUT there were multiple times last night (and in his previous 4 or 5 appearances) where he has got hold of the ball only to give possession away cheaply - that in complete contrast to his excellent hold up play earlier in the season. Also, whilst it was never a strong suit, he is running like he has lead boots on. I think the string of games means he is not recovering to play at his best.

Defo needs to be benched for me, it was awful game management by Holden to leave him struggling on last night instead of giving Sam Bell 30 mins. 

Totally....he’s been poor for several games on the trot now.  Blackburn assist doesn’t negate that either.

He looks a totally different player from earlier this season.

3 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

The only thing I would say. Tonight, if that dead leg was effecting him, it may have been the reason he did drop deeper. Holden said he wasn't 100%, so could have been playing on his mind. That doesn't explain the other recent gams though.

It’s been a trend over several games.  I thought he was struggling, then about 35 mins in he put the afterburners on and I thought “wow, what was wrong with using that pace earlier in the game”.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

It’s been a trend over several games.  I thought he was struggling, then about 35 mins in he put the afterburners on and I thought “wow, what was wrong with using that pace earlier in the game”.

Can't say it was obvious to me that we dropped off, but from those sprints last night I'd think we could easily play a slightly higher line. Didn't realise he was that quick.
 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Totally....he’s been poor for several games on the trot now.  Blackburn assist doesn’t negate that either.

He looks a totally different player from earlier this season.

You've got to get players around him though, right? Having a runner like Andreas Weimann constantly getting beyond you, and a clever footballer like Jamie Paterson to link with, is everything a player like Chris Martin needs.

By the same token, he is not a flick-on target man and it's utterly bizarre that we keep trying to use him that way.

He's a target man in the sense that you need to hit his chest and fire the ball into his feet. His one and two-touch play is so good that if you do that and get people around him he'll look a top Championship player.

If you don't... he's not athletic enough, big enough or quick enough to leave an imprint on a game.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Bassomylord said:

Semenyo up front please seriously?

His ONLY threat is when he runs at players out wide and your suggesting this is removed so he can play in a 2.....which puts emphasis on his finishing which is currently downs standard.

I would say that you can play a role similar to what Maguire did yesterday and both play "up front" and utilise his strengths.

You don't HAVE to stand in the middle of the goal to be an outlet and play stretching player.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think us having a deeper defensive line is partly having Taylor Moore there.

Any long ball with space in behind is dangerous, as Norwich showed and he's prone to getting skinned down that left side with the knock it past him and run around him move too, which if it's further up the pitch is easier to execute.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, The Journalist said:

You've got to get players around him though, right? Having a runner like Andreas Weimann constantly getting beyond you, and a clever footballer like Jamie Paterson to link with, is everything a player like Chris Martin needs.

By the same token, he is not a flick-on target man and it's utterly bizarre that we keep trying to use him that way.

He's a target man in the sense that you need to hit his chest and fire the ball into his feet. His one and two-touch play is so good that if you do that and get people around him he'll look a top Championship player.

If you don't... he's not athletic enough, big enough or quick enough to leave an imprint on a game.

Yep, that’s what I’ve been saying for weeks.  Boy, have missed Weimann and now Pato.

2 hours ago, Prinny said:

I think us having a deeper defensive line is partly having Taylor Moore there.

Any long ball with space in behind is dangerous, as Norwich showed and he's prone to getting skinned down that left side with the knock it past him and run around him move too, which if it's further up the pitch is easier to execute.

That would be my thinking too.  I can’t prove with data, because it’s based on passing positions not defending positions.

FWIW the passing data suggests it doesn’t matter who is at the back....but as it’s passing data I think Vyner’s ability with the ball (over Moore) skews it....because he’ll receive in deeper position.  Data ain’t always useful.

My bigger worry with Moore at the mo’, is his regression from earlier this season.  That position change from centre to left has really screwed him, or appears to have.  I had a debate with @Tipps69 that a positional change from centre to left can be a big deal for some players.  It appears to have really impacted Taylor.  Got to get his head round it quickly.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

My bigger worry with Moore at the mo’, is his regression from earlier this season.  That position change from centre to left has really screwed him, or appears to have.  I had a debate with @Tipps69 that a positional change from centre to left can be a big deal for some players.  It appears to have really impacted Taylor.  Got to get his head round it quickly.

For me he was "the most likely too" at the beginning . Vyner looked as though he could switch off, reticent to push forward and looked lacking confidence to take the ball out. TM looked stronger, broke lines well , looked confident and I would have chosen him over ZV every time. That spell at LCB really played with his mind. He struggled with the position IMO,  lost confidence and hasn't looked the same. Where as Vyner looks twice the player from the start of the season, I have really been impressed how he's improved in a short time. 

Switching sides can be difficult, if it was easy Kalas would have gone there from the get go, I hope he can regain his confidence and form, and prove his worth.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Prior to coming to the gate how often did Martin start a game or play 90 minutes? Being over used is his problem, in recent seasons he was more a steadying sub!

Wells was playing really well as part of an attack that worked well together- where is that skill set in our team?

Martin too slow and poor control. Fammy appalling control. Semenyo intelligent fast but inexperienced, as is Bakinson. Our midfield is improving but still too weak and lightweight. 
Put that together with the LJ like poor starting selection we are lucky to be 9th

Proper management would have had us starting the last 3 games with pretty much the setup each game finished with.

Holden’s get out of jail free card is his injury list, but he could still do better with the resources he has, this is a team of too many individuals!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, dave36 said:

Prior to coming to the gate how often did Martin start a game or play 90 minutes? Being over used is his problem, in recent seasons he was more a steadying sub!

Wells was playing really well as part of an attack that worked well together- where is that skill set in our team?

Martin too slow and poor control. Fammy appalling control. Semenyo intelligent fast but inexperienced, as is Bakinson. Our midfield is improving but still too weak and lightweight. 
Put that together with the LJ like poor starting selection we are lucky to be 9th

Proper management would have had us starting the last 3 games with pretty much the setup each game finished with.

Holden’s get out of jail free card is his injury list, but he could still do better with the resources he has, this is a team of too many individuals!

 

Thus it is not a team!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, that’s what I’ve been saying for weeks.  Boy, have missed Weimann and now Pato.

That would be my thinking too.  I can’t prove with data, because it’s based on passing positions not defending positions.

FWIW the passing data suggests it doesn’t matter who is at the back....but as it’s passing data I think Vyner’s ability with the ball (over Moore) skews it....because he’ll receive in deeper position.  Data ain’t always useful.

My bigger worry with Moore at the mo’, is his regression from earlier this season.  That position change from centre to left has really screwed him, or appears to have.  I had a debate with @Tipps69 that a positional change from centre to left can be a big deal for some players.  It appears to have really impacted Taylor.  Got to get his head round it quickly.

I’ve been avoiding the forum for a few days @Davefevsso you’ll have to excuse my reply because I’ve not read anything on here because of the inevitable toxic nature of things but as a reply to your post (seeing as you’ve tagged me).

Is this new discussion on Moore due to his performance against a Preston team that are well regarded at ‘earning’ themselves penalties that shouldn’t particularly be given? Like Friday’s where there is evidence that Moore got the ball & that Sinclair may not of been touched while the referee has come out to DH & said that if he’s made a mistake he apologises?

Or is it that Moore is struggling for form in a poor team at the moment? Players go through dips in form for many reasons, ask John Stones (much maligned in recent years for being shit despite the team he plays for, the money spent on him & the trophies he’s won) or Steven Caulker, who’s drop off in form can probably be put down to other things outside of football that have been well reported? (And obviously I’ve only used a small percentage centre-backs that could be accused of lacking ability but basically every player could be named as examples).

Moore isn’t a poor player in the form of a Gary Stanley or Nicky Hunt & there is no knowing how the current situation throughout the world is affecting him or anyone else, assuming his family are still living in France (or not in Bristol at least). I would suggest that anyone of probably 9 players could of been dragged off on Friday night because of their poor performance, yet Moore seems to be the centre of discussions? At the moment each & every one of our players that are technically fit to take to the pitch should be being discussed as to their worthiness to be selected because none of them are performing anywhere near the level expected of them.

In a team that is struggling for form & confidence, to have something else to be blamed for personally (giving a penalty away), could play on someone’s mind & affect their performance & while in past years players could be taken out of the firing line & dropped down to the reserves to find their form or to acclimatise to a change of playing position, this simply isn’t possible for varying reasons (lack of available players, unable to move players between squads because of ‘bubbles’ etc), so the only possibility is that the player has to play his way through it in game situations. It’s even unlikely that there is anything that can be worked on adequately on the training ground because of the schedule the club currently faces where they could only be training for 2 or 3 days a week.

It also begs the question that if Moore is so poor at playing this position, why isn’t Vyner, Kalas or Mariappa put there? Especially in the cases of Kalas & Mariappa, they are much more experienced & should be able to adjust to the position better than a relatively inexperienced player, no?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

I’ve been avoiding the forum for a few days @Davefevsso you’ll have to excuse my reply because I’ve not read anything on here because of the inevitable toxic nature of things but as a reply to your post (seeing as you’ve tagged me).

Is this new discussion on Moore due to his performance against a Preston team that are well regarded at ‘earning’ themselves penalties that shouldn’t particularly be given? Like Friday’s where there is evidence that Moore got the ball & that Sinclair may not of been touched while the referee has come out to DH & said that if he’s made a mistake he apologises?

Or is it that Moore is struggling for form in a poor team at the moment? Players go through dips in form for many reasons, ask John Stones (much maligned in recent years for being shit despite the team he plays for, the money spent on him & the trophies he’s won) or Steven Caulker, who’s drop off in form can probably be put down to other things outside of football that have been well reported? (And obviously I’ve only used a small percentage centre-backs that could be accused of lacking ability but basically every player could be named as examples).

Moore isn’t a poor player in the form of a Gary Stanley or Nicky Hunt & there is no knowing how the current situation throughout the world is affecting him or anyone else, assuming his family are still living in France (or not in Bristol at least). I would suggest that anyone of probably 9 players could of been dragged off on Friday night because of their poor performance, yet Moore seems to be the centre of discussions? At the moment each & every one of our players that are technically fit to take to the pitch should be being discussed as to their worthiness to be selected because none of them are performing anywhere near the level expected of them.

In a team that is struggling for form & confidence, to have something else to be blamed for personally (giving a penalty away), could play on someone’s mind & affect their performance & while in past years players could be taken out of the firing line & dropped down to the reserves to find their form or to acclimatise to a change of playing position, this simply isn’t possible for varying reasons (lack of available players, unable to move players between squads because of ‘bubbles’ etc), so the only possibility is that the player has to play his way through it in game situations. It’s even unlikely that there is anything that can be worked on adequately on the training ground because of the schedule the club currently faces where they could only be training for 2 or 3 days a week.

It also begs the question that if Moore is so poor at playing this position, why isn’t Vyner, Kalas or Mariappa put there? Especially in the cases of Kalas & Mariappa, they are much more experienced & should be able to adjust to the position better than a relatively inexperienced player, no?

I’m not talking about the penalty, I’m replying to a point made my Prinny, who was replying to a point made by me that we are playing deeper.  So only talking about Moore because Prinny suggested Kalas might be compensating for Moore.  He may have a point.  The thread isn’t a stinging criticism of Moore, anything but, more a trying to understand why we are playing shit.  Nor is anyone saying Moore’s sub was because he was the worst player either.

As for Moore, Generally his performances look way below the levels he set early season...like many others too.  There appears to be a correlation between moving from CCB to LCB post-Mawson injury.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 19/12/2020 at 03:11, Davefevs said:

It’s what I keep saying....the distances are too big.

I stuck up some passing network maps the other day, on average we are c10 yards more stretched than we were earlier this season.  But that doesn’t take into account when opposition have the ball.

Kalas is setting us up so deep it’s affecting the whole team.

Garry Birtles, ex-Forest striker who used to be a co-commentator used to say the optimum distance back to front was 35 yards.  I even heard LJ say 35-40 yards once.

Tonight we were regularly 50-60 yards.

If you don’t get your defensive line higher, a quick striker won’t benefit either.

I was  very frustrated by that tonight.  Kalas has pace, he can set up much higher.

AB868C0A-FC83-4D22-A708-90B667AA3A9D.thumb.jpeg.d2713ae231bfaf0a38633a0b81416846.jpeg

Arrigo Sacchi got it 😀😀😀

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 20/12/2020 at 04:48, Tipps69 said:

It also begs the question that if Moore is so poor at playing this position, why isn’t Vyner, Kalas or Mariappa put there? Especially in the cases of Kalas & Mariappa, they are much more experienced & should be able to adjust to the position better than a relatively inexperienced player, no?

2 points;

You are absolutely right, in the vast majority of cases Moore has drawn the short straw of playing on the left of the 3 & that certainly needs to be taken into account. However for me the Norwich game seems to have completely knocked his confidence & I simply think he needs a spell on the bench.

Secondly to be fair to Mariappa, he did start on the left of a 3 v Millwall, as Moore played on the right & TM was still poor. Mariappa’s only other 2 starts have come playing as a RB.

If we are going to play a back 3 then until Mawson or Baker return, a combination of Kalas, Mariappa & Vyner is best, I think.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

AB868C0A-FC83-4D22-A708-90B667AA3A9D.thumb.jpeg.d2713ae231bfaf0a38633a0b81416846.jpeg

Arrigo Sacchi got it 😀😀😀

And going back to the book about Klopp Dave

One of his coaches at Mainz did the George Graham rope routine but with the whole team , to drill not just the back line but the gaps between all players and lines 

 

Bottom line is move as a Unit across , and up and down the pitch

Edited by Sheltons Army
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

People will laugh, but if only Marley Watkins had not got injured for a 3 months in November at Aberdeen!

Their fans seemed impressed by him. I would have recalled him. Well, we probably will anyway but by the time he's fit again and back up to speed it could be near the end of the season.

Aberdeen have previous for sending back a loanee injured!!

I always quite liked him as a player.  Too many injuries though unfortunately.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Aberdeen have previous for sending back a loanee injured!!

I always quite liked him as a player.  Too many injuries though unfortunately.

Yep. He's actually good when fit for a while. Not so good when coming back from injury. 

I think we will recall him as Aberdeen probably won't want to extend due to the injury.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem with playing one up front is that we’ve no one now to feed balls to a lone striker. No wingers, nobody who can play in the hole behind him. 

Pato is a possible, but he is woefully inconsistent. CoD is at least consistent, but not very good.  Andi is out for the season and even when he was available didn’t link up effectively with Wells. Fammy is a lone striker (quite possibly!), so doesn’t link with anyone in particular and, anyhow, will be off in January. 

Neither Martin or Semenyo have forged any resemblance of a partnership playing ‘alongside’. 

So it looks like we’ll be re-testing, the tested and failed Palmer. 

Frankly, we’re more than a bit of a shambles in what should be our strongest unit. 

Personally, I struggle to understand how a professional club can overlook the need to develop strong playing partnerships and consider complementary striker attributes as being a key test of suitability for acquisition. We seem overly focused on the ‘decent human’ DNA for me. It seems all a bit random Mr CEO. 

Pity the Academy hasn’t anyone suitable for a support role to Wells... assume we were working to an over-arching playing strategy that, perhaps, is a little surprising and disappointing. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, RedRock said:

The problem with playing one up front is that we’ve no one now to feed balls to a lone striker. No wingers, nobody who can play in the hole behind him. 

Pato is a possible, but he is woefully inconsistent.

inconsistent?  Yes.  Woefully inconsistent?  No.  For a player in a creative role, you are always gonna get ups and downs, but Pato’s numbers are really good.

CoD is at least consistent, but not very good.

Consistent?  No.  I don’t think Callum has even had a consistent first and second half in the same game yet! 😀

Andi is out for the season and even when he was available didn’t link up effectively with Wells. Fammy is a lone striker (quite possibly!), so doesn’t link with anyone in particular and, anyhow, will be off in January. 

Neither Martin or Semenyo have forged any resemblance of a partnership playing ‘alongside’. 

So it looks like we’ll be re-testing, the tested and failed Palmer. 

Frankly, we’re more than a bit of a shambles in what should be our strongest unit. 

Personally, I struggle to understand how a professional club can overlook the need to develop strong playing partnerships and consider complementary striker attributes as being a key test of suitability for acquisition. We seem overly focused on the ‘decent human’ DNA for me. It seems all a bit random Mr CEO.

agree, massive importance on partnering players or units.  We saw that early season.  It seems to have evaporated now.

Pity the Academy hasn’t anyone suitable for a support role to Wells... assume we were working to an over-arching playing strategy that, perhaps, is a little surprising and disappointing.

As much as Bell and Britton are being talked about positively, I would imagine they are some way away from being ready at Championship level....but you never know.  Semenyo is that academy player this season, but he is still raw.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

Over the time he’s been with us, I stand by my view, Pato’s been woefully inconsistent. He totally disappears not just for a few minutes, a half, match...but for several matches in a row, contributing nothing. When he’s on his game, he’s great. Part of our long-standing problem though is trying to build a team with players who turn up in 1:5 matches. Love the bloke, would be a great mate I’m sure, but if we are to progress we need players with consistent 7/10s, with occasional 8s and 9s.

CoD may be inconsistent from 3s-5/10 in one match, but that’s consistently ‘not very good’ for me. Another that passes the ‘decent human’ test...but I want a team of winners, I really do.

We know we’re ‘soft’ and have been for many a year. We knew it, and clearly the football world (eg the Millwall manager) are picking up on it. 

Time for change... which is why I’ve always been a Warnock fan. We really need to sort our culture out from top to bottom.

 

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...