The root cause of our problem

[bristolcitysweden]

 

[chinapig]

9 minutes ago, BigTone said:

Does Ashton pick the team ?  And please don't respond with the old "no but he picked the manager" line because it is frankly tiresome.

Of course not, I have not suggested he does. But the thread is about him and his role and I have given my views on the Head Coach elsewhere.

My case is that if you invest so much power in one man - we have no DoF and no Chief Scout for instance - then he must be ultimately accountable.

Nor are you likely to attract an experienced Head Coach prepared to accept the limitations on his authority.

I think that is a structural/governance issue independent of the person in that post.

Thanks for clarifying your view however.

[KegCity]

1 hour ago, REDOXO said:

Five pages summary. We are crap at the moment and it’s Ashtons fault! 

 

Not sure that's the case, however it can't be denied that the club has struggled with the same issues for the last few seasons and fallen at the same hurdles, which are getting recruitment right and being willing to really double down on chasing promotion. I would never expect the club to be throwing crazy money around in the transfer windows, it's about spending our transfer funds efficiently and on the right players. Imo we've generally failed to do this, with some obvious exceptions.

The question is who is to blame for that, it appears to be Mark Ashton based upon the posts in this thread by those that know about the ins and outs of the running of the club. Ultimately the club has failed in its aims to get into the premier league, and that has been an issue long before Ashton arrived.

I am by no means anti Lansdown, Steve has invested vast sums of money into the club and we are much stronger than we were before he arrived. However, the consistent failure to achieve promotion, whilst watching multiple clubs shoot up from League One to the Premier League while we tread water suggests his approach has its flaws. As I said in the meltdown thread, nobody at the club has proper knowledge of what it takes to get a club out of the championship. A Director of Football in the (dare I say it) Mick McCarthy mould seems the obvious way to put us on the right track in terms of moving up and out of the division. We are crying out for a fresh of fresh air and a kick up the backside in order to get out of the habit of bottling the playoff chase and sleepwalking into mid table. 

Sadly, the decisions made by the club after Lee was sacked suggest the club either don't think this is needed, or aren't willing to make these changes. For what reason I don't know, whether it's a matter of Steve wanting too much control, not wanting to risk the impact of promotion on the clubs finances, or possibly a genuine naivety that the current model is good enough to get promotion nobody outside of the boardroom can know.

Simply put, the last 12 months of football have been reflective of the wider issues at the club. At the moment in time, we are too sluggish and not brave enough to push on. How can we continue our progression when we lose key players every summer? You can't hold players hostage, but equally we need to be in a position where players believe they can play Premier League football with Bristol City, not play Premier League football via a stint at Bristol City. I can't see this happening with the current setup, but I hope I'm wrong.

[chinapig]

9 minutes ago, bcfcfinker said:

The little distortions that you've introduced:
You said: '... he controls all day to day football matters. Which makes him the employee with most power'
What was actually announced was: 'Ashton assumes control of all day-to-day football operations...'

You distorted the announcement so things aren't as 'unequivocal' as you claim, but actually subtle changes that then allow you to create some illusion of an all mighty Mark Ashton mwah ha ha.

I think the old sock has a typo by the way.

Assume in this context means to take on.  So for instance Biden will assume the presidency of the USA in January.

So assumes control means takes on control. I don't see any distinction.

[bristolcitysweden]

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, CodeRed said:

I've genuinely no idea what you mean.  I said MA was here as a consultant well before Cotterill and Harry confirmed it.

If you choose not to believe someone who worked with the recruitment dept in a scouting capacity during that period then I don't know what will.p

 

 

 

You  cut and pasted this: https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/bristol-city-appoint-mark-ashton-as-chief-operating-officer/

You seemed to want to use it as proof of my stupidity of not knowing that MA was there is 2013. I simply responded that you point out where 2013 is mentioned in that piece. Instead of putting me right in your own words and showing me where 2013 is mentioned on this webpage, you stand up @Harry as proof of 2013. This tends to indicate that you can't answer things for yourself.

Does this help you to keep up?

[BigTone]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

Of course not, I have not suggested he does. But the thread is about him and his role and I have given my views on the Head Coach elsewhere.

My case is that if you invest so much power in one man - we have no DoF and no Chief Scout for instance - then he must be ultimately accountable.

Nor are you likely to attract an experienced Head Coach prepared to accept the limitations on his authority.

I think that is a structural/governance issue independent of the person in that post.

Thanks for clarifying your view however.

Ok, so now return to the OP and read it again. How is Ashton responsible for team selection. In your own response you admit he isn't. Other posters (with substantial inside knowledge) suggest (if you have read them) that team selection is down to the Lansdown family. Do you believe this ? A simple yes or no answer will suffice. My point is very simply that not all of the clubs ills can be laid at Ashtons feet. As a club we are at last financially stable and heading (albeit slowly) in the right direction. You want to return to our predicament in 1982 ?  Again a simple yes or no answer will suffice. Let's get behind the club instead of jumping up and down like a chimp (someone else's expression and not mine) and help push forward. If you hadn't noticed the world is engulfed in a rather unusual pandemic as well as our squad being decimated by injuries. How so ? Who gives a shit. If you are a fan then move on.

[chinapig]

4 minutes ago, BigTone said:

Ok, so now return to the OP and read it again. How is Ashton responsible for team selection. In your own response you admit he isn't. Other posters (with substantial inside knowledge) suggest (if you have read them) that team selection is down to the Lansdown family. Do you believe this ? A simple yes or no answer will suffice. My point is very simply that not all of the clubs ills can be laid at Ashtons feet. As a club we are at last financially stable and heading (albeit slowly) in the right direction. You want to return to our predicament in 1982. Again a simple yes or no answer will suffice. Let's get behind the club instead of jumping up and down like a chimp (someone else's expression and not mine) and help push forward. If you hadn't noticed the world is engulfed in a rather unusual pandemic as well as our squad being decimated by injuries. How so ? Who gives a shit. If you are a fan then move on.

I have already said Ashton is not responsible for team selection, or indeed tactics. So I do not and have not held him solely responsible.

My case, which I do not seem to be making clearly, is that he should have a degree of accountability equal to the the level of control he has. And that the structure is not optimal if you have one man, whoever it is, who is filling what should be separate roles.

As to SL, it has been alleged for a long time that he interferes in team matters. Sometimes that has been said by posters with credibility but I don't have enough evidence to say one way or another.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Assume in this context means to take on.  So for instance Biden will assume the presidency of the USA in January.

So assumes control means takes on control. I don't see any distinction.

I think you need to tell everyone what you think the 'chief operating officer role' entails?
Along with a description of what 'day to day football operations' means to you.
This goes to @CodeRed and @Harry as well.

It's an opportunity for you guys to help others to understand, what appears to be, a bad trip on a conspiracy pill.

[BigTone]

8 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I have already said Ashton is not responsible for team selection, or indeed tactics. So I do not and have not held him solely respo

But you say he is ultimately responsible for everything within the club so why now a change of direction? You told me in a previous post that he is accountable for all. 

[Davefevs]

Just now, bcfcfinker said:

I think you need to tell everyone what you think the 'chief operating officer role' entails?
Along with a description of what 'day to day football operations' means to you.
This goes to @CodeRed and @Harry as well.

It's an opportunity for you guys to help others to understand, what appears to be, a bad trip on a conspiracy pill.

Being pedantic, COO...the initial role he came in to do, is a different different role and ranking to CEO, the one he now has.  I’m not sure what prompted the promotion?

https://resources.workable.com/hr-terms/ceo-vs-coo

 

[chinapig]

4 minutes ago, BigTone said:

But you say he is ultimately responsible for everything within the club so why now a change of direction? You told me in a previous post that he is accountable for all. 

We may be at cross purposes Tone, conflating responsibility and accountability. This may be my fault, having worked in corporate governance for some years in the past!

Each person is responsible for their own performance - as is DH for instance. I have been critical of some aspects of that performance elsewhere.

But surely in any organization the senior person is ultimately accountable? If the organisation I work for repeatedly failed to meet its objectives the Chief Executive would be held accountable for example.

[chinapig]

21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Being pedantic, COO...the initial role he came in to do, is a different different role and ranking to CEO, the one he now has.  I’m not sure what prompted the promotion?

https://resources.workable.com/hr-terms/ceo-vs-coo

 

An interesting point, to which I don't know the answer. What I do know is that the two roles would normally be separate, with the CEO taking a strategic view and the COO being hands on. Do we have a COO? If not then presumably Ashton does both?

[Harry]

4 hours ago, bcfcfinker said:

At least CR made an attempt to bring some verifiable facts to his argument and failed when it was put under scrutiny.

When someone starts introducing the words 'fact', 'propoganda', 'I know' etc., any reader who cares to pause and think what is being said can get the salt grinder out.

As to the personal involvement with people, it all points to someone who has a personal axe to grind rather than someone who is taking a unemotional, clear eyed approach to our current situation.

But hey ho, do keep it up.

No personal axe to grind. I just know that he’s a man of flannel. 

56 minutes ago, bcfcfinker said:

You  cut and pasted this: https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/bristol-city-appoint-mark-ashton-as-chief-operating-officer/

You seemed to want to use it as proof of my stupidity of not knowing that MA was there is 2013. I simply responded that you point out where 2013 is mentioned in that piece. Instead of putting me right in your own words and showing me where 2013 is mentioned on this webpage, you stand up @Harry as proof of 2013. This tends to indicate that you can't answer things for yourself.

Does this help you to keep up?

You’ve not read what’s been written. He was here in 2012, not 2013. 
 

Anyway, if you’re after proof of involvement, I’ll copy you 2 emails (redacted) from 2013 & 2014. 
 

[BigTone]

5 minutes ago, chinapig said:

We may be at cross purposes Tone, conflating responsibility and accountability. This may be my fault, having worked in corporate governance for some years in the past!

Each person is responsible for their own performance - as is DH for instance. I have been critical of some aspects of that performance elsewhere.

But surely in any organization the senior person is ultimately accountable? If the organisation I work for repeatedly failed to meet its objectives the Chief Executive would be held accountable for example.

Ok, I agree with what you are saying but as we stand we are still in the top half of the table and a couple of good results will make life better. What I can't abide on here is the finger pointing and crap that gets sprouted after a couple of bad results. People seriously need to grow up and stay off the batter while they contemplate the reality of life.

I am MD of 3 companies (2 in construction and 1 in TV and film) but will always let my employees make their own decisions. I am not into "micro management" because if you need to do that then why employ anybody. The same applies to Ashton. It is his cock on the block but he must let others fulfill their duties without undue interference and in all honesty I think he does. Moving on with transfers and fees received for players (Kelly as an example) his performance has just been extraordinary. Kudos to the man where deserved.

[chinapig]

30 minutes ago, bcfcfinker said:

I think you need to tell everyone what you think the 'chief operating officer role' entails?
Along with a description of what 'day to day football operations' means to you.
This goes to @CodeRed and @Harry as well.

It's an opportunity for you guys to help others to understand, what appears to be, a bad trip on a conspiracy pill.

No need for conspiracy, or even speculation. It's public knowledge, not least from the man himself, that he controls "talent identification" , the player database is his, the analysts work to him, the scouts likewise, as does the Head Coach. He reports to the Board of course.

We don't have a DoF or Chief Scout.

So the structure and degrees of authority are pretty clear.

[chinapig]

2 minutes ago, BigTone said:

Ok, I agree with what you are saying but as we stand we are still in the top half of the table and a couple of good results will make life better. What I can't abide on here is the finger pointing and crap that gets sprouted after a couple of bad results. People seriously need to grow up and stay off the batter while they contemplate the reality of life.

I am MD of 3 companies (2 in construction and 1 in TV and film) but will always let my employees make their own decisions. I am not into "micro management" because if you need to do that then why employ anybody. The same applies to Ashton. It is his cock on the block but he must let others fulfill their duties without undue interference and in all honesty I think he does. Moving on with transfers and fees received for players (Kelly as an example) his performance has just been extraordinary. Kudos to the man where deserved.

I take your points entirely and on the latter in particular - he has brought in a remarkable amount in transfers, and I have given him credit in the past for that.

Fwiw I have often argued that the true strategy is a financial rather than a football one. Hardly a stunning insight given SL's regular emphasis on financial stability and a perfectly reasonable approach. I would just prefer the club to be a bit more honest about it.

[CodeRed]

55 minutes ago, bcfcfinker said:

You  cut and pasted this: https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/bristol-city-appoint-mark-ashton-as-chief-operating-officer/

You seemed to want to use it as proof of my stupidity of not knowing that MA was there is 2013. I simply responded that you point out where 2013 is mentioned in that piece. Instead of putting me right in your own words and showing me where 2013 is mentioned on this webpage, you stand up @Harry as proof of 2013. This tends to indicate that you can't answer things for yourself.

Does this help you to keep up?

He joined Oxford in the first half of 2014, before being appointed (by Oxford) he was working with the group that was seeking to take over Oxford and running his business Tactical Change....he didn't go straight from his consultancy work at City. There was a gap. He was a consultant introducing the Wyscout system from 2012 to 2013. Then he stopped working for City. Then later he was appointed at Oxford after previously doing consultancy for the new owners. The press release doesn't give his full CV. 

You appeared to ridicule the post that said he was a consultant.....I have simply shown that he was. You seem to be very agitated that 2013 wasn't mentioned in the press release-  I don't know why....

 

[ontariored]

1 hour ago, BigTone said:

Does Ashton pick the team ?  And please don't respond with the old "no but he picked the manager" line because it is frankly tiresome.

Well it is getting boring that whatever manager we pick we never get anywhere. same old, same old. lets sack another manager and bring in his understudy. New cash-cow, new level of thinking and leadership is needed. Our existing structure ain't working. Use the strategy of "Change Management" that is proven.

 

[REDOXO]

1 hour ago, KegCity said:

Not sure that's the case, however it can't be denied that the club has struggled with the same issues for the last few seasons and fallen at the same hurdles, which are getting recruitment right and being willing to really double down on chasing promotion. I would never expect the club to be throwing crazy money around in the transfer windows, it's about spending our transfer funds efficiently and on the right players. Imo we've generally failed to do this, with some obvious exceptions.

The question is who is to blame for that, it appears to be Mark Ashton based upon the posts in this thread by those that know about the ins and outs of the running of the club. Ultimately the club has failed in its aims to get into the premier league, and that has been an issue long before Ashton arrived.

I am by no means anti Lansdown, Steve has invested vast sums of money into the club and we are much stronger than we were before he arrived. However, the consistent failure to achieve promotion, whilst watching multiple clubs shoot up from League One to the Premier League while we tread water suggests his approach has its flaws. As I said in the meltdown thread, nobody at the club has proper knowledge of what it takes to get a club out of the championship. A Director of Football in the (dare I say it) Mick McCarthy mould seems the obvious way to put us on the right track in terms of moving up and out of the division. We are crying out for a fresh of fresh air and a kick up the backside in order to get out of the habit of bottling the playoff chase and sleepwalking into mid table. 

Sadly, the decisions made by the club after Lee was sacked suggest the club either don't think this is needed, or aren't willing to make these changes. For what reason I don't know, whether it's a matter of Steve wanting too much control, not wanting to risk the impact of promotion on the clubs finances, or possibly a genuine naivety that the current model is good enough to get promotion nobody outside of the boardroom can know.

Simply put, the last 12 months of football have been reflective of the wider issues at the club. At the moment in time, we are too sluggish and not brave enough to push on. How can we continue our progression when we lose key players every summer? You can't hold players hostage, but equally we need to be in a position where players believe they can play Premier League football with Bristol City, not play Premier League football via a stint at Bristol City. I can't see this happening with the current setup, but I hope I'm wrong.

Maybe. I think the wider issue at the club is 12 long term injuries a comment was even made on talk sport about it. I suppose that’s the fault of any random Lansdown/Ashton/Holden etc etc.

We are shit at the moment it hurts us all but the irrationality of this thread within the context of the situation is nothing short of bizzare 

[bristolcitysweden]

Even with the injured players back we are not good enough for a serious promotion push. Ashton out.

[BigTone]

32 minutes ago, ontariored said:

Well it is getting boring that whatever manager we pick we never get anywhere. same old, same old. lets sack another manager and bring in his understudy. New cash-cow, new level of thinking and leadership is needed. Our existing structure ain't working. Use the strategy of "Change Management" that is proven.

 

Grow a pair

[REDOXO]

16 minutes ago, BigTone said:

Grow a pair

Ran out of likes. 

[Kid in the Riot]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Anyway, if you’re after proof of involvement, I’ll copy you 2 emails (redacted) from 2013 & 2014. 
 

Clearly photoshopped. 

[bristolcitysweden]

The women who gave photoshopping a face

[ontariored]

32 minutes ago, BigTone said:

Grow a pair

Limited obviously same as the management team...

[REDOXO]

4 minutes ago, ontariored said:

Limited obviously same as the management team...

I think the only thing I would put to Holden is we need a lift. Players and supporters alike. The idea he throws on Bell Edwards etc for four minute cameos after the game is lost is annoying. If anything this is an opportunity for giving a kid or kids a proper go. The definition of madness is trying the same thing over and over expecting a different result. 
 

otherwise he’s having no luck at all with injuries except Brunt as with any good luck he won’t play again for us. 

[KegCity]

1 hour ago, REDOXO said:

Maybe. I think the wider issue at the club is 12 long term injuries a comment was even made on talk sport about it. I suppose that’s the fault of any random Lansdown/Ashton/Holden etc etc.

We are shit at the moment it hurts us all but the irrationality of this thread within the context of the situation is nothing short of bizzare 

Yeah, of course thats a huge issue for the current form right now, although isn’t relevant for the poor decision making over the past few seasons. I don’t think there’s anything sinister about the state of the squad currently, injuries happen. 

I’m not trying to be irrational and I’ve said I’ve got no agenda against anyone specifically, just am beginning to find it grating that poor decisions are made almost every off season that hinder our performance on the pitch. I do agree that the constant blaming of Ashton etc for anything and everything that goes wrong makes no sense and doesn’t help address the issues. Of course nobody is at fault for injured players, it’s more the manner in which the few players that are fit look like they’ve never seen a football before, nevermind have any idea what to do with it.

Maybe I’ve got unrealistic expectations. I’d just like to see the team go out and appear to have a plan, play the ball forward and actually test the keeper. We aren’t currently doing that hence the need to look at the wider issues. Injuries have played a huge part, but we weren’t playing much better when we had everyone fit, we were just scoring both the shots we had on target. In my view we were papering over the cracks at the start of the season and the luck in front of goal has run out. That’s why fans are now starting to look at Holden, and who appointed him.

[REDOXO]

27 minutes ago, KegCity said:

Yeah, of course thats a huge issue for the current form right now, although isn’t relevant for the poor decision making over the past few seasons. I don’t think there’s anything sinister about the state of the squad currently, injuries happen. 

I’m not trying to be irrational and I’ve said I’ve got no agenda against anyone specifically, just am beginning to find it grating that poor decisions are made almost every off season that hinder our performance on the pitch. I do agree that the constant blaming of Ashton etc for anything and everything that goes wrong makes no sense and doesn’t help address the issues. Of course nobody is at fault for injured players, it’s more the manner in which the few players that are fit look like they’ve never seen a football before, nevermind have any idea what to do with it.

Maybe I’ve got unrealistic expectations. I’d just like to see the team go out and appear to have a plan, play the ball forward and actually test the keeper. We aren’t currently doing that hence the need to look at the wider issues. Injuries have played a huge part, but we weren’t playing much better when we had everyone fit, we were just scoring both the shots we had on target. In my view we were papering over the cracks at the start of the season and the luck in front of goal has run out. That’s why fans are now starting to look at Holden, and who appointed him.

Yes some of our players look scared or  only give it a good go off the bench. I wasn’t picking on you regarding irrationality it’s the thread as a whole. We have issues that are obvious yet it’s Ashton/Lansdown/Holden’s fault. 
 

As I tweeted to GT yesterday Holden is into his way is the way to play. Until of course we are losing at half time and it all changes. Right now we have little left 3/5/2 doesn’t suit what we have available. That is obvious. As is Massengo who would not get in our u21 team.

But the fact remains he’s trying to contour something from a largely empty hat. That has nothing to do with Ashton until the window opens. Ashton is not the root of the problem as the OP suggests. Nor are the two mentioned. 

[havanatopia]

11 hours ago, steveybadger said:

Well perhaps but a lot of clubs outside of this country do something similar? I remember reading about Lyon a while ago and they had a committee of 7 (7!) who decided which player to go for. At the time they won the French league every year, were competitive in Europe and still sold many players for huge profits.

Not too many novices in this list though to be fair:-

Bernard Lacombe	France	2 December 1996 – 30 June 2000
Jacques Santini	France	1 July 2000 – 30 June 2002
Paul Le Guen	France	1 July 2002 – 30 June 2005
Gérard Houllier	France	1 July 2005 – 25 May 2007
Alain Perrin	France	1 July 2007 – 16 June 2008
Claude Puel	France	1 July 2008 – 20 June 2011
Rémi Garde	France	21 June 2011 – 12 May 2014
Hubert Fournier	France	23 May 2014 – 24 December 2015
Bruno Génésio	France	24 December 2015 – 24 May 2019
Sylvinho	Brazil	25 May 2019 – 7 October 2019
Rudi Garcia	France	14 October 2019 – present

It is also more prevalent in much of the rest of Europe and we are talking about level 2 not level 1.. there is some difference.