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The root cause of our problem


CodeRed

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15 hours ago, KegCity said:

Not sure that's the case, however it can't be denied that the club has struggled with the same issues for the last few seasons and fallen at the same hurdles, which are getting recruitment right and being willing to really double down on chasing promotion. I would never expect the club to be throwing crazy money around in the transfer windows, it's about spending our transfer funds efficiently and on the right players. Imo we've generally failed to do this, with some obvious exceptions.

The question is who is to blame for that, it appears to be Mark Ashton based upon the posts in this thread by those that know about the ins and outs of the running of the club. Ultimately the club has failed in its aims to get into the premier league, and that has been an issue long before Ashton arrived.

I am by no means anti Lansdown, Steve has invested vast sums of money into the club and we are much stronger than we were before he arrived. However, the consistent failure to achieve promotion, whilst watching multiple clubs shoot up from League One to the Premier League while we tread water suggests his approach has its flaws. As I said in the meltdown thread, nobody at the club has proper knowledge of what it takes to get a club out of the championship. A Director of Football in the (dare I say it) Mick McCarthy mould seems the obvious way to put us on the right track in terms of moving up and out of the division. We are crying out for a fresh of fresh air and a kick up the backside in order to get out of the habit of bottling the playoff chase and sleepwalking into mid table. 

Sadly, the decisions made by the club after Lee was sacked suggest the club either don't think this is needed, or aren't willing to make these changes. For what reason I don't know, whether it's a matter of Steve wanting too much control, not wanting to risk the impact of promotion on the clubs finances, or possibly a genuine naivety that the current model is good enough to get promotion nobody outside of the boardroom can know.

Simply put, the last 12 months of football have been reflective of the wider issues at the club. At the moment in time, we are too sluggish and not brave enough to push on. How can we continue our progression when we lose key players every summer? You can't hold players hostage, but equally we need to be in a position where players believe they can play Premier League football with Bristol City, not play Premier League football via a stint at Bristol City. I can't see this happening with the current setup, but I hope I'm wrong.

Great post this. 

You can get out of this league without spending big you just have to be clever. Leeds did it last season and to be fair Brentford should have but can see them going up soon. 

You do also need to be a bit brave and take some risks. Leeds and villa turned down big money for Phillips and Grealish when they were in this league. 

With selling players you should only sell them if you have a decent alternative or someone lined up. Brentford have been able to constantly do this. 

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7 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Not too many novices in this list though to be fair:-

Bernard Lacombe 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 2 December 1996 – 30 June 2000
Jacques Santini 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 1 July 2000 – 30 June 2002
Paul Le Guen 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 1 July 2002 – 30 June 2005
Gérard Houllier 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 1 July 2005 – 25 May 2007
Alain Perrin 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 1 July 2007 – 16 June 2008
Claude Puel 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 1 July 2008 – 20 June 2011
Rémi Garde 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 21 June 2011 – 12 May 2014
Hubert Fournier 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 23 May 2014 – 24 December 2015
Bruno Génésio 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 24 December 2015 – 24 May 2019
Sylvinho 22px-Flag_of_Brazil.svg.png Brazil 25 May 2019 – 7 October 2019
Rudi Garcia 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 14 October 2019 – present

It is also more prevalent in much of the rest of Europe and we are talking about level 2 not level 1.. there is some difference.

True, that ain’t a bad line up.

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7 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Not too many novices in this list though to be fair:-

Bernard Lacombe 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 2 December 1996 – 30 June 2000
Jacques Santini 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 1 July 2000 – 30 June 2002
Paul Le Guen 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 1 July 2002 – 30 June 2005
Gérard Houllier 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 1 July 2005 – 25 May 2007
Alain Perrin 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 1 July 2007 – 16 June 2008
Claude Puel 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 1 July 2008 – 20 June 2011
Rémi Garde 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 21 June 2011 – 12 May 2014
Hubert Fournier 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 23 May 2014 – 24 December 2015
Bruno Génésio 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 24 December 2015 – 24 May 2019
Sylvinho 22px-Flag_of_Brazil.svg.png Brazil 25 May 2019 – 7 October 2019
Rudi Garcia 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 14 October 2019 – present

It is also more prevalent in much of the rest of Europe and we are talking about level 2 not level 1.. there is some difference.

You might want to remove Houlier from the list

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43 minutes ago, MATT BCFC said:

Great post this. 

You can get out of this league without spending big you just have to be clever. Leeds did it last season and to be fair Brentford should have but can see them going up soon. 

You do also need to be a bit brave and take some risks. Leeds and villa turned down big money for Phillips and Grealish when they were in this league. 

With selling players you should only sell them if you have a decent alternative or someone lined up. Brentford have been able to constantly do this. 

Leeds have bigger crowds and higher income than us, we have no choice but to sell our best players to stay within FFP rules and that's why we can't seem to break out of mid-table at the end of each season, none of the individuals mentioned earlier are to blame we can only go up if everything is going for us which is once in a blue moon. A bit like Rovers can't function any higher than mid-table in L1 because of financial constraints we can't compete with the top teams in the Championship for the same reason.

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20 hours ago, Harry said:

100% certain Tone. 
I worked with him at the time. That’s how I know. 

 

No conspiracy sir. 
And the dates and content in that article are a piece of club propaganda. 
He was employed as a “consultant” during the whole of 2012. 
He was in charge of recruitment at that time, but was also essentially putting in place the ‘recruitment database’, which in short, was basically bringing in Wyscout at a cost, and hiring his own ‘analysts’ to review the data. 
The system had nothing to do with the recruitment of summer 14 under Cotterill, as Cotterill basically had no time for it and was his own man demanding his own players. He paid no mind to Ashton’s philosophies. 
Likewise SOD didn’t bother with it when he arrived, preferring to use his own contacts rather than Ashton’s analysts, which I know for a fact SOD described as useless wet wipes. 
I know these things because I was there, and regularly in touch with the managers of the time and the Head Scout of the time. 
 

Ashton had absolutely zero influence in the 2014 recruitment, but on his return to the club in 2016 the club obviously utilised this as propaganda. Ashton was, for absolute fact, responsible for recruitment in 2012 when McInnes was here. By the time SOD arrived, Ashton had left but his analysts were still here - and as I said earlier, I know exactly what the opinion of them was from SOD, Cotterill, Pemberton & Burt through my own personal discussions with these people. 

People would do well to accept the truth of what Harry is saying here.  If you really care about your club you should be willing to accept the reality of what has gone on previously as it will inform your understanding of the present.   

Certain individuals in high positions of the club are delusional and I am afraid that is not a good fit.   No established coach or manager with experience at this level would accept working under the current set up and I am afraid it will take a calamity for that to change for the better.

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20 hours ago, bcfcfinker said:

At least CR made an attempt to bring some verifiable facts to his argument and failed when it was put under scrutiny.

When someone starts introducing the words 'fact', 'propoganda', 'I know' etc., any reader who cares to pause and think what is being said can get the salt grinder out.

As to the personal involvement with people, it all points to someone who has a personal axe to grind rather than someone who is taking a unemotional, clear eyed approach to our current situation.

But hey ho, do keep it up.

Sometimes people actually know stuff.  You have the right to your opinion not the right to your own facts.

Facts are Cotts recruited who he wanted to. Like Luke Freeman, Luke Ayling, Korey Smith etc
Mark Ashton was previously in charge of recruitment when we were signing the likes of Mark Wilson.

I wont be a popular opinion, but the sooner this painfully slow decline accelerates and forces change the better.  It was only when we looked at League 2 that SL ceded control to Keith Dawe and we got a proper manager in.  

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44 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

Leeds have bigger crowds and higher income than us, we have no choice but to sell our best players to stay within FFP rules and that's why we can't seem to break out of mid-table at the end of each season, none of the individuals mentioned earlier are to blame we can only go up if everything is going for us which is once in a blue moon. A bit like Rovers can't function any higher than mid-table in L1 because of financial constraints we can't compete with the top teams in the Championship for the same reason.

Clubs like Southampton and Swansea have managed to do it with (I assume) similar budgets. 

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49 minutes ago, The Bard said:

People would do well to accept the truth of what Harry is saying here.  If you really care about your club you should be willing to accept the reality of what has gone on previously as it will inform your understanding of the present.   

Certain individuals in high positions of the club are delusional and I am afraid that is not a good fit.   No established coach or manager with experience at this level would accept working under the current set up and I am afraid it will take a calamity for that to change for the better.

Relegation?

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1 hour ago, The Bard said:

People would do well to accept the truth of what Harry is saying here.  If you really care about your club you should be willing to accept the reality of what has gone on previously as it will inform your understanding of the present.   

Certain individuals in high positions of the club are delusional and I am afraid that is not a good fit.   No established coach or manager with experience at this level would accept working under the current set up and I am afraid it will take a calamity for that to change for the better.

****, it doesn’t bode well for the future!

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27 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

They did it before the current FFP rules came into place

I guess Sheffield United were subject to FFP when they got promoted? I don't really know the details of FFP to discuss it properly, but at face value it seems as though there are several clubs who managed to move from League One to the Premier League and stay within budget.

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On 19/12/2020 at 10:43, CodeRed said:

You're going to look very stupid now. This is the official BCFC press release when former consultant Mark Ashton was appointed. Read and learn. He was s consultant in 2013

 

20 hours ago, CodeRed said:

He joined Oxford in the first half of 2014, before being appointed (by Oxford) he was working with the group that was seeking to take over Oxford and running his business Tactical Change....he didn't go straight from his consultancy work at City. There was a gap. He was a consultant introducing the Wyscout system from 2012 to 2013. Then he stopped working for City. Then later he was appointed at Oxford after previously doing consultancy for the new owners. The press release doesn't give his full CV. 

You appeared to ridicule the post that said he was a consultant.....I have simply shown that he was. You seem to be very agitated that 2013 wasn't mentioned in the press release-  I don't know why....

 

You supplied information I was to read and learn from as I was clearly stupid in your eyes.

I really really tried to see 2013 in the factual information you supplied, but as much as I tried, it simply wasn't there. Damn those inconsistencies.

It turns out I should be consulting the musings of @Harry, who in turn indicates that MA was't here in 2013 after all.

You guys need to get together and start singing from the same hymn sheet.

 

20 hours ago, Harry said:

No personal axe to grind. I just know that he’s a man of flannel. 

You’ve not read what’s been written. He was here in 2012, not 2013. 
 

Anyway, if you’re after proof of involvement, I’ll copy you 2 emails (redacted) from 2013 & 2014. 
 

3600CC9A-B516-4D40-A045-B7C729B107AD.jpeg

59276FF3-C0C6-4BC1-99D6-C03157232E83.jpeg

 

These emails tend to show (redaction is in place) emails received from the club. Hardly proof of involvement e.g. I could send an email to BCFC, get a response but this does not prove I'm involved with the club. A case of pull the other one, it's got bells on.

For all I know (if others on the forum are allowed to engage in flights of fancy, I'll join in with equally plausible explanations), you're just a football agent who has had the trough taken away from him because MA does things differently. Maybe you're a tad pissed off because the status quo has changed and you're engaging in a bit of sock-puppetry?

I have no problem with people giving points of view. However, when someone tries to covert a POV into 'truth' with claims of ITK with supposed 'evidence' etc., it's got to stand up to scrutiny. Scratch the surface of @CodeRed or @Harry musings,. it is no better than innuendo.

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3 minutes ago, bcfcfinker said:

 

You supplied information I was to read and learn from as I was clearly stupid in your eyes.

I really really tried to see 2013 in the factual information you supplied, but as much as I tried, it simply wasn't there. Damn those inconsistencies.

It turns out I should be consulting the musings of @Harry, who in turn indicates that MA was't here in 2013 after all.

You guys need to get together and start singing from the same hymn sheet.

 

 

These emails tend to show (redaction is in place) emails received from the club. Hardly proof of involvement e.g. I could send an email to BCFC, get a response but this doesn't not prove I'm involved with the club. A case of pull the other one, it's got bells on.

For all I know (if others on the forum are allowed to engage in flights of fancy, I'll join in with equally plausible explanations), you're just a football agent who has had the trough taken away from him because MA does things differently. Maybe you're a tad pissed off because the status quo has changed and you're engaging in a bit of sock-puppetry?

I have no problem with people giving points of view. However, when someone tries to covert a POV into 'truth' with claims of ITK with supposed 'evidence' etc., it's got to stand up to scrutiny. Scratch the surface of @CodeRed or @Harry musings,. it is no better than innuendo.

How about if i also tell you for a fact that i know @Harry was involved as i know of others very close to me who are also involved in the set up as do others on here,  i also know that when @KITR posts it’s worth reading....   

or are we all telling lies on an anonymous football forum for a kick  

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6 minutes ago, bcfcfinker said:

 

You supplied information I was to read and learn from as I was clearly stupid in your eyes.

I really really tried to see 2013 in the factual information you supplied, but as much as I tried, it simply wasn't there. Damn those inconsistencies.

It turns out I should be consulting the musings of @Harry, who in turn indicates that MA was't here in 2013 after all.

You guys need to get together and start singing from the same hymn sheet.

 

 

These emails tend to show (redaction is in place) emails received from the club. Hardly proof of involvement e.g. I could send an email to BCFC, get a response but this does not prove I'm involved with the club. A case of pull the other one, it's got bells on.

For all I know (if others on the forum are allowed to engage in flights of fancy, I'll join in with equally plausible explanations), you're just a football agent who has had the trough taken away from him because MA does things differently. Maybe you're a tad pissed off because the status quo has changed and you're engaging in a bit of sock-puppetry?

I have no problem with people giving points of view. However, when someone tries to covert a POV into 'truth' with claims of ITK with supposed 'evidence' etc., it's got to stand up to scrutiny. Scratch the surface of @CodeRed or @Harry musings,. it is no better than innuendo.

"Substantial" ITK in some cases remember.  Like you I am somewhat sceptical.

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On 19/12/2020 at 12:35, Harry said:

100% certain Tone. 
I worked with him at the time. That’s how I know. 

 

No conspiracy sir. 
And the dates and content in that article are a piece of club propaganda. 
He was employed as a “consultant” during the whole of 2012. 
He was in charge of recruitment at that time, but was also essentially putting in place the ‘recruitment database’, which in short, was basically bringing in Wyscout at a cost, and hiring his own ‘analysts’ to review the data. 
The system had nothing to do with the recruitment of summer 14 under Cotterill, as Cotterill basically had no time for it and was his own man demanding his own players. He paid no mind to Ashton’s philosophies. 
Likewise SOD didn’t bother with it when he arrived, preferring to use his own contacts rather than Ashton’s analysts, which I know for a fact SOD described as useless wet wipes. 
I know these things because I was there, and regularly in touch with the managers of the time and the Head Scout of the time. 
 

Ashton had absolutely zero influence in the 2014 recruitment, but on his return to the club in 2016 the club obviously utilised this as propaganda. Ashton was, for absolute fact, responsible for recruitment in 2012 when McInnes was here. By the time SOD arrived, Ashton had left but his analysts were still here - and as I said earlier, I know exactly what the opinion of them was from SOD, Cotterill, Pemberton & Burt through my own personal discussions with these people. 

Post of the year from Harry right there!

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15 minutes ago, bcfcfinker said:

 

You supplied information I was to read and learn from as I was clearly stupid in your eyes.

I really really tried to see 2013 in the factual information you supplied, but as much as I tried, it simply wasn't there. Damn those inconsistencies.

It turns out I should be consulting the musings of @Harry, who in turn indicates that MA was't here in 2013 after all.

You guys need to get together and start singing from the same hymn sheet.

 

 

These emails tend to show (redaction is in place) emails received from the club. Hardly proof of involvement e.g. I could send an email to BCFC, get a response but this does not prove I'm involved with the club. A case of pull the other one, it's got bells on.

For all I know (if others on the forum are allowed to engage in flights of fancy, I'll join in with equally plausible explanations), you're just a football agent who has had the trough taken away from him because MA does things differently. Maybe you're a tad pissed off because the status quo has changed and you're engaging in a bit of sock-puppetry?

I have no problem with people giving points of view. However, when someone tries to covert a POV into 'truth' with claims of ITK with supposed 'evidence' etc., it's got to stand up to scrutiny. Scratch the surface of @CodeRed or @Harry musings,. it is no better than innuendo.

Ok mate. Have it your way. I made it all up. 

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7 hours ago, MATT BCFC said:

Great post this. 

You can get out of this league without spending big you just have to be clever. Leeds did it last season and to be fair Brentford should have but can see them going up soon. 

You do also need to be a bit brave and take some risks. Leeds and villa turned down big money for Phillips and Grealish when they were in this league. 

With selling players you should only sell them if you have a decent alternative or someone lined up. Brentford have been able to constantly do this. 

Leeds I'll give you, Brentford have a fantastic model. 

Yet Brentford have some similarities, hire a lot of 'unknown/random' foreign players. Aren't they quite analytical in their model too.

Aston Villa are grubby cheats, got some luck with governance and circumstance. Spawny club too.

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I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, but from what I have seen recently, in my opinion Holden is incompetent. His Barry Fry style substitutions in the Rotherham and Brum games plus his insistence of picking Taylor Moore on the left (excellent in the middle, decent on the right but out of his depth on the left) of a 3 have convinced me of this. The person who appointed someone so clearly out of his depth should be held accountable in my view.

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2 hours ago, Harry said:

Ok mate. Have it your way. I made it all up. 

I do not know you Harry but in my opinion, it is clear from content of posts that there are some on OTIB that either have been or still are, very close to the City staff and management.

I was quite close to some back nearly thirty years ago and sometimes they let something out, and otherwise, it's when it's what is not said that is more pertinent.

Others such as scouts from other clubs that I've met and once a comment from another sides manager, combined with our lack of a return to the top tier that we left forty years ago, lead me to believe that Bristol City FC has be poorly run for a long time. We say that we want to get success on the pitch and ultimately get back up there! But the way we operate and who we appoint tells me that we would like to achieve. Those clubs that have already by-passed us and several who will achieve before us, demand playing success from ownership, board, management, playing staff and supporters.

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1 minute ago, bristolcitysweden said:

No, not strictly true. But unfourtionately in general. Steve Lansdown is a good man but he need to understand he knows as much about football as Peter Hargreaves. 

Maybe so but in the process has built a fantastic infrastructure for the club that can be built on to move ourselves forward.

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5 minutes ago, bristolcitysweden said:

The idea of someone giving the best impression in an interview is the best suited person to take the club forward is truly absurd

Spot on. 
If Holden’s interview was “I’m gonna play attacking football, get the fans out of their seats, be on the front foot and entertain our supporters” then I’m sure if any of us had interviewed him we’d have given him the job. 
 

However, when we ask for a copy of his CV, we’d probably think, “mmmmm.....we’ll get back to you sir”. 
 

“Oh, but hold on, what’s this at the top of your resumé? You’re an incredible human being. Super. You’re hired. 

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8 minutes ago, Harry said:

Spot on. 
If Holden’s interview was “I’m gonna play attacking football, get the fans out of their seats, be on the front foot and entertain our supporters” then I’m sure if any of us had interviewed him we’d have given him the job. 
 

However, when we ask for a copy of his CV, we’d probably think, “mmmmm.....we’ll get back to you sir”. 
 

“Oh, but hold on, what’s this at the top of your resumé? You’re an incredible human being. Super. You’re hired. 

In fairness how many fans are in their seats ?

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