The root cause of our problem

[CodeRed]

1 hour ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Haha! Look at the 8th post on page 1 of this thread - yep that’s you saying “I don’t think Holden is the problem ...”

Taken out of context, I said decent bloke, working hard, but not got the skills to take the club forward ( hence - part of the problem) BUT not the systemic problem which  is MA who will only appoint someone prepared to work in his model where he controls recruitment .

I accept MA does well on the financial side - transfer fees, budget - but IMO he should let the manager control recruitment (player selection) and stick to the financials.

 

 

[ashton_fan]

20 hours ago, KegCity said:

I guess Sheffield United were subject to FFP when they got promoted? I don't really know the details of FFP to discuss it properly, but at face value it seems as though there are several clubs who managed to move from League One to the Premier League and stay within budget.

Re Sheffield Utd they did outstandingly well to get promoted although they've been found out this season. I said in my post that it wasn't impossible for us to get promoted but it was a long-shot and shouldn't be expected. Sheff Utd got promoted against the odds but that doesn't happen very often, they did it on the back of promotion from L1, a bit like we nearly did under GJ.

[CodeRed]

4 hours ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

 

How do we have a systemic problem, when we're currently in one of our best all time runs in this league, and thus one of our best runs of all time??

Doesn't seem problematic to me. 

If people want prem and only that, then maybe. However, this IS one of our best runs of all time. 

6th Consecutive Season in Champs 

have to go back to the 1965, to 1974ish run of 8-9 to better that. 

Systemic problem, really?? 

 

Lansdown didn't rebuild the stadium, training ground, and infrastructure to continue on in the Championship where every club loses money every year. His stated aim is the PL and LJ was fired for ' not getting over the line' or making sufficient progress towards that - in SLs view.

The problem is that we can't get a Head Coach/manager with the skills and experience to achieve SL's target as they want greater control of the direction and type of recruitment - which under Ashton has been limited to a final sign off of picking say 1 from a list of 3 or 4 presented .

IMO it is systemic because if DH falls short he will be succeeded by a Paul Simpson or Mike Flynn type and on it goes.

Still, it's Lansdown's money not mine and I've run out off f ucks to give now! 

[KegCity]

40 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

Lansdown didn't rebuild the stadium, training ground, and infrastructure to continue on in the Championship where every club loses money every year. His stated aim is the PL and LJ was fired for ' not getting over the line' or making sufficient progress towards that - in SLs view.

The problem is that we can't get a Head Coach/manager with the skills and experience to achieve SL's target as they want greater control of the direction and type of recruitment - which under Ashton has been limited to a final sign off of picking say 1 from a list of 3 or 4 presented .

IMO it is systemic because if DH falls short he will be succeeded by a Paul Simpson or Mike Flynn type and on it goes.

Still, it's Lansdown's money not mine and I've run out off f ucks to give now! 

That sums my thoughts up nicely. The intention is there but the plan can’t be executed without some experience in place, which won’t come in unless they’re given freedom.

As you say, not our money but I too am starting to find it a bit pointless to turn up and watch the club make the same mistakes and fall at the same hurdles year after year. We’ll carry on down the path of young inexperienced coach as no top manager will accept the restrictions placed upon them. There’s got to be hope as fan, I’m struggling to find any at the moment.

[KegCity]

1 hour ago, ashton_fan said:

Re Sheffield Utd they did outstandingly well to get promoted although they've been found out this season. I said in my post that it wasn't impossible for us to get promoted but it was a long-shot and shouldn't be expected. Sheff Utd got promoted against the odds but that doesn't happen very often, they did it on the back of promotion from L1, a bit like we nearly did under GJ.

Absolutely, there’s no magic formula for promotion and it takes a hell of a lot of luck. Sheffield United spent 3 or 4 (?) years in the championship before promotion so they certainly did it within the constraints of the league. Whilst we’ve not got the core squad from our promotion, they were generally replaced with better players (at least on paper) so that doesn’t seem to be an issue for me.

Don’t get me wrong, it would be a hell of an achievement to get promotion and there’s no guarantee that the changes me and others have called for would get us up, but we’d be in a much better position to do the near impossible than we currently are.

[NickJ]

14 hours ago, Harry said:

 

I had very little expectation going into this season. I believe Holden was the wrong choice, whilst I am also perfectly willing to give him the season now he’s in situ. I’m not gonna call for his head. I also believe our transfer activity this summer was awful. I also believe that this group of players are not good enough for a top 6 shot, and I think that LJ actually over-achieved with them. I also believe that Holden is the best coach of all those at our club now, but he’s now having to conduct less coaching in his role. So we’ve got a lesser manager from last season and lesser coaching too. 

Read what you have put on this thread with interest Harry but not having that mate.

Johnson cannot be taken serioiusly as a man manager, which for me was finally incontrovertibly demonstrated during the lockdown games water breaks, where Johnson spent most of the time moaning at the officials or at best having one on ones with Williams, while Holden took the lead to coach, manage and motivate the players. Wouldn't be surprised if that was what finally done for Johnson and probably gave an indication that Holden is a more natural manager.

 

[BigTone]

11 hours ago, CodeRed said:

Taken out of context, I said decent bloke, working hard, but not got the skills to take the club forward ( hence - part of the problem) BUT not the systemic problem which  is MA who will only appoint someone prepared to work in his model where he controls recruitment .

I accept MA does well on the financial side - transfer fees, budget - but IMO he should let the manager control recruitment (player selection) and stick to the financials.

 

 

You said he wasn't the problem. Read your own post. No context was misinterpreted 

[CodeRed]

11 minutes ago, BigTone said:

You said he wasn't the problem. Read your own post. No context was misinterpreted 

My post was clear enough, most people understand my point. Wether you agree with it or not is  up to you of course.

[BigTone]

1 hour ago, CodeRed said:

My post was clear enough, most people understand my point. Wether you agree with it or not is  up to you of course.

Thank you

[BigTone]

On 19/12/2020 at 00:00, CodeRed said:

I' m interested in people's views - I've stated mine. If you don't have a view or don't wish to comment . Don't.

I don't think Holden is the problem.

Just for clarity

[ashton_fan]

4 hours ago, KegCity said:

Absolutely, there’s no magic formula for promotion and it takes a hell of a lot of luck. Sheffield United spent 3 or 4 (?) years in the championship before promotion so they certainly did it within the constraints of the league. Whilst we’ve not got the core squad from our promotion, they were generally replaced with better players (at least on paper) so that doesn’t seem to be an issue for me.

Don’t get me wrong, it would be a hell of an achievement to get promotion and there’s no guarantee that the changes me and others have called for would get us up, but we’d be in a much better position to do the near impossible than we currently are.

The players we have now are better than the promotion team but wouldn't get into the top sides like Bournemouth, Norwich etc. apart from possibly Bentley and Kalas, we are a mid table squad.

[Harry]

6 hours ago, NickJ said:

Read what you have put on this thread with interest Harry but not having that mate.

Johnson cannot be taken serioiusly as a man manager, which for me was finally incontrovertibly demonstrated during the lockdown games water breaks, where Johnson spent most of the time moaning at the officials or at best having one on ones with Williams, while Holden took the lead to coach, manage and motivate the players. Wouldn't be surprised if that was what finally done for Johnson and probably gave an indication that Holden is a more natural manager.

 

I agree with the thoughts on LJ’s actions (or inactions) post-covid. 
I also thought it was very remiss of him to be remonstrating with the ref rather than briefing the team. I guess he probably knew he was a man under pressure for results and was taking it out on whatever he could take his frustrations out on. 
I agree that he was wrong to do that. 
However, I do feel he got results from this squad of players that marginally overachieved the sum of its parts (and the wages/finances). I said for ages how I didn’t think we had many (if any) truly top 6 quality players, and so to have us in and around that area for 3 seasons (ultimately slipping down at the end of each season), was down to good coaching. 
Now, I include Dean and Macca in that. They are, to my knowledge of some folks that I know who would know, both very good coaches, as is LJ. 
We had 3 good coaches last year. Now we only have 1 - Holden, and he’s not doing as much ‘coaching’ as he would have done before. 
 

I’m certainly not anti Holden. As said, he’s a good coach. But I don’t think he’s the manager for us right now. This stint will stand him in good stead though and I can see him doing well in a L2 or L1 job after he eventually leaves us. 
 

As noted on other threads, I think Dean is very much a ‘covid-caretaker’ appointment. He has no publically stated target this year. I think he’s been told, get us through this season, blood a few of the kids, see if we can maximise any value out of them (can we showcase Semenyo enough to get a few million for him, like we did with Kelly), and then we’ll make a more experienced appointment next season. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

23 hours ago, CodeRed said:

Taken out of context, I said decent bloke, working hard, but not got the skills to take the club forward ( hence - part of the problem)

Yeh ok, if you say so ... but not taken out of context at all - you did not say any of that in your 8th post on the first page of this thread when you said “I don’t think Holden is the problem...” 

[Henry]

5 hours ago, Harry said:

I agree with the thoughts on LJ’s actions (or inactions) post-covid. 
I also thought it was very remiss of him to be remonstrating with the ref rather than briefing the team. I guess he probably knew he was a man under pressure for results and was taking it out on whatever he could take his frustrations out on. 
I agree that he was wrong to do that. 
However, I do feel he got results from this squad of players that marginally overachieved the sum of its parts (and the wages/finances). I said for ages how I didn’t think we had many (if any) truly top 6 quality players, and so to have us in and around that area for 3 seasons (ultimately slipping down at the end of each season), was down to good coaching. 
Now, I include Dean and Macca in that. They are, to my knowledge of some folks that I know who would know, both very good coaches, as is LJ. 
We had 3 good coaches last year. Now we only have 1 - Holden, and he’s not doing as much ‘coaching’ as he would have done before. 
 

I’m certainly not anti Holden. As said, he’s a good coach. But I don’t think he’s the manager for us right now. This stint will stand him in good stead though and I can see him doing well in a L2 or L1 job after he eventually leaves us. 
 

As noted on other threads, I think Dean is very much a ‘covid-caretaker’ appointment. He has no publically stated target this year. I think he’s been told, get us through this season, blood a few of the kids, see if we can maximise any value out of them (can we showcase Semenyo enough to get a few million for him, like we did with Kelly), and then we’ll make a more experienced appointment next season. 

Just out of interest, do you feel Downing and Simpson are not good coaches?

[Harry]

8 hours ago, Henry said:

Just out of interest, do you feel Downing and Simpson are not good coaches?

I believe the 3 coaches we had last year (LJ, DH, JM) are better than the 3 coaches we have now (DH, PS, KD). 
 

[Dan24]

On 19/12/2020 at 12:53, phantom said:

Forest are a poor example to compare with, they've been a club in free fall for years

10 unavailable, I'd say Mawson, Dasilva, Patterson and Weimann would start 

4 players who would have made out starting side much, much better. Then not to mention players on the bench like Walsh who can come on to break teams down if they’re playing a low bloc.

[BigTone]

16 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Yeh ok, if you say so ... but not taken out of context at all - you did not say any of that in your 8th post on the first page of this thread when you said “I don’t think Holden is the problem...” 

I think CodeReds real name may well be Boris.

[BigTone]

7 hours ago, Harry said:

I believe the 3 coaches we had last year (LJ, DH, JM) are better than the 3 coaches we have now (DH, PS, KD). 
 

Interesting thinking I must say but could be something in it. Why exactly did JM get booted out in the manner he was would be enlightening to understand.

[BigTone]

4 hours ago, Dan24 said:

4 players who would have made out starting side much, much better. Then not to mention players on the bench like Walsh who can come on to break teams down if they’re playing a low bloc.

Again we are pinning hope's on Walsh. When was his last game in a City shirt ? Can he do what you say he can ?

[BigTone]

21 hours ago, Harry said:

I agree with the thoughts on LJ’s actions (or inactions) post-covid. 
I also thought it was very remiss of him to be remonstrating with the ref rather than briefing the team. I guess he probably knew he was a man under pressure for results and was taking it out on whatever he could take his frustrations out on. 
I agree that he was wrong to do that. 
However, I do feel he got results from this squad of players that marginally overachieved the sum of its parts (and the wages/finances). I said for ages how I didn’t think we had many (if any) truly top 6 quality players, and so to have us in and around that area for 3 seasons (ultimately slipping down at the end of each season), was down to good coaching. 
Now, I include Dean and Macca in that. They are, to my knowledge of some folks that I know who would know, both very good coaches, as is LJ. 
We had 3 good coaches last year. Now we only have 1 - Holden, and he’s not doing as much ‘coaching’ as he would have done before. 
 

I’m certainly not anti Holden. As said, he’s a good coach. But I don’t think he’s the manager for us right now. This stint will stand him in good stead though and I can see him doing well in a L2 or L1 job after he eventually leaves us. 
 

As noted on other threads, I think Dean is very much a ‘covid-caretaker’ appointment. He has no publically stated target this year. I think he’s been told, get us through this season, blood a few of the kids, see if we can maximise any value out of them (can we showcase Semenyo enough to get a few million for him, like we did with Kelly), and then we’ll make a more experienced appointment next season. 

H, will you stop posting threads I actually agree with. People will start to talk.

Xxxx

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 19/12/2020 at 12:53, phantom said:

Forest are a poor example to compare with, they've been a club in free fall for years

10 unavailable, I'd say Mawson, Dasilva, Patterson and Weimann would start 

Walsh and Williams? Especially the latter in some ways though, as he was quite in demand.

[The Bard]

16 hours ago, Harry said:

I believe the 3 coaches we had last year (LJ, DH, JM) are better than the 3 coaches we have now (DH, PS, KD). 
 

What's the best way to judge?  Word of mouth or based on performances?

For me performances every time.  Our new coaches have come from an international age group background where they watch a lot and then only have 2/3 sessions to get their ideas across before games that happen every now and then. That probably explains our great start.  Not too many sessions but a bounce.  

Now we're in the drudgery of Saturday Tuesday Saturday with no relent, they probably have  no experience of managing and coaching in this environment. The trouble is with this scenario that coaching is secondary to managing the players and this is why I worry.  For example, the way that Fam has been managed recently.  He scored the winner v Blackburn but wasn't given a start in either of the following games which both were awful performances.  How do you think he feels?  And what do you think his team mates think?

[Alessandro]

5 hours ago, The Bard said:

What's the best way to judge?  Word of mouth or based on performances?

For me performances every time.  Our new coaches have come from an international age group background where they watch a lot and then only have 2/3 sessions to get their ideas across before games that happen every now and then. That probably explains our great start.  Not too many sessions but a bounce.  

Now we're in the drudgery of Saturday Tuesday Saturday with no relent, they probably have  no experience of managing and coaching in this environment. The trouble is with this scenario that coaching is secondary to managing the players and this is why I worry.  For example, the way that Fam has been managed recently.  He scored the winner v Blackburn but wasn't given a start in either of the following games which both were awful performances.  How do you think he feels?  And what do you think his team mates think?

I’m not sure where this idea has grown already that Holden is a good man manager? How do we know that? Because he’s not called a player out in public? Because he’s chummy with them??

As you say, performances on the pitch is where we should look and the signs aren’t great - under achieving squad, individual performances regressing. For me, mistakes in preparation for this season training-wise.

Inconsistencies in selection. Drops or hooks some players for one mistake and then persists with players constantly under par. Doesn’t reward good sub performances (as you say). 
 

Everyone lauded his comments to Bakinson pre-season about claiming the shirt and then Brunt comes in and moves ahead of Nagy (now forces his way firmly in ) and Massengo who work their arses off in training.
 

Man management is as much about getting the best out of your players as anything, right now when comparing DH and LJ, LJ is the manager who managed that better with this squad.

[mossey]

15 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Walsh and Williams? Especially the latter in some ways though, as he was quite in demand.

Was a big mistake letting Korey go, and our midfield has certainly missed him.Who made the decision to release him?

[Nogbad the Bad]

36 minutes ago, mossey said:

Was a big mistake letting Korey go, and our midfield has certainly missed him.Who made the decision to release him?

He's 30 next month, repeatedly unavailable through injury, and had only featured in 27 league games out of 92 in the last 2 seasons.

[Robin Wood]

45 minutes ago, mossey said:

Was a big mistake letting Korey go, and our midfield has certainly missed him.Who made the decision to release him?

Just think he thought Swansea are a better club who play decent football perhaps he could see the signs of city going backwards and struggling 

[Son of Fred]

On 21/12/2020 at 09:46, CodeRed said:

Lansdown didn't rebuild the stadium, training ground, and infrastructure to continue on in the Championship where every club loses money every year. His stated aim is the PL and LJ was fired for ' not getting over the line' or making sufficient progress towards that - in SLs view.

The problem is that we can't get a Head Coach/manager with the skills and experience to achieve SL's target as they want greater control of the direction and type of recruitment - which under Ashton has been limited to a final sign off of picking say 1 from a list of 3 or 4 presented .

IMO it is systemic because if DH falls short he will be succeeded by a Paul Simpson or Mike Flynn type and on it goes.

Still, it's Lansdown's money not mine and I've run out off f ucks to give now! 

Yep,, it's a paradox of Lansdown's own making...

Your running out of f ucks & I'm running out of years!

Something's gotta give or were stuck.

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 hours ago, Robin Wood said:

Just think he thought Swansea are a better club who play decent football perhaps he could see the signs of city going backwards and struggling 

What Nogbad said, especially about the injuries. 30 isn't too old though.

11 hours ago, Son of Fred said:

Yep,, it's a paradox of Lansdown's own making...

Your running out of f ucks & I'm running out of years!

Something's gotta give or were stuck.

Not sure we have much of a different option with our income and the current system, what do you propose?