Oh my god they're finally working on throw ins!

[big dosser]

throw ins and free kicks is all about good movement which we dont seem to have

[mossey]

Count the times when we have a throw in, how many times it’s thrown back towards our own half, even if we are up by the opposition penalty box,it goes back, back then across the field, only for 2 minutes later to end up where we had the throw in. It’s not just this season it’s been happening, all part of our new, exciting and attacking football.

Think we have had less box entries this season than any other!

[Banjo Island]

15 minutes ago, mossey said:

Count the times when we have a throw in, how many times it’s thrown back towards our own half, even if we are up by the opposition penalty box,it goes back, back then across the field, only for 2 minutes later to end up where we had the throw in. It’s not just this season it’s been happening, all part of our new, exciting and attacking football.

Think we have had less box entries this season than any other!

There was a time i used to go to the gate to see how many goals cheese was going to score or bob taylor andy cole now as i sit in my southstand seat to break up the boredom i bust out pen and paper and count the box entries what fun

[The Gasbuster]

11 hours ago, WOODSY1111 said:

Last time I remember was under Gary Johnson, pretty sure we had a few successful set piece routines that came off.

"The Weasel" IIRC ?

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Abraham Romanovich said:

Wombats ?

 I suspect the average fan has little understanding of the the machinations of professional football, as any quick perusal of a match day thread would  confirm . 

We certainly all have valid  views and opinions but let's not kid ourselves we have any in depth expertise 

 Barrack Room lawyers -  "A person who likes to give authoritative-sounding opinions on subjects in which they are not qualified." sums up most football fans to a tee.

 

 

 

 

I seriously disagree with you when it comes to the basics of football.

Most have played to some degree of ability.

We are talking throw ins here...not box entries and the various shapes to keep when changing formations etc.

The average football fan knows about the basics, shape, movement, throw ins, corners etc.

If they don't...then fans have been dumbed down.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

It's almost like football has been dumbed down. Throw in understanding is ingrained and becomes natural in childhood. The fact professionals are having to work on it astounds me...that imo is a level of nuts.

The fact Holden says fans may question why,also irritates the hell out of me. What does he take us for, uneducated wombats? 

If a Professional footballer can't do the basics on a pitch of a simple throw in...move, throw to feet or head, make sure it doesn't put you under pressure again, then I'm gob smacked. That is the simplest of drilled in coaching from youth.

 

Yep, runners and blockers.  Watch it done to us all the time.

I’ve mentioned before that one Left-Back I played with was the best throw-in taker I’d seen.  I had a spell playing CM or CF and he had the ability to drop the throw exactly where I wanted.  I had a little move where I’d walk away from him then shove my marker before turning back to him.  He’d drop it onto me to cushion-volley back to him.  It was so basic, but other players would throw it at your chin, or on the bounce.  I never bothered with blocking off myself, but others did.

[spudski]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, runners and blockers.  Watch it done to us all the time.

I’ve mentioned before that one Left-Back I played with was the best throw-in taker I’d seen.  I had a spell playing CM or CF and he had the ability to drop the throw exactly where I wanted.  I had a little move where I’d walk away from him then shove my marker before turning back to him.  He’d drop it onto me to cushion-volley back to him.  It was so basic, but other players would throw it at your chin, or on the bounce.  I never bothered with blocking off myself, but others did.

Exactly Dave...it's basic football we've all learnt whilst growing up.

Tbh... professional footballers nowadays are technically better, fitter and more athletic, and more often than not stick to a game plan or shape. Those players are the ones who make it professionally because of how the game has evolved.

Imo... you're going to smile at my phrase...but there are less natural footballers that make the grade professionally.

I've seen and played with 'lesser quality' players, who have a better ingrained/natural understanding of how to read a game, positioning, angles etc... and have an intelligence and sometimes gifted ability to pass, shoot, receive, throw, take corners and free kicks better than many pros...they just fail in other attributes. 

I'm astounded weekly when I watch pro games in the EFL. So many opportunities arise during games that I know certain gifted amateurs would be able to have taken advantage of better than the pros.

The one thing that irks me the most is the basic skills that can't be carried out.

How many can't control a ball properly, trap it, pass to feet, and crossing...jeez...it's not difficult...the standard of crossing these days is awful.

Rant over :laugh:

 

[The Bard]

Watching some professional sides I actually think my old Downs team were better at using throws. We 'trained' for an hour a week but still managed to co-ordinate moves at throws. In the age of analysts etc it seems very lazy that they aren't more efficient. 

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, spudski said:

Exactly Dave...it's basic football we've all learnt whilst growing up.

Tbh... professional footballers nowadays are technically better, fitter and more athletic, and more often than not stick to a game plan or shape. Those players are the ones who make it professionally because of how the game has evolved.

Imo... you're going to smile at my phrase...but there are less natural footballers that make the grade professionally.

I've seen and played with 'lesser quality' players, who have a better ingrained/natural understanding of how to read a game, positioning, angles etc... and have an intelligence and sometimes gifted ability to pass, shoot, receive, throw, take corners and free kicks better than many pros...they just fail in other attributes. 

I'm astounded weekly when I watch pro games in the EFL. So many opportunities arise during games that I know certain gifted amateurs would be able to have taken advantage of better than the pros.

The one thing that irks me the most is the basic skills that can't be carried out.

How many can't control a ball properly, trap it, pass to feet, and crossing...jeez...it's not difficult...the standard of crossing these days is awful.

Rant over

 

Agree.  It’s gonna take a long time to get over the “athlete first” era we went through.

In terms of players who made it from my age group, the most “average” of the good players was Steve Yates, ex-Rovers, QPR, Sheff Utd, Tranmere.  Not a bad career for the boy from Bris.  Don’t get me wrong, he was good (tonnes better than me), but he just did the basics ever so well, he played like a pro at 13/14.  You could tell he was gonna make it through his dedication too.  And he did.

[1960maaan]

49 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

, but other players would throw it at your chin, or on the bounce.

That really winds me up too. It is a very basic thing, you need a ball to lay off first time or easy to control. Our first touch at times isn't great, but if the ball is chin height you have no chance. 

[Guest]

19 hours ago, Harry said:

Should be a football basic, really. 

Completely agree.

In Today’s football where ‘looking after the ball’ seems as important as actually scoring a goal I’m always amazed that teams don’t have set plays for a throw in which retains that all important possession.

Perhaps that’s why we’ve seen some suicidal cross pitch throws being taken recently.

[spudski]

Something else I found odd in that interview was this quote from Holden...

"The front-foot football was evident in the early part of the season. You have to adapt. To sit there as a head coach and say we’re going to play in exactly this style in every game, despite the personnel available, is not the right way to do it.

You have to adapt to the situation you’re in, you have to look at the personnel available and you have to adapt to that and find ways to try and get results with those resources.

That’s what we’re trying to do. I felt the second half was very much like us at Preston. It was more front foot in the second half. We won the ball high and pressed many times in their half of the pitch and created chances off the back of it. And that’s the type of football that we want.

And that’s what we’ll be trying to do in this next batch of games."

 

The statement contradicts itself. He says he has to adapt the play depending on who is available...suggesting we play differently to the strengths of the personnel available...yet says we played more front foot second half against Preston and looking to do it in next games.

So which is it? Doesn't make any sense...

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

Something else I found odd in that interview was this quote from Holden...

"The front-foot football was evident in the early part of the season. You have to adapt. To sit there as a head coach and say we’re going to play in exactly this style in every game, despite the personnel available, is not the right way to do it.

You have to adapt to the situation you’re in, you have to look at the personnel available and you have to adapt to that and find ways to try and get results with those resources.

That’s what we’re trying to do. I felt the second half was very much like us at Preston. It was more front foot in the second half. We won the ball high and pressed many times in their half of the pitch and created chances off the back of it. And that’s the type of football that we want.

And that’s what we’ll be trying to do in this next batch of games."

 

The statement contradicts itself. He says he has to adapt the play depending on who is available...suggesting we play differently to the strengths of the personnel available...yet says we played more front foot second half against Preston and looking to do it in next games.

So which is it? Doesn't make any sense...

From we have too many midfielders so let's sign Brunt to play in midfield to this latest example, the new regime seems to be prone to confused thinking.

I would add to your interpretation that he also seems to be saying to the players he has available that they are not good enough to play "front foot" football . This seems to be an odd way to meet the stated aim of building confidence.

[RedorDead BCFC]

I always thought it was in our DNA that not to sign anyone who can take or receive a throw in. 

[Numero Uno]

Everybody seems to have missed the fact that with the schedule so far this season you are getting one or two days training in between each game, just enough time to go through tactical stuff on the opposition. It doesn’t give you much time to work on set pieces in all honesty.

[phantom]

4 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Everybody seems to have missed the fact that with the schedule so far this season you are getting one or two days training in between each game, just enough time to go through tactical stuff on the opposition. It doesn’t give you much time to work on set pieces in all honesty.

Curious to how long this would actually take? 

It's not like they need to be anywhere else 

[Numero Uno]

3 hours ago, spudski said:

Something else I found odd in that interview was this quote from Holden...

"The front-foot football was evident in the early part of the season. You have to adapt. To sit there as a head coach and say we’re going to play in exactly this style in every game, despite the personnel available, is not the right way to do it.

You have to adapt to the situation you’re in, you have to look at the personnel available and you have to adapt to that and find ways to try and get results with those resources.

That’s what we’re trying to do. I felt the second half was very much like us at Preston. It was more front foot in the second half. We won the ball high and pressed many times in their half of the pitch and created chances off the back of it. And that’s the type of football that we want.

And that’s what we’ll be trying to do in this next batch of games."

 

The statement contradicts itself. He says he has to adapt the play depending on who is available...suggesting we play differently to the strengths of the personnel available...yet says we played more front foot second half against Preston and looking to do it in next games.

So which is it? Doesn't make any sense...

It makes sense if you read it properly. He talks about not playing a certain way “in every game”. So it depends who you have available AND who you are playing against. Whether you agree with it or not is another matter but what he says makes sense.

It’s like anything in life when a leader is doing well they can say what the hell they like and people brush over it. When things are going badly every last word gets micro analysed without any degree of perspective applied whatsoever.

[spudski]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

From we have too many midfielders so let's sign Brunt to play in midfield to this latest example, the new regime seems to be prone to confused thinking.

I would add to your interpretation that he also seems to be saying to the players he has available that they are not good enough to play "front foot" football . This seems to be an odd way to meet the stated aim of building confidence.

It is all very odd,and tbh, regardless of injuries and players available, Holden's tactics, and who he plays where, is rather disturbing. Now this interview about throw ins and the aforementioned...

If it was LJ or SoD he'd be getting pelters.

Fans want him to do well...as do I...he appeals to many because of his way of speaking... however it will be interesting to see how things develop if we continue bad form and losing.

 

[Numero Uno]

4 minutes ago, phantom said:

Curious to how long this would actually take? 

It's not like they need to be anywhere else 

I would imagine coming up with new set piece routines is at least a couple of hours of repetitive work on a limited number of routines. Do you spend that couple of hours doing that or doing necessary tactical stuff for the next game. True they don’t need to be anywhere else but can’t train these guys for 6-7 hours per day and ask them to play Saturday, Midweek, Saturday and then expect them to be anything like fresh.

[spudski]

1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

It makes sense if you read it properly. He talks about not playing a certain way “in every game”. So it depends who you have available AND who you are playing against. Whether you agree with it or not is another matter but what he says makes sense.

It’s like anything in life when a leader is doing well they can say what the hell they like and people brush over it. When things are going badly every last word gets micro analysed without any degree of perspective applied whatsoever.

I don't read it like that at all.

In the first paragraph yes...but then it contradicts itself...as we played front foot second half against Preston...but apparently not first half. And will continue to try that type of football in upcoming games. 

 

[chinapig]

1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

I would imagine coming up with new set piece routines is at least a couple of hours of repetitive work on a limited number of routines. Do you spend that couple of hours doing that or doing necessary tactical stuff for the next game. True they don’t need to be anywhere else but can’t train these guys for 6-7 hours per day and ask them to play Saturday, Midweek, Saturday and then expect them to be anything like fresh.

The same would be true of other Championship sides, meaning that they would spend no time on basics like set pieces either. Which seems improbable.

[chinapig]

2 minutes ago, spudski said:

I don't read it like that at all.

In the first paragraph yes...but then it contradicts itself...as we played front foot second half against Preston...but apparently not first half. And will continue to try that type of football in upcoming games. 

 

Exactly. He is saying on the one hand that we don't have the players to play on the front foot and on the other hand that we did exactly that in the second half. Both statements cannot be true.

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

I don't read it like that at all.

In the first paragraph yes...but then it contradicts itself...as we played front foot second half against Preston...but apparently not first half. And will continue to try that type of football in upcoming games. 

 

We got it wrong against Preston first half, simple as that. They are a team you can get on the front foot against as the second half showed. Wycombe should be another. Imo he made a mistake talking about attacking football on the front foot as a principle when he first got the job because our squad without the likes of Mawson and Dasilva and with our shower of a midfield is not capable of playing that way on a regular basis.

We don’t have a dominant, ball winning midfield player, our one ball carrying centre half is long term crocked, we don’t have a midfield player with any sort of passing range, we don’t have explosive pace in forward areas and we play with very limited width. How do you dominate games with those issues?

[Numero Uno]

7 minutes ago, chinapig said:

The same would be true of other Championship sides, meaning that they would spend no time on basics like set pieces either. Which seems improbable.

Have you seen the general quality of football this season? It’s shit on the whole and understandably so imo as teams are literally stumbling from one game to the next. The fact we are still top half with the side we’ve got tells me it ain’t great for a start.

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

We got it wrong against Preston first half, simple as that. They are a team you can get on the front foot against as the second half showed. Wycombe should be another. Imo he made a mistake talking about attacking football on the front foot as a principle when he first got the job because our squad without the likes of Mawson and Dasilva and with our shower of a midfield is not capable of playing that way on a regular basis.

We don’t have a dominant, ball winning midfield player, our one ball carrying centre half is long term crocked, we don’t have a midfield player with any sort of passing range, we don’t have explosive pace in forward areas and we play with very limited width. How do you dominate games with those issues?

I agree with many of your observations... however...what Holden has said still contradicts itself.

 

[1960maaan]

2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

We got it wrong against Preston first half, simple as that. They are a team you can get on the front foot against as the second half showed. Wycombe should be another. Imo he made a mistake talking about attacking football on the front foot as a principle when he first got the job because our squad without the likes of Mawson and Dasilva and with our shower of a midfield is not capable of playing that way on a regular basis.

TBF, Holden wouldn't have expected to be without a full 2-11. That has changed our mentality in games. The first 5/6 games we did create chances and scored a few goals. My problem is that "shower of a midfield" as you call it should be better than we have been. 2 full Internationals and an U21 should be able to hold and pass the ball better than we have been doing. 

We don’t have a dominant, ball winning midfield player,

Williams was the great hope for that role, something we haven't had for many years IMO

our one ball carrying centre half is long term crocked,

Indeed, a massive miss. I did think Moore may have been able to fill that role to a certain extent, but being forced to LCB seems to have put him back a way. Vyner is looking better all the time, but we have nothing or no-one with any poise  and calmness in a football sense.

we don’t have a midfield player with any sort of passing range,

I do disagree a little here, Bakinson looks promising . He looks to play through lines and into strikers. Massengo showed glimpses last year, but he needs a run of games, with out form I'm not sure he'll get them. 

we don’t have explosive pace in forward areas

That is very true, something else we've lacked for a while.

 and we play with very limited width.

Last time we played 3-5-2, Hunt looked our only threat but had no support. I thought he put some decent balls in, but they were from too far back. As I see it the 4-3-3 has the width from our best finisher. Wells keeps going looking for the ball when he should be in or around the box, a sure sign we lack supply to him. On the other side it is not Rowe's game, and in the  3-5-2 he doesn't get forward wide, he does get in the box well though. Semenyo is the same as Wells , too wide not near enough to his other strikers . 

How do you dominate games with those issues?

With our MF, I should say even with our available MF, we should be able to dominate games. If only for spells. The problem I see is we've lost all confidence. No-one wants to hold the ball, the movement is poor and the man in possession has very few options. That leads to pass, pass, pass back. How you get them out of that mindset, I don't know. The question was too hard for Johnson, and it looks like a real test for Holden until he can get some players back.

 

[Red Skin]

Definitely something we need to work on.

Funnily enough I was thinking about throw-ins the other day.  Are they really that advantageous to the side that has one?  Usually it just gets thrown down the line and it's a 50/50 as to whether you retain possession.

Surely there is a better alternative to give more of an advantage? Not sure what the answer is though..

- Free throw to a team mate as long as the ball isn't thrown forward?  I.e opposition cannot touch the ball first

- Kick-ons instead of throw ins? 

- Additional tramline 10 yards in from side of pitch that a team mate can receive the ball in but opposition must vacate until they receive the ball?

[BCFC Rich]

Liverpool have a coach specifically for throw ins: 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/sep/23/liverpool-throw-in-coach-thomas-gronnemark-klopp#:~:text=Liverpool-,'I work on the long%2C fast and clever'%3A,meet Liverpool's throw-in coach&text=During the scorching summer,wife and their two children.

 

"Thomas Grønnemark started working with Liverpool in 2018 and says ‘most professional players possess very little intelligence’ when it comes to throw-ins."

[Rocking Red Cyril]

21 hours ago, Mad Cyril said:

To be fair, I am pretty sure we are starting to nail the restart though.

From little starts great things can enege 

[Roe]

I remember a couple of years ago in a game against Wolves I was convinced they deliberately let us have a throw in and had a counter planned for when we f'd it up.  It nearly worked as well