Are Downing & Simpson adding enough?

[headhunter]

Ignoring performance quality there is no doubt we are well placed going into the 2nd half of the season.

Our bad luck with injuries is not helping one bit in terms of allowing us to play with any identity. We have at least 6 players out who would be in Holden's starting line up. They will be back but if Walsh & Williams are out longer than mid-Feb, and Fam goes the solution lies in loans of the highest order.

But back to the post title. Holden is learning his trade, of that there is no doubt and I would like anyone to tell me what by way of extra coaching / advice [to Dean] for strikers and midfielders Messrs. Simpson & Downing are offering right now. Championship football is an unforgiving environment that is incomparable with tournament football involving the young elite of our national game. 

LJ was too confident in himself to seek the advice of those who had achieved more than him in the game - Wade Elliott would have been an excellent No.2 to him. 22 years ago John Ward was big enough to say he needed help and at the time wanted the experienced Ray Harford and instead was landed with Benny - that ended well!.

Tinnion & Cisse IMHO could offer just as much as Downing & Simpson who, for me. appear a waste of a wage. Better than the cost of those two how about a senior Citizen who is out of the game but whose experience and playing record would command respect from the squad and help Holden without him seeing them as a threat. Locally based Joe Jordan is one who comes to mind but who else might be out there. My fear is that Ashton wouldn't be in favour of such a move as such an individual might be more than a challenge to him. Thoughts?

[GrahamC]

How can we possibly know?

Tinnion was truly a complete disaster as a manager, Cisse has never been one, so to claim they would “offer just as much” as Simpson or Dowding is supposition at best.

[Engvall’s Splinter]

Intrigued to know why you believe Wade Elliot would’ve been an excellent number two. 

[View from the Dolman]

Strange how if you appoint people who played here, it's "jobs for the boys".

Unless they're one of the seemingly golden elite group in which case, you can appoint them without any scrutiny.

[Maltshoveller]

4 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

How can we possibly know?

Tinnion was truly a complete disaster as a manager, Cisse has never been one, so to claim they would “offer just as much” as Simpson or Dowding is supposition at best.

Agree 100% with your post 

but this is OTIB 

so im sure there will be some posts on here soon telling us the FACTS on the coaching situation

 

[Bris Red]

How can any of us know? None of us are involved with the club on a day to day basis.. we can only go on current results and performances which have lets be honest been pretty woeful so there would be your answer i guess?
Maybe they aren’t adding enough but how much can they truly add if the manager isn’t good enough? They can only give their opinions and support to Holden but ultimately the big decisions etc land with him. Similarly to how Holden must of felt when LJ was manager there is only so much you can do as an assistant.

[Fordy62]

As much as I hate to say it, it would appear that Holden has stepped up to become LJ and Downing and Simpson have stepped up to become Holden. 

[Bris Red]

Let me also add that Downing and Simpson may have a completely different style and vision to how they would want a team to set up and play but unfortunately they have been employed underneath Dean to carry out what HE wants.. if the main man hasn’t much of a clue the whole thing comes crashing down doesn’t it?

[headhunter]

10 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

 

Tinnion was truly a complete disaster as a manager, Cisse has never been one, so to claim they would “offer just as much” as Simpson or Dowding is supposition at best.

Tinnion was NOT a disaster IMHO. He had Millen foisted upon him as he was on the staff and cheap and had no experience. Check the League table placings for 04/05 and see how close Tins came to making the Top 6 in his first season.

My suggestion was Holden supported by Tinnion & Cisse with an experienced Head above all and posed the question are we seeing anything from Downing & Simpson by way of added value

[DT The Optimist]

2 minutes ago, bris red said:

Let me also add that Downing and Simpson may have a completely different style and vision to how they would want a team to set up and play but unfortunately they have been employed underneath Dean to carry out what HE wants.. if the main man hasn’t much of a clue the whole thing comes crashing down doesn’t it?

But these people cannot be ‘yes Men’ but must contribute to the game plan and way forward when it comes to identity and how the match day squad performs... I have always envisaged a management team is similar to the famous Liverpool boot room....where all the staff would thrash out the issues.  

[chinapig]

Much is made of the fact that they were England coaches. But does the England set up attract the best coaches?

For example, Aidy Boothroyd is the U21 coach and the FA has previously employed the awful John Beck.

I would have thought the best coaches would want to be involved in club football at the highest possible level so are unlikely to be attracted to roles with England.

Did we have to fight off competition from bigger clubs for Downing and Simpson?

[Bristol Rob]

Graham Taylor and Arsene Wenger achieved eff all as players bit did okay.

I don't get why the OP makes personal opinions 'facts' such as LJ being too confident in himself to seek help.

More OTIB nonsense.

Length of service/ability to play is not a coaching qualification.

Loads of sports people go on and have fantastic careers, being coached by people who don't have a fraction of their ability, and loads of players with honours a plenty as players do terribly trying to manage and coach players.

[headhunter]

Well I was intrigued by what credentials Jamie McAllister had to hold that position. Wade's on field experience saw the last 400 games of his 700 game career played at Championship Level [inc 1 in Prem]

1 minute ago, chinapig said:

 

Did we have to fight off competition from bigger clubs for Downing and Simpson?

I don't think so!!

[Harry]

I said elsewhere last week, the best coach currently at the club is Holden. 

Last year we had a good coach as Manager who was also an intelligent manager (whether successfully or not is your own call) with 2 good assistants, Holden & McCallister. 
Now we have a good coach as Manager who is very one-dimensional in his managerial approach, but lesser assistants. 

We are inferior in both positions to last season. 

[headhunter]

4 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

 

I don't get why the OP makes personal opinions 'facts' such as LJ being too confident in himself to seek help.

More OTIB nonsense.

 

I apologise for not putting IMHO at the start of that particular sentence as I did on others!!!

[Bristol Rob]

Bring back 'Pembo' the greatest coach THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN*.

 

*Not my view, but the view of countless forums posters who were doubtless improved beyond all belief by being personally coached by him.

[Bristol Oil Services]

26 minutes ago, Harry said:

I said elsewhere last week, the best coach currently at the club is Holden. 

Last year we had a good coach as Manager who was also an intelligent manager (whether successfully or not is your own call) with 2 good assistants, Holden & McCallister. 
Now we have a good coach as Manager who is very one-dimensional in his managerial approach, but lesser assistants. 

We are inferior in both positions to last season. 

Yes yes, but have you taken the air of late? I find it exquisitely fresh and invigorating. 

[Bassomylord]

Think they have done excellent especially Downing. Think about our defensive shape now compared to Johnson.

We had Kalas Baker Webster etc and never looked like keeping a clean sheet. Now we are playing with inferior players and look pretty solid.

29 minutes ago, Harry said:

I said elsewhere last week, the best coach currently at the club is Holden. 

Last year we had a good coach as Manager who was also an intelligent manager (whether successfully or not is your own call) with 2 good assistants, Holden & McCallister. 
Now we have a good coach as Manager who is very one-dimensional in his managerial approach, but lesser assistants. 

We are inferior in both positions to last season. 

utter bollocks.

[Silvio Dante]

31 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Much is made of the fact that they were England coaches. But does the England set up attract the best coaches?

For example, Aidy Boothroyd is the U21 coach and the FA has previously employed the awful John Beck.

I would have thought the best coaches would want to be involved in club football at the highest possible level so are unlikely to be attracted to roles with England.

Did we have to fight off competition from bigger clubs for Downing and Simpson?

I think the thing with England coaches is twofold.

- You’re not having to really add anything new in to improve players. You see them for a couple of days a few times a year, and it’s therefore all about shape. Not about developing them as players

- You’re starting from a position of having the best players at that age

I think (1) above is really key here. If Holden is making what look like poor decisions tactically in how we set up, the coaches drill to that. The problem is that they seem to not have anything in the developing of players so far that’s pushed us on - I think we agree Zak has played well this year but has he kicked on from the back end of last year due to their coaching or just he was on that route? The only one you could argue is Ty, but Han-Noah’s gone backwards.

Summary - are they good coaches or did they just have good players?

[Sheltons Army]

1 minute ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think the thing with England coaches is twofold.

- You’re not having to really add anything new in to improve players. You see them for a couple of days a few times a year, and it’s therefore all about shape. Not about developing them as players

- You’re starting from a position of having the best players at that age

I think (1) above is really key here. If Holden is making what look like poor decisions tactically in how we set up, the coaches drill to that. The problem is that they seem to not have anything in the developing of players so far that’s pushed us on - I think we agree Zak has played well this year but has he kicked on from the back end of last year due to their coaching or just he was on that route? The only one you could argue is Ty, but Han-Noah’s gone backwards.

Summary - are they good coaches or did they just have good players?

Agree Silvio - it’s a different job / role

Anyone who things FA coaches are the best coaches , well , they simply arn’t, they are usually good ‘FA Students’ who are available 

However I can’t comment on Simpson’s or Dowling’s coaching abilities 

Its a strange one for me , earlier in the season we saw some good things , and looked well drilled , especially out of possession - there were clear signs of coaching ground work

Agree recently that we look unprepared , with little sign of such work on training ground

Same coaches , so.... injuries have clearly disrupted ....less time on training ground ..... ?

( Im reserving any judgement on the coaching side atm )

 

And @Harry - I have to politely ask , from what , or who , do you form your (firm) opinion about the coaching merits of Johnson, Holden , Simpson , Dowling etc ?

[headhunter]

4 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

 

Summary - are they good coaches or did they just have good players?

IMHO they are average coaches under a Rookie manager / Head coach.

In the OP I was seeking to make a case for having a father figure above Holden to offer guidance. Lenny Lawrence did something similar for the Gas some years ago with some success. I would expect us to aim higher than his current day equivalent:

After acting as a consultant at Cardiff for a while, he was appointed Director of Football at Bristol Rovers, working alongside coach Paul Trollope in a two-tier managerial structure.^[12] In the pair's first full season in charge, Bristol Rovers won promotion into League One after winning the League Two play-offs.^[13] He remained in this position until leaving the club on 12 May 2010, with their League One status still intact

[And Its Smith]

Lots of people opine on the abilities of assistant managers. Opinions based on no knowledge whatsoever in the main. 

[Harry]

16 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Agree Silvio - it’s a different job / role

Anyone who things FA coaches are the best coaches , well , they simply arn’t, they are usually good ‘FA Students’ who are available 

However I can’t comment on Simpson’s or Dowling’s coaching abilities 

Its a strange one for me , earlier in the season we saw some good things , and looked well drilled , especially out of possession - there were clear signs of coaching ground work

Agree recently that we look unprepared , with little sign of such work on training ground

Same coaches , so.... injuries have clearly disrupted ....less time on training ground ..... ?

( Im reserving any judgement on the coaching side atm )

 

And @Harry - I have to politely ask , from what , or who , do you form your (firm) opinion about the coaching merits of Johnson, Holden , Simpson , Dowling etc ?

People I know, who work with the people in question. 

[Sheltons Army]

1 minute ago, Harry said:

People I know, who work with the people in question. 

So a player or another coach on academy side then 

And their opinion I assume 

 

Have to say , other than in flashes , probably one spell , I saw little evidence of good coaching during LJs reign Harry

Over coaching maybe

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, headhunter said:

IMHO they are average coaches under a Rookie manager / Head coach.

In the OP I was seeking to make a case for having a father figure above Holden to offer guidance. Lenny Lawrence did something similar for the Gas some years ago with some success. I would expect us to aim higher than his current day equivalent:

After acting as a consultant at Cardiff for a while, he was appointed Director of Football at Bristol Rovers, working alongside coach Paul Trollope in a two-tier managerial structure.^[12] In the pair's first full season in charge, Bristol Rovers won promotion into League One after winning the League Two play-offs.^[13] He remained in this position until leaving the club on 12 May 2010, with their League One status still intact

Lenny Lawrence / Paul Trollope is my often cited example when I referred to LJ and his relationship with MA, i.e. I think he needed a Lenny Lawrence-type character between him and MA.

As for DH, I don’t know what he needs.  He said he wanted experience and he said he got that with Downing and Simpson.  My gut feel is that a combo of injuries, performances and results have muddled his thinking.  Until this week, the coaches have actually had very little time with the players to work on anything at all.  It’s been a combination of receivers and rest for those who’ve played.

It suggests to be that we also have quite an immature group of players too, who need constant reminding of how to play, and whose performance levels drop without day to day drilling.

[Sheltons Army]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Lenny Lawrence / Paul Trollope is my often cited example when I referred to LJ and his relationship with MA, i.e. I think he needed a Lenny Lawrence-type character between him and MA.

As for DH, I don’t know what he needs.  He said he wanted experience and he said he got that with Downing and Simpson.  My gut feel is that a combo of injuries, performances and results have muddled his thinking.  Until this week, the coaches have actually had very little time with the players to work on anything at all.  It’s been a combination of receivers and rest for those who’ve played.

It suggests to be that we also have quite an immature group of players too, who need constant reminding of how to play, and whose performance levels drop without day to day drilling.

Exactly the points / suggestions I made to RedOxo on another thread 

[GrahamC]

2 hours ago, headhunter said:

Tinnion was NOT a disaster IMHO. He had Millen foisted upon him as he was on the staff and cheap and had no experience. Check the League table placings for 04/05 and see how close Tins came to making the Top 6 in his first season.

My suggestion was Holden supported by Tinnion & Cisse with an experienced Head above all and posed the question are we seeing anything from Downing & Simpson by way of added value

He really was, he took over a team that had just made the playoff final & then failed to even make the playoffs.

The following season saw the arrival of some truly dreadful signings (Bridges, Partridge, Grant Smith) & of course the Swansea debacle.

Millen went on to have a far more successful career as a coach at Crystal Palace than he ever did..

[Isawjonshaw]

17 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

He really was, he took over a team that had just made the playoff final & then failed to even make the playoffs.

The following season saw the arrival of some truly dreadful signings (Bridges, Partridge, Grant Smith) & of course the Swansea debacle.

Millen went on to have a far more successful career as a coach at Crystal Palace than he ever did..

It still bugs me now what an utter let down Bridges was!

[City_USA]

We may see their worth this upcoming transfer window if they're able to convince some up and coming talent from the PL that need regular games and aren't getting that from their parent club

[oldstandrobin]

On 26/12/2020 at 19:58, chinapig said:

Much is made of the fact that they were England coaches. But does the England set up attract the best coaches?

For example, Aidy Boothroyd is the U21 coach and the FA has previously employed the awful John Beck.

I would have thought the best coaches would want to be involved in club football at the highest possible level so are unlikely to be attracted to roles with England.

Did we have to fight off competition from bigger clubs for Downing and Simpson?

might as well have employed Randall and Hopkirk (Deceased)