Are Downing & Simpson adding enough?

[petehinton]

On 26/12/2020 at 20:59, And Its Smith said:

Lots of people opine on the abilities of assistant managers. Opinions based on no knowledge whatsoever in the main. 

100%. Bit odd isn’t it

[Selred]

On 26/12/2020 at 19:31, headhunter said:

LJ was too confident in himself to seek the advice of those who had achieved more than him in the game

Didn't LJ have Dalglish as his mentor? And also go visit loads of places like the army, Michelin star chefs, red arrows? And didn't he spend a week at a foreign club? If anything I'd say he really was keen on improving himself. 

[redsapper]

On 26/12/2020 at 20:57, headhunter said:

IMHO they are average coaches under a Rookie manager / Head coach.

In the OP I was seeking to make a case for having a father figure above Holden to offer guidance. Lenny Lawrence did something similar for the Gas some years ago with some success. I would expect us to aim higher than his current day equivalent:

After acting as a consultant at Cardiff for a while, he was appointed Director of Football at Bristol Rovers, working alongside coach Paul Trollope in a two-tier managerial structure.^[12] In the pair's first full season in charge, Bristol Rovers won promotion into League One after winning the League Two play-offs.^[13] He remained in this position until leaving the club on 12 May 2010, with their League One status still intact

This is a point I have wanted to raise for a while. With a Director of football he would direct the style of play of the club and help recrutment of players. 
 

Managers/coaches coach to this and if and when you have a change of manager you don’t have to through away the whole squad and start again. 

Joe Jordan could be the right man for this with the right experience and links  to make it work.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Selred said:

Didn't LJ have Dalglish as his mentor? And also go visit loads of places like the army, Michelin star chefs, red arrows? And didn't he spend a week at a foreign club? If anything I'd say he really was keen on improving himself. 

He spent a lot of time with a lot of people.

The latest one we heard of was with some Hostage Negotiator (or something like that)...but the frustrating thing for me was his next line - “but I don’t know how I can work that into my job as a manager”.  So what were the objectives of this training.  It all sounds impressive doesn’t it.  I’d rather he spent some hours picking the brain of Sam Allardyce or Lenny Lawrence or someone in football.

[Redandproud]

On 26/12/2020 at 19:51, Fordy62 said:

As much as I hate to say it, it would appear that Holden has stepped up to become LJ and Downing and Simpson have stepped up to become Holden. 

Yep, and all three are useless, 

[headhunter]

1 hour ago, redsapper said:

Joe Jordan could be the right man for this with the right experience and links  to make it work.

As the OP I made this suggestion on 26/12.

Reading this and other posts the finger of blame is increasingly pointing in the direction of Mark Ashton. Our latest Rasputin character with the ear of the Lansdowns' would not like someone of the stature of Joe Jordan interfering in his business [transfers/contracts/ agents].

[Sheltons Army]

1 hour ago, headhunter said:

As the OP I made this suggestion on 26/12.

Reading this and other posts the finger of blame is increasingly pointing in the direction of Mark Ashton. Our latest Rasputin character with the ear of the Lansdowns' would not like someone of the stature of Joe Jordan interfering in his business [transfers/contracts/ agents].

The proposal of a DoF has been discussed , always with JJ mentioned for over 10 yrs at least now Dave

Post GJ reign if not before

Joe has great contacts but I wonder now whether he’s tactically astute enough for the modern game

His strength was in leadership and instilling an element of fear , often by example , always at the front in the gym , on runs etc

Great leader but DoF in modern game - not so sure

(I do think we should actively look for a DofF - Leave Aston to negotiation and administration but put all recruitment and relationship with HC to a DofF)

[headhunter]

52 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

The proposal of a DoF has been discussed , always with JJ mentioned for over 10 yrs at least now Dave

Post GJ reign if not before

Joe has great contacts but I wonder now whether he’s tactically astute enough for the modern game

His strength was in leadership and instilling an element of fear , often by example , always at the front in the gym , on runs etc

Great leader but DoF in modern game - not so sure

(I do think we should actively look for a DofF - Leave Aston to negotiation and administration but put all recruitment and relationship with HC to a DofF)

If you were asked to compile a shortlist of 3 who would be on it [decent humans only] ?

[weepywall]

Well if you go on the evidence of what we see on the pitch for 90 minutes then you would have to say that they are adding absolutely nothing, injuries or not we still churn out the same old rubbish that we did before they arrived, one of them will be our next head coach at some stage in the future tho.

[Sheltons Army]

16 minutes ago, headhunter said:

If you were asked to compile a shortlist of 3 who would be on it [decent humans only] ?

Tbh Dave I havnt pondered or researched it , as it wouldn’t be my choice 

But my initial thought would be to look to Germany where their DofF systems are well practised 
 

( I also like their coach development and would seriously be considering a change of direction that way)

Its aN absolutely fundamental and critical appointment and would need deep research (By whom is the next problem SL ?  NO JL? NO  MA ? NO.....so that creates a difficulty  !) (Id actually consult someone like Klopp for his thoughts and any reccomendations) 

The headhunting More your field !

 

The alternative ...... As a quick thought .....How about Graham Souness on a consultancy basis .... lives in Sandbanks , not interested in day to day management ..... vast experience and knowledge and up to speed with modern game  

 

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Sheltons Army said:

The proposal of a DoF has been discussed , always with JJ mentioned for over 10 yrs at least now Dave

Post GJ reign if not before

Joe has great contacts but I wonder now whether he’s tactically astute enough for the modern game

His strength was in leadership and instilling an element of fear , often by example , always at the front in the gym , on runs etc

Great leader but DoF in modern game - not so sure

(I do think we should actively look for a DofF - Leave Aston to negotiation and administration but put all recruitment and relationship with HC to a DofF)

Shelts - if you think Ashton would take a back seat role and leave recruitment to someone else, you clearly do not know the man. 

[Sheltons Army]

4 minutes ago, Harry said:

Shelts - if you think Ashton would take a back seat role and leave recruitment to someone else, you clearly do not know the man. 

I wouldn’t give him a choice Harry if I was SL
 

’Change of  organisation and roles Mark’

 

if he doesn’t like it so be it

Au revoir  

Recruit a new administrator

[Harry]

2 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

I wouldn’t give him a choice Harry if I was SL
 

’Change of  organisation and roles Mark’

 

if he doesn’t like it so be it

Au revoir  

Recruit a new administrator

Well, that’s exactly what would happen. So pretty pointless suggesting he might work under a new DOF. Simply won’t happen. 
 

[Sheltons Army]

9 minutes ago, Harry said:

Well, that’s exactly what would happen. So pretty pointless suggesting he might work under a new DOF. Simply won’t happen. 
 

Well , if SL is content to follow the same path then we won’t be going anywhere , at least up soon

There is more than sufficient evidence that the ‘football operations’ is not a startling success

Substantial questions about recruitment (I still won’t have Ashton buys or sells players as he wishes but he oversees the process)

Questions of fitness , conditioning , and medical staff

Real questions about coaching quality

 

If at some point in near future SL or JL don’t realise that we are heading nowhere under the current set up , we can discuss new head coaches, potential signings etc and it won’t improve 

[RedRock]

4 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Well , if SL is content to follow the same path then we won’t be going anywhere , at least up soon

There is more than sufficient evidence that the ‘football operations’ is not a startling success

Substantial questions about recruitment 

Questions of fitness , conditioning , and medical staff

Real questions about coaching quality

 

If at some point in near future SL or JL don’t realise that we are heading nowhere under the current set up , we can discuss new head coaches, potential signings etc and it won’t improve 

Think given where we are at the moment, it’s the only ‘tweak’ that realistically can be done. 

Pity it wasn’t done a few years back, and time now has virtually run out to impact in this coming transfer window.

 

We’re a bit of a mess football-wise at the moment. 

 

[Red-Robbo]

They appear to be subtracting rather than adding.

We used to be able to defend corners and free kicks...

[LoyalRed]

Nope, next ....

[wendyredredrobin]

The thing is that at the start of the season when we had a fully fit squad, we were winning all of our games even though the quality of football was pretty awful.  The fact that half the squad is injured must have considerable bearing on our current predicament, so I won't judge Holden or his coaches just yet.

What there is no excuse for is ball watching, being second to every loose ball, not challenging for headers, players not taking responsibility or being a yard and a half off the pace.

[MATT BCFC]

On 26/12/2020 at 19:58, chinapig said:

Much is made of the fact that they were England coaches. But does the England set up attract the best coaches?

For example, Aidy Boothroyd is the U21 coach and the FA has previously employed the awful John Beck.

I would have thought the best coaches would want to be involved in club football at the highest possible level so are unlikely to be attracted to roles with England.

Did we have to fight off competition from bigger clubs for Downing and Simpson?

I watch England Under 21s quite a bit and Boothroyd is awful tactically. They do quite well in spite of him definitely not because of him. There's a lot of very talented young English players currently but next to none top English coaches.

[cidered abroad]

Surely it is impossible, for those of us not able to see the Assistant Coaching staff in action, to assess their contribution to the club's performances on the pitch.

We can see the playing staff that make the team during matches and form opinions about their performances.

For the coaching staff, the only one who can be measured, is the Head Coach. That is where the buck stops., with Holden. 

[slartibartfast]

On 26/12/2020 at 19:31, headhunter said:

Ignoring performance quality there is no doubt we are well placed going into the 2nd half of the season.

Our bad luck with injuries is not helping one bit in terms of allowing us to play with any identity. We have at least 6 players out who would be in Holden's starting line up. They will be back but if Walsh & Williams are out longer than mid-Feb, and Fam goes the solution lies in loans of the highest order.

But back to the post title. Holden is learning his trade, of that there is no doubt and I would like anyone to tell me what by way of extra coaching / advice [to Dean] for strikers and midfielders Messrs. Simpson & Downing are offering right now. Championship football is an unforgiving environment that is incomparable with tournament football involving the young elite of our national game. 

LJ was too confident in himself to seek the advice of those who had achieved more than him in the game - Wade Elliott would have been an excellent No.2 to him. 22 years ago John Ward was big enough to say he needed help and at the time wanted the experienced Ray Harford and instead was landed with Benny - that ended well!.

Tinnion & Cisse IMHO could offer just as much as Downing & Simpson who, for me. appear a waste of a wage. Better than the cost of those two how about a senior Citizen who is out of the game but whose experience and playing record would command respect from the squad and help Holden without him seeing them as a threat. Locally based Joe Jordan is one who comes to mind but who else might be out there. My fear is that Ashton wouldn't be in favour of such a move as such an individual might be more than a challenge to him. Thoughts?

In answer to the thread tile..................NO,when was the last time they produced a decent Hancock's Half Hour script ?

[headhunter]

2 hours ago, slartibartfast said:

In answer to the thread tile..................NO,when was the last time they produced a decent Hancock's Half Hour script ?

Sir, that was Galton & Simpson !!

[slartibartfast]

2 hours ago, headhunter said:

Sir, that was Galton & Simpson !!

Sir.................WHOOSH !

[sh1t_ref_again]

What I did expect to see and maybe in this window we will, is having more access to Prem clubs young talent due the the relationships these guys have, but our recent transfers and loans seem to be about getting older players with experience (that are injury proan or legs have gone)

[shelts]

I liked Pembo I wonder why he was given the boot ?

As z earlier I see no difference with the end of Johnson’s football to the stuff being served up now . Dean thinks that’s the way to succeed so it’s out of the coaches hands , buy into the project or go 

[Banjo Red]

Nope not at the moment 

[cidered abroad]

One particular everyday match event has not changed one iota since Holden has been joined by the two assistant coaches.

That is the totally inept way we manage to give the ball to our opponents from 95% of our throw ins.

I know we are not any better off now than when LJ was here, in fact becoming worse with each match. But if either Simpson or Downing were good coaches, surely we could have improved from throw ins?

[PHILINFRANCE]

9 hours ago, slartibartfast said:

Sir.................WHOOSH !

The late Galton & Simpson were, of course, part of the Associated London Scripts agency, together with such classic comedy writing masters as Spike Milligan, Eric Sykes, Frankie Howerd and Johnny Speight, all sadly departed.

As I am sure you are aware, in addition to Hancock's Half Hour, G&S also wrote Steptoe and Son.

[ashton_fan]

Regarding Paul Simpson he has quite a bit of experience as a Head Coach/Manager with a couple of promotions under his belt (admittedly in lower leagues), he has a lot more experience than DH. He got a double-promotion with Carlisle from the Conference to L1 in successive seasons, took Shrewsbury to a L2 Playoff Final and managed Preston for a full season in the Championship taking them to the top of the table by December and then just missing out on the playoffs (a bit like LJ), and he's also been a coach in the Prem with Newcastle so the bloke has serious experience. Although the promotions were only in lower leagues most managers never get promoted in their whole careers, I still think he's meant to be a backup ready to take the reins from DH if things go wrong.

[Phileas Fogg]

How can anyone know really? I suppose the only way is if you look at the results of the team as the sum of the parts of the management and coaches. 

The manager will always be the figurehead, and ultimately the results will decide his fate positively or negatively. If this wasn't the case, there's no way that Holden would currently be manager after being one of LJ's assistants.