A Tale of Two Teams

[Davefevs]

Ignoring injuries and fatigue....because we’ve just had 8 days between games.

Stoke City (a) - possibly our best performance of the season.

Today v Wycombe.

Different formation - 442 v 352

Players:

7 the same. Bentley, Hunt, Vyner, Rowe, Bakinson, Wells and Martin

4 different: Kalas / Mawson, O’Dowda / Paterson, Nagy / Weimann and the kinda odd one out Semenyo / Moore

I don’t see enough difference in the personnel, even with injuries to justify the low level of quality we saw today.  Nor am I saying that it’s down to the 4 different players, that would be unfair, nor is that the season.  I’m just trying to make a point that we can hide behind injuries, but the reality is the side put out today should play better.

Hopefully, the win is a confidence booster, and we can start playing better.  I don’t think I’m asking too much.

Second point, is 3W and 4L (9 Pts from 7) better than 2W 3D 2L (9 Pts from 7)?

 

[Bassomylord]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Ignoring injuries and fatigue....because we’ve just had 8 days between games.

Stoke City (a) - possibly our best performance of the season.

Today v Wycombe.

Different formation - 442 v 352

Players:

7 the same. Bentley, Hunt, Vyner, Rowe, Bakinson, Wells and Martin

4 different: Kalas / Mawson, O’Dowda / Paterson, Nagy / Weimann and the kinda odd one out Semenyo / Moore

I don’t see enough difference in the personnel, even with injuries to justify the low level of quality we saw today.  Nor am I saying that it’s down to the 4 different players, that would be unfair, nor is that the season.  I’m just trying to make a point that we can hide behind injuries, but the reality is the side put out today should play better.

Hopefully, the win is a confidence booster, and we can start playing better.  I don’t think I’m asking too much.

Second point, is 3W and 4L (9 Pts from 7) better than 2W 3D 2L (9 Pts from 7)?

 

let me ask you this.

I watched the Salford documentary.....their manager Graham Alexander got sacked....from league 2. He has more success and experience than Holden.....yet 1 gets sacked from that division and 1 is managing Bristol City.

How or what has Holden done to be anywhere near close to this job....crazy. 

[megansdad]

think we showed signs but missed chances to kill the game. Had we scored the second earlier think we would have gone on to win much more comfortably.

[Davefevs]

Just now, Bassomylord said:

let me ask you this.

I watched the Salford documentary.....their manager Graham Alexander got sacked....from league 2. He has more success and experience than Holden.....yet 1 gets sacked from that division and 1 is managing Bristol City.

How or what has Holden done to be anywhere near close to this job....crazy. 

So are you suggesting it’s all Holden’s fault?  If so, I’m fine if you have that view.

As for his appointment, that’s another question and the world of football throws up surprising appointments.  I like the bloke, think he started well, but he’s made mistakes of late, and I’m happy to criticise him for that. I’m not impressed with how we are playing at the moment....I really enjoyed early season / caretaker spell.  I’m not enjoying the last 6-8 games (in the main).

[cidercity1987]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Ignoring injuries and fatigue....because we’ve just had 8 days between games.

Stoke City (a) - possibly our best performance of the season.

Today v Wycombe.

Different formation - 442 v 352

Players:

7 the same. Bentley, Hunt, Vyner, Rowe, Bakinson, Wells and Martin

4 different: Kalas / Mawson, O’Dowda / Paterson, Nagy / Weimann and the kinda odd one out Semenyo / Moore

I don’t see enough difference in the personnel, even with injuries to justify the low level of quality we saw today.  Nor am I saying that it’s down to the 4 different players, that would be unfair, nor is that the season.  I’m just trying to make a point that we can hide behind injuries, but the reality is the side put out today should play better.

Hopefully, the win is a confidence booster, and we can start playing better.  I don’t think I’m asking too much.

Second point, is 3W and 4L (9 Pts from 7) better than 2W 3D 2L (9 Pts from 7)?

 

In answer to the second point, 3W 4L is worse as it gives the league 12 points compared to 9 points in the latter

[mozo]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Ignoring injuries and fatigue....because we’ve just had 8 days between games.

Stoke City (a) - possibly our best performance of the season.

Today v Wycombe.

Different formation - 442 v 352

Players:

7 the same. Bentley, Hunt, Vyner, Rowe, Bakinson, Wells and Martin

4 different: Kalas / Mawson, O’Dowda / Paterson, Nagy / Weimann and the kinda odd one out Semenyo / Moore

I don’t see enough difference in the personnel, even with injuries to justify the low level of quality we saw today.  Nor am I saying that it’s down to the 4 different players, that would be unfair, nor is that the season.  I’m just trying to make a point that we can hide behind injuries, but the reality is the side put out today should play better.

Hopefully, the win is a confidence booster, and we can start playing better.  I don’t think I’m asking too much.

Second point, is 3W and 4L (9 Pts from 7) better than 2W 3D 2L (9 Pts from 7)?

 

Mad isn't it. Something has changed.

Regards the record in last 7 games, looking at the fixtures, 9 points is insufficient no matter how it came.

[TomThumb84]

Interesting stuff as always Dave.

For me, the difference is time. The longer a good/experienced coach spends with a squad, the better they get.

The longer an inexperienced/unproven coach spends with a group, the more average and laboured they are.

 

[lenred]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

So are you suggesting it’s all Holden’s fault?  If so, I’m fine if you have that view.

As for his appointment, that’s another question and the world of football throws up surprising appointments.  I like the bloke, think he started well, but he’s made mistakes of late, and I’m happy to criticise him for that. I’m not impressed with how we are playing at the moment....I really enjoyed early season / caretaker spell.  I’m not enjoying the last 6-8 games (in the main).

I’m not in for slagging Dean in this at the moment his appointment is down to the powers that be. But did you really see such a big difference in the caretaker / early season performances to the last few weeks?  To me the style and standard of football has been little different to LJ across the time Holden’s been in charge. Results were certainly better but the football on offer itself? Not seeing a great deal of difference personally. 

[Hampshire Red]

Noo e can say the football is much better than Ljs bad runs. Everyone, even the pathetic 'Taxi For Lee brigade' who clearly didn't go to games, must acknowledge the better halves of each season under Lj were hugely more entertaining that what we are seeing now. 

Do I support DH? Yes, under the circumstances he's doing a good job in his first season - the table doesn't lie going in to January. 

Are we as entertaining or as threatening away from home as in the previous two seasons? Not a chance. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, cidercity1987 said:

In answer to the second point, 3W 4L is worse as it gives the league 12 points compared to 9 points in the latter

That’s my gut instinct too, although some may argue it might depend on who the results are against.

47 minutes ago, lenred said:

I’m not in for slagging Dean in this at the moment his appointment is down to the powers that be. But did you really see such a big difference in the caretaker / early season performances to the last few weeks?  To me the style and standard of football has been little different to LJ across the time Holden’s been in charge. Results were certainly better but the football on offer itself? Not seeing a great deal of difference personally. 

Yep, huge differences.  Pattens, distances back to front, defensive line, type of chances created, type of chances conceded, partnerships, etc.  I really enjoyed his opening dozen (inc caretaker), then a meh, now I’m finding it a tough watch.

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Bassomylord said:

let me ask you this.

I watched the Salford documentary.....their manager Graham Alexander got sacked....from league 2. He has more success and experience than Holden.....yet 1 gets sacked from that division and 1 is managing Bristol City.

How or what has Holden done to be anywhere near close to this job....crazy. 

Circumstances, purely and simply IMO. If there was no COVID, who knows who would have had the gig, but you have to consider a few things from the 'clubs side.

Every appointment, every single one is a risk. Jose at Man U is a case in point. 
When the job was advertised every applicant was unknown to the board. Even without knowing if they all wanted to completely rebuild the squad or not, without knowing if they all interviewed badly or not. The one thing you can assume is they already knew and trusted Holden. I don't doubt he said he'd work within the clubs guidelines, he already knew them. He also already knew the players, and they, him. 
I can absolutely see some reasoning behind the appointment, also I can see the reasoning behind the rolling year contract. It may look like the cheap option of someone who shouldn't have had a chance of getting the job. I guess all the stars aligned and during a massively difficult time for the Club, they just felt comfortable with Holden. 
I also see this as a trial period, if we can improve he stays, if not (and I'm talking when fans and income is back), we look for the experienced coach we wanted.

[petehinton]

Weimann and Paterson are the difference. People are starting to see how big Weimann is to us now. You don’t play basically every minute for 2 seasons through luck. Had a goal or assist in less than every 3 games. Paterson can change a game in seconds. 

Take that out of a team struggling to score, it’s inevitably going to have a huge impact. I don’t think we will be able fully judge Holden until mid- next season. 

[lenred]

18 minutes ago, petehinton said:

Weimann and Paterson are the difference. People are starting to see how big Weimann is to us now. You don’t play basically every minute for 2 seasons through luck. Had a goal or assist in less than every 3 games. Paterson can change a game in seconds. 

Take that out of a team struggling to score, it’s inevitably going to have a huge impact. I don’t think we will be able fully judge Holden until mid- next season. 

I’d be amazed if he gets another year if performances continue on their current trajectory. But this is City so who knows, you’re probably right.  

[GrahamC]

27 minutes ago, petehinton said:

Weimann and Paterson are the difference. People are starting to see how big Weimann is to us now. You don’t play basically every minute for 2 seasons through luck. Had a goal or assist in less than every 3 games. Paterson can change a game in seconds. 

Take that out of a team struggling to score, it’s inevitably going to have a huge impact. I don’t think we will be able fully judge Holden until mid- next season. 

Agree with that, both are huge players for us & how he wants to play.

We have been incredibly hard hit with injuries, have made some decisions that if we had our time again I doubt we would have made & are probably going to recall a significant number of players next week to bolster the squad.

More than the style of football what has disappointed me is our inability to grit out a few draws against the lesser sides, we just don’t seem to have the personnel to do so.

[Mendip City]

57 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s my gut instinct too, although some may argue it might depend on who the results are against.

Yep, huge differences.  Pattens, distances back to front, defensive line, type of chances created, type of chances conceded, partnerships, etc.  I really enjoyed his opening dozen (inc caretaker), then a meh, now I’m finding it a tough watch.

I’ve an uncomfortable feeling that he’s another manager paralysed bu a fear of losing. A criticism I lay at GJ and LJ.... but not this early in their reign. It doesn’t bode well. He needs to be repeatedly reminded of the “front foot football” line. It’ll see him well in the long run. 

[AshtonGreat]

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

Circumstances, purely and simply IMO. If there was no COVID, who knows who would have had the gig, but you have to consider a few things from the 'clubs side.

Every appointment, every single one is a risk. Jose at Man U is a case in point. 
When the job was advertised every applicant was unknown to the board. Even without knowing if they all wanted to completely rebuild the squad or not, without knowing if they all interviewed badly or not. The one thing you can assume is they already knew and trusted Holden. I don't doubt he said he'd work within the clubs guidelines, he already knew them. He also already knew the players, and they, him. 
I can absolutely see some reasoning behind the appointment, also I can see the reasoning behind the rolling year contract. It may look like the cheap option of someone who shouldn't have had a chance of getting the job. I guess all the stars aligned and during a massively difficult time for the Club, they just felt comfortable with Holden. 
I also see this as a trial period, if we can improve he stays, if not (and I'm talking when fans and income is back), we look for the experienced coach we wanted.

Why? 

[A Horse With No Name]

2 hours ago, Bassomylord said:

let me ask you this.

I watched the Salford documentary.....their manager Graham Alexander got sacked....from league 2. He has more success and experience than Holden.....yet 1 gets sacked from that division and 1 is managing Bristol City.

How or what has Holden done to be anywhere near close to this job....crazy. 

You could say exactly the same about the Bournemouth manager, promoted from assistant at exactly the same time as DH. How are they doing now?

[ohhhshauntaylor]

Great post as ever @Davefevs

My main concern is that prior to this game we had 8 days- so injuries aside Deano had a full week to get a game plan and pattern of play ready for our next run of game. 
Now people will say about injuries, but DH knows more than us about who is/isn’t available- and if what was served up today was the result of a full week of a “game plan” (as alluded to by Adam Nagy in his post mast interview) then that’s a big worry for me  

Two tough away games to come, and the January return of 3-4 loanees looks like our only strengthing of the the squad- I think we’ll be fine, and finish between 10-14th, but that’s no worse than we would’ve been under LJ, and the quality of football is as bad as that tenure.

 

my final point on injuries- Tinnion alluded to the “high intestity 11 v 11” we had this week on the 4g..... seems a bizarre plan on a “break week” to effectively add in such a heavy work load into players who’ve just had 9 games in 29 days? 

 

 

 

[fairweather]

3 hours ago, TomThumb84 said:

Interesting stuff as always Dave.

For me, the difference is time. The longer a good/experienced coach spends with a squad, the better they get.

The longer an inexperienced/unproven coach spends with a group, the more average and laboured they are.

 

That’s a killer- my heart has sunk because you are right. 
 

I was going to post something about Brentford bringing coaches through etc. but you have killed that!!!

[Sheltons Army]

31 minutes ago, ohhhshauntaylor said:

Great post as ever @Davefevs

My main concern is that prior to this game we had 8 days- so injuries aside Deano had a full week to get a game plan and pattern of play ready for our next run of game. 
Now people will say about injuries, but DH knows more than us about who is/isn’t available- and if what was served up today was the result of a full week of a “game plan” (as alluded to by Adam Nagy in his post mast interview) then that’s a big worry for me  

Two tough away games to come, and the January return of 3-4 loanees looks like our only strengthing of the the squad- I think we’ll be fine, and finish between 10-14th, but that’s no worse than we would’ve been under LJ, and the quality of football is as bad as that tenure.

 

my final point on injuries- Tinnion alluded to the “high intestity 11 v 11” we had this week on the 4g..... seems a bizarre plan on a “break week” to effectively add in such a heavy work load into players who’ve just had 9 games in 29 days? 

 

 

 

Good post that

Cant disagree with any of it

Nagy post match said that the full week was great as it meant they were ‘well prepared’ !!

[Bassomylord]

1 hour ago, The Horse With No Name said:

You could say exactly the same about the Bournemouth manager, promoted from assistant at exactly the same time as DH. How are they doing now?

What the same Bournemouth who had been in the prem for what 5 seasons? Seriously please think before posting in the future.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Agree with that, both are huge players for us & how he wants to play.

We have been incredibly hard hit with injuries, have made some decisions that if we had our time again I doubt we would have made & are probably going to recall a significant number of players next week to bolster the squad.

More than the style of football what has disappointed me is our inability to grit out a few draws against the lesser sides, we just don’t seem to have the personnel to do so.

I’d probably say we don’t grit out points against the “gritty” / physical sides rather than lesser sides per se.

Today you could argue we gritted out a win against a lesser side.

I totally get your point though.

Generally we appear to be weak mentally and physically as a team.

I’ve long wondered whether we get the majority of points when it’s dry, and lose when it rains.  

 

[Garland-sweden]

In swedish we say: Du kan ej koka soppa på en spik, you cant make a soup out of a nail. We have problem to get 11 fit players on the pitch. Thinking of that DH and the players are doing a very good job. Its not beautiful we play but the points are coming in, mainthing. End of last season I was pessimistic and thought we would be in the relegation battle this season. Glad Im proven wrong so far.

[Garland-sweden]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Ignoring injuries and fatigue....because we’ve just had 8 days between games.

Stoke City (a) - possibly our best performance of the season.

Today v Wycombe.

Different formation - 442 v 352

Players:

7 the same. Bentley, Hunt, Vyner, Rowe, Bakinson, Wells and Martin

4 different: Kalas / Mawson, O’Dowda / Paterson, Nagy / Weimann and the kinda odd one out Semenyo / Moore

I don’t see enough difference in the personnel, even with injuries to justify the low level of quality we saw today.  Nor am I saying that it’s down to the 4 different players, that would be unfair, nor is that the season.  I’m just trying to make a point that we can hide behind injuries, but the reality is the side put out today should play better.

Hopefully, the win is a confidence booster, and we can start playing better.  I don’t think I’m asking too much.

Second point, is 3W and 4L (9 Pts from 7) better than 2W 3D 2L (9 Pts from 7)?

 

Paterson and Weimann played vs Stoke not yesterday. Those two players are really missing. When Pato is in the mood he is a very good player.

[Engvall’s Splinter]

Paterson has good 25% of games each season. I’ll also never be convinced that Weimann is a Championship centre midfielder. No doubt having them both back would strengthen the squad but that shows how poor, disjointed and devoid of real quality we are. If we are content with mid table obscurity then we continue pinning on our hopes on them returning. If we want to push on, there needs to be a change of personnel in respect of creativity. 
 

Dont get me wrong, I’ll take mid table obscurity and another season in the championship right now. 

[Andy082005]

11 hours ago, Davefevs said:

So are you suggesting it’s all Holden’s fault?  If so, I’m fine if you have that view.

As for his appointment, that’s another question and the world of football throws up surprising appointments.  I like the bloke, think he started well, but he’s made mistakes of late, and I’m happy to criticise him for that. I’m not impressed with how we are playing at the moment....I really enjoyed early season / caretaker spell.  I’m not enjoying the last 6-8 games (in the main).

The football at the start of the season wasn't much better. The main difference was we were winning and challenging 

Let's be honest . Winning tops everything. I don't care if we play crap, if we are winning week in week out, the buzz of being near the top and challenging for promotion more then replaces the buzz of seeing an entertaining game 

Think Gary Johnson play off year. The football wasn't great....yet many remember it now as one of their most memorable seasons 

The real concern for me, is even before our injuries got out of hand....the style of football and pattern of play was no different to the last 3 years. It's now got worse 

 

[chinapig]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I’d probably say we don’t grit out points against the “gritty” / physical sides rather than lesser sides per se.

Today you could argue we gritted out a win against a lesser side.

I totally get your point though.

Generally we appear to be weak mentally and physically as a team.

I’ve long wondered whether we get the majority of points when it’s dry, and lose when it rains.  

 

As it happens I was thinking this yesterday. Perhaps you could do an analysis? Nothing too much, the last 50 years should do!

[1960maaan]

9 hours ago, AshtonGreat said:

Why? 

Underachieving but big, big club. They add a manager with a good track record, who had won Leagues' everywhere. Yet it was not the dream appointment many thought. Loads of money to play with, decent squad to start with but even with 2nd place finish they were 19 points behind the leaders, sacked the year after.
Spend was near £400m

10 hours ago, lenred said:

I’d be amazed if he gets another year if performances continue on their current trajectory. But this is City so who knows, you’re probably right.  

The Lansdown's are known to not be knee jerk when it comes to firing Managers. Then there is how Big Steve was when fans started to turn on LJ. I think he will give him every chance to get through this Injury crisis before he even thinks about it the Coaches position. If he had "his best side" out, I think they would give him plenty of time. Too many things going against managers ATM, many more than when LJ was serving up the same sort of football. He didn't have nearly as many things to blame, I think Holden will be given plenty of time. 
There is always that caveat though, poor performances with results and decent position is ok. Poor performances, defeats and a real table slide would see a different outcome IMO.

[Fpcity]

11 hours ago, petehinton said:

Weimann and Paterson are the difference. People are starting to see how big Weimann is to us now. You don’t play basically every minute for 2 seasons through luck. Had a goal or assist in less than every 3 games. Paterson can change a game in seconds. 

Take that out of a team struggling to score, it’s inevitably going to have a huge impact. I don’t think we will be able fully judge Holden until mid- next season. 

Definitely Weimann. Lots of energy, chips in with goals and assists which no one else in the midfield does. He'd of got double figures in both this season 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

13 hours ago, TomThumb84 said:

Interesting stuff as always Dave.

For me, the difference is time. The longer a good/experienced coach spends with a squad, the better they get.

The longer an inexperienced/unproven coach spends with a group, the more average and laboured they are.

 

Anyone remember Joe Jordan’s first spell as manager?  Took over as caretaker from Terry Cooper late in the season and took us to the play-offs, largely on passion alone.  Next season we had high hopes, but the first half of the season (Scott McGarvey, Gary Stanley etc.) had us tearing our hair out.  Then he signed the unfancied Robbie Turner and followed that a few weeks later with the untested Bob Taylor and suddenly we started to look like a football team.  The next season was one of the best in living memory, but it took him more than a year to learn enough about management to build a successful team and he made some dreadful mistakes along the way.

The moral is that any untested manager needs time.  You can bring in an Allardyce or a Warnock and expect short-term payback, but if you bring in someone inexperienced you HAVE to give them time, unless you are clearly heading for disaster.  We all have our own opinions on selection and tactics, but I haven’t seen too many out and out mistakes from Dean, and I think he is doing well with the resources at his disposal.  If he had a full fit squad and we were in the bottom half of the division, then I might be questioning his future, but the fact is we’re only a point off the playoffs with half our squad unavailable.  Can anyone deny that that in itself is an achievement?

As Brian Tinnion said on Robins TV yesterday, the return of even some of the injured players has the potential to transform this season, so we need to hold to that and the possibility that the longer the season goes on, the better we might get.