A Tale of Two Teams

[mozo]

12 hours ago, petehinton said:

Weimann and Paterson are the difference. People are starting to see how big Weimann is to us now. You don’t play basically every minute for 2 seasons through luck. Had a goal or assist in less than every 3 games. Paterson can change a game in seconds. 

Take that out of a team struggling to score, it’s inevitably going to have a huge impact. I don’t think we will be able fully judge Holden until mid- next season. 

Hmmm...I think you might be massively over-simplifying things here.

Don't forget that Paterson and Weimann were heavily involved in the atrocious performances that ended up with LJ getting sacked. 

And whilst they were rejuvenated when Holden first took over; Paterson thriving on the renewed faith in him and with something to prove, and Weimann also having eventually lost LJ's enduring trust, now a central figure..but hadn't they been reverting to type in their more recent games?

Paterson was becoming anonymous again and Weimann wasteful.

The last game Pato played was an abject 3-1 defeat to Reading; which was very much the direction of travel for our form.

[petehinton]

20 minutes ago, mozo said:

Hmmm...I think you might be massively over-simplifying things here.

Don't forget that Paterson and Weimann were heavily involved in the atrocious performances that ended up with LJ getting sacked. 

And whilst they were rejuvenated when Holden first took over; Paterson thriving on the renewed faith in him and with something to prove, and Weimann also having eventually lost LJ's enduring trust, now a central figure..but hadn't they been reverting to type in their more recent games?

Paterson was becoming anonymous again and Weimann wasteful.

The last game Pato played was an abject 3-1 defeat to Reading; which was very much the direction of travel for our form.

They also scored huge goals under him, what’s your point? Losing the both has meant we’ve gone from 2 attacking midfielders and 1 holding one, to 2 holding ones and 1 winger being played out of position. That’s always going to be detrimental. 
 

Weimann would’ve hit double figure goals again this season. Paterson no matter how hot and cold, still wins games single handily e.g Sheffield Wednesday, and changed/won us the game at Huddersfield. Reading was his last game, yes, but he was also a big part of us being unbeaten in 4 before that...

[Davefevs]

8 hours ago, Garland-sweden said:

Paterson and Weimann played vs Stoke not yesterday. Those two players are really missing. When Pato is in the mood he is a very good player.

Yeah, I think we’ve missed both of them massively.  But I didn’t want to make the post about individuals, as we all have our preferred players, more the point that the eleven player team we put out yesterday wasn’t hugely different, and I don’t think any of the starters aren’t good enough to start most games.

If you add the two eleven’s together you get 15 players most people would be happy with.

4 hours ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Paterson has good 25% of games each season. I’ll also never be convinced that Weimann is a Championship centre midfielder. No doubt having them both back would strengthen the squad but that shows how poor, disjointed and devoid of real quality we are. If we are content with mid table obscurity then we continue pinning on our hopes on them returning. If we want to push on, there needs to be a change of personnel in respect of creativity. 
 

Dont get me wrong, I’ll take mid table obscurity and another season in the championship right now. 

I think the Pato / Weimann combination was unorthodox, unconventional, but when watching those games I didn’t ever think we looked disjointed.  With a more conventional set up of late, I think we now look disjointed.  Funny old game!

4 hours ago, Andy082005 said:

The football at the start of the season wasn't much better. The main difference was we were winning and challenging 

Let's be honest . Winning tops everything. I don't care if we play crap, if we are winning week in week out, the buzz of being near the top and challenging for promotion more then replaces the buzz of seeing an entertaining game 

Think Gary Johnson play off year. The football wasn't great....yet many remember it now as one of their most memorable seasons 

The real concern for me, is even before our injuries got out of hand....the style of football and pattern of play was no different to the last 3 years. It's now got worse 

 

I saw huge differences, I enjoyed watching us earlier this season, and that wasn’t just result.  Chalk and cheese performance-wise and technically too.

1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Anyone remember Joe Jordan’s first spell as manager?  Took over as caretaker from Terry Cooper late in the season and took us to the play-offs, largely on passion alone.  Next season we had high hopes, but the first half of the season (Scott McGarvey, Gary Stanley etc.) had us tearing our hair out.  Then he signed the unfancied Robbie Turner and followed that a few weeks later with the untested Bob Taylor and suddenly we started to look like a football team.  The next season was one of the best in living memory, but it took him more than a year to learn enough about management to build a successful team and he made some dreadful mistakes along the way.

The moral is that any untested manager needs time.  You can bring in an Allardyce or a Warnock and expect short-term payback, but if you bring in someone inexperienced you HAVE to give them time, unless you are clearly heading for disaster.  We all have our own opinions on selection and tactics, but I haven’t seen too many out and out mistakes from Dean, and I think he is doing well with the resources at his disposal.  If he had a full fit squad and we were in the bottom half of the division, then I might be questioning his future, but the fact is we’re only a point off the playoffs with half our squad unavailable.  Can anyone deny that that in itself is an achievement?

As Brian Tinnion said on Robins TV yesterday, the return of even some of the injured players has the potential to transform this season, so we need to hold to that and the possibility that the longer the season goes on, the better we might get.

We are three points off the play-offs but your point stands.  I’m still well behind Dean, and we will learn much more about him through this window and when a couple of players return (please).

I don’t call it “mid table obscurity”, I see it as “on the fringes of the play-offs” at the mo’.

[mozo]

1 hour ago, petehinton said:

They also scored huge goals under him, what’s your point? Losing the both has meant we’ve gone from 2 attacking midfielders and 1 holding one, to 2 holding ones and 1 winger being played out of position. That’s always going to be detrimental. 
 

Weimann would’ve hit double figure goals again this season. Paterson no matter how hot and cold, still wins games single handily e.g Sheffield Wednesday, and changed/won us the game at Huddersfield. Reading was his last game, yes, but he was also a big part of us being unbeaten in 4 before that...

My point is that I dispute your claim that "Weimann and Paterson are the difference".

My personal opinion is that Weimann and Paterson are good players to have in the squad and can be effective if used correctly.

But I don't see them as players who are essential to our success, the missing links in the current team or even players I would necessarily start in the majority of games when available. 

I'm sure you could point out their better games and spells of form, and I could point out the opposite.

I definitely haven't seen evidence of them being the two players that could turn the current team into play off contenders. 

Weimann might have hit double figures. Who knows. Paterson definitely can win you games with a touch of class, but will you have lost equal points when he drifts into the ether in other games?

I just think pointing to Weimann and Paterson as the answer to the problem is a bit of a stretch. Too many players have underperformed in games this season for it to be all about those two.

[shepton red]

What I do not understand is the role of the 2 coaches that were hired to assist DH. They are highly regarded, experienced and knowledgeable and should fill in the gaps that the inexperienced DH inevitably has. Surely they should be influencing the way that we play; although I have to say that the form of NW is an enigma and I do not buy the theory that he does not want to be at City.

So what influence do they both have over DH and is he listening to their advice? For me I would abandon NW on the wing and make him the lone striker with CM playing as a number 10 sat in the hole.

[bexhill reds]

5 minutes ago, mozo said:

My point is that I dispute your claim that "Weimann and Paterson are the difference".

My personal opinion is that Weimann and Paterson are good players to have in the squad and can be effective if used correctly.

But I don't see them as players who are essential to our success, the missing links in the current team or even players I would necessarily start in the majority of games when available. 

I'm sure you could point out their better games and spells of form, and I could point out the opposite.

I definitely haven't seen evidence of them being the two players that could turn the current team into play off contenders. 

Weimann might have hit double figures. Who knows. Paterson definitely can win you games with a touch of class, but will you have lost equal points when he drifts into the ether in other games?

I just think pointing to Weimann and Paterson as the answer to the problem is a bit of a stretch. Too many players have underperformed in games this season for it to be all about those two.

Personally I think Weimann brings more than he contributes, appreciate that makes no sense but I’ll try to explain, his pace and movement creates space and opposing teams can’t just let him run and end up being unmarked, this then pulls teams out of shape allowing out other players to do their thing, such as Pato or Bakinson who can play a pass to create opportunities for others.

I don’t think it can be any coincidence that our mediocrity right now is linked to his absence

[Lanterne Rouge]

1 hour ago, bexhill reds said:

Personally I think Weimann brings more than he contributes, appreciate that makes no sense but I’ll try to explain, his pace and movement creates space and opposing teams can’t just let him run and end up being unmarked, this then pulls teams out of shape allowing out other players to do their thing, such as Pato or Bakinson who can play a pass to create opportunities for others.

I don’t think it can be any coincidence that our mediocrity right now is linked to his absence

From where I sit in the SS just to the left of the goal it is noticeable that when he pulls wide right pretty much every time two defenders go with him leaving space in the middle - which we don`t often exploit in fairness!

[Hampshire Red]

Why the surprise? We have a young manager who has no reason to do as well as Lee Johnson. His team have been decimated by injuries yet he can, and has got us to have a chance in every single game so far except Norwich. 

That is surely more than anyone expected? 

[Garland-sweden]

2 hours ago, mozo said:

My point is that I dispute your claim that "Weimann and Paterson are the difference".

My personal opinion is that Weimann and Paterson are good players to have in the squad and can be effective if used correctly.

But I don't see them as players who are essential to our success, the missing links in the current team or even players I would necessarily start in the majority of games when available. 

I'm sure you could point out their better games and spells of form, and I could point out the opposite.

I definitely haven't seen evidence of them being the two players that could turn the current team into play off contenders. 

Weimann might have hit double figures. Who knows. Paterson definitely can win you games with a touch of class, but will you have lost equal points when he drifts into the ether in other games?

I just think pointing to Weimann and Paterson as the answer to the problem is a bit of a stretch. Too many players have underperformed in games this season for it to be all about those two.

Each player in our team is important, Some of them have not performed good, therefore it is easy to see that Weimann and Pato is very missing. Both can score and have assists. Weimann is a man who can run 90 min in defensive and going forward. We wil see what happens in januari, Walsh a long way to be in the starting eleven, Williams maybe out rest of the season. Adelakun, Palmer and the defender in Portsmouth back?

[Hampshire Red]

Sorry if this appears pedantic but you should never desrcibe Wells as bang average: that means there are as many worse than him in the Championship as there are better and I require evidence of one single player who's control is as bad as NW. The stunning ball from Bako was on to his stride yet he shinned it 30yds - anyone on the Downs would have been dropped for that. 

When Fam, our best forward and scorer for 3 seasons came on, he wins headers, sets up play, lays off fantastic touches (watch the ball to Semenyo) and does what others don't - BOOM!!!  

Noone on here wants to criticise a young, new manager nad Wells was inherited. Playing him keeps him in the window but that means we play with. 10every time and the league is too tight for that - just about every game settled by max one goal. 

[mozo]

7 hours ago, bexhill reds said:

Personally I think Weimann brings more than he contributes, appreciate that makes no sense but I’ll try to explain, his pace and movement creates space and opposing teams can’t just let him run and end up being unmarked, this then pulls teams out of shape allowing out other players to do their thing, such as Pato or Bakinson who can play a pass to create opportunities for others.

I don’t think it can be any coincidence that our mediocrity right now is linked to his absence

I agree that you've highlighted what Weimann's strengths are, but I still think it is a coincidence! Massively so.